Author Topic: newcomer from HBO with some questions! (Read 12721 times)

kallyn · « **on:** November 27, 2006, 01:55:41 pm »

Hi guys.

I just saw Brokeback randomly for the first time last night on HBO, and then watched it again on demand this morning after I couldn't get it out of my head! I've been reading threads in here last night and today and I was pleased that I caught a lot of the little details on my first watching. The second was even richer in depth. Anyway, I noticed a few things that I was wondering about:

1) Lureen's hair. Every time you see her and time has passed, it becomes more and more styled and more and more blonde (also her makeup keeps getting heavier). Is there any significance to this? Maybe her appearance is becoming faker as her marriage is becoming faker? I searched the forum for "lureen's hair" but nothing came up.

2) Right before Ennis starts trying to beat that guy up outside of the bar, he pulls up in his truck and it only has one working headlight. There's gotta be a reason for that, right? It doesn't seem like anything in this movie is insignificant.

Also, in my first viewing I thought that Ennis had said "I'm sorry" in the tent scene, but on the second viewing I thought that Jack said it. I guess it just means that I'll have to watch it again OH DARN.

uhketchup · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2006, 02:07:44 pm »

Welcome to the board

1) Agreed with your interpretation there, definitiely signifies her growing superficiality in contrast to the ever-deep relationship between Jack and Ennis

2) Hadn't thought about the second headlight, and so I'm not going to make a pretentious, tenuous point to support it!

And the whole Ennis "I'm sorry" theory is still ambiguous I'm afraid - I like to think he says it though, hence the heartbreaking reply "It's alright" from Jack - simplicity is best.

I can assure you, your first viewing will most certainly not be the last!

nakymaton · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2006, 02:09:35 pm »

Welcome, kallyn.

About Lureen's hair: I think Anne Hathaway said something about it in an interview... something about how, as time goes by, Jack turns to the liquor bottle and Lureen turns to the peroxide bottle.

But, yeah, I agree that it's a sign that the marriage is becoming more and more fake, or that Lureen is trying to find some way to become more attractive because she knows she doesn't have Jack's attention.

About the headlight: whoa! I've never heard anyone discuss that detail before, I don't think. As for reasons... hmmm. Well, partly it shows that Ennis isn't doing very well financially. And, hmmm, broken lights or electrical things. Maybe the spark isn't quite there when Ennis isn't around Jack? (Somebody else will do a better job interpreting that one, I'm sure.

) (Heh... I just read uhketchup's response, but I'll go out on a limb and make pretentious, tenuous points.

Hopefully somebody will tell me if they don't make any sense.)

And the dialogue in the 2nd tent scene is one of the Great Mysteries of the Brokeback Mountain Cult, I think. That, and how exactly Jack died. And whether Jack really quit Ennis. And...

uhketchup · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2006, 02:19:17 pm »

Nakymaton, neither pretentious nor tenuous - I'm impressed

ednbarby · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2006, 02:22:56 pm »

... And whether Ennis says "I love you" into the shirts in Jack's room...

Welcome, Kallyn! It's so nice to see a post today from a brand new viewer/admirer brought to us by my heroes at HBO.

I agree quite a bit with what's been said here so far - that Lureen keeps lightening her hair, literally, to try to feel attractive/get Jack's attention and figuratively, to me, because she symbolizes fire and her hair getting lighter and lighter is symbolic of her fire going out and turning to ash.

Someone back on the old IMDb board many months ago posted a beautiful piece called "The Elements" - if anyone can find it, please post it, but in the meantime I'll attempt rather lamely to paraphrase it:

Alma is water - like a bubbling brook when we first meet her but over time still and cold as a frozen lake

Lureen is fire - burning brightly at first but over time reduced to glowing embers, and then to ash, as evidenced in her ever lightening hair

Jack is air - as fresh as a cool breeze when we first meet him, but then quieted over time only to be buried forever in the Earth.

Ennis is the Earth.

Front-Ranger · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2006, 02:43:21 pm »

Welcome kallyn!! You'll have a cuppa coffee won't you? Piece of cherry cake?

Re: yr questions...Did you notice at the very end that Lureen's hair was actually white and all feathery around her face like angel's wings? And how her lips and nails were very red and her nails were as long as talons? Anyway, that's my take on it. But I also agree with what naky and the others said about Lureen's increasing blondness and iciness/ashiness.

No, I never noticed about the headlight being out--good observation. What do you think it means? It would be great if you could post about this on the ffzzzt ~~ electricity references topic on this same forum. Also, look at the topic about hard-to-hear phrases for a long discussion about the "I'm sorry/s'awlright" controversy...I think there's actually a poll about it (I heard I'm sorry too, but I thot Jack said it).

moremojo · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2006, 02:44:35 pm »

Quote from: ednbarby on November 27, 2006, 02:22:56 pm

Alma is water - like a bubbling brook when we first meet her but over time still and cold as a frozen lake

Lureen is fire - burning brightly at first but over time reduced to glowing embers, and then to ash, as evidenced in her ever lightening hair

Jack is air - as fresh as a cool breeze when we first meet him, but then quieted over time only to be buried forever in the Earth.

Ennis is the Earth.

Most interesting to read about the ladies; I had only previously been familiar with the Ennis-as-earth/Jack-as-air symbolism. One might add that the earth (Ennis) is shaped and changed forever by the sometimes subtle but ever relentless power of the wind (Jack).

Shakesthecoffecan · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2006, 04:22:32 pm »

Really good observations folks. I had noticed the head light out, but choked it up to Ennis's poverty, and the hair, yes, it grows lighter and lighter, I had noticed that and thought of it as her becoming more and more plastic, detached from reality which culminates in her presentation to Ennis of her version of the facts surrounding Jack's death.

I believe Ennis says to Jack: "I'm sorry" in the second tent scene. About what? His nervousness? Lack of experence? It is wide open to interpretation.

Recently while I was watching I noticed both Ennis and Jack were seperatly wearing "Bolero" ties, those string thingies, at their Thanksgiving dinners. I zoomed in on them and saw Ennis's was a horse head, but Jack's I am still trying to figure out.

You are right fiend, this movie is loaded with symbolism.

southendmd · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2006, 06:46:49 pm »

Welcome, kallyn.

Here's my take on the missing headlight: It could be a simple symbol that Ennis is incomplete without Jack, and Alma had just brought that to the front of his mind.

Paul

Phillip Dampier · « **Reply #9 on:** November 27, 2006, 07:08:26 pm »

Welcome to all of our newcomers! It was less than a year ago when a lot of us were sitting in the same daze you guys are feeling right now about this movie. We understand it completely. Our moderators are going to try and "bump" posts from the forum's earlier days to the top so you can see what we were coping with just a few months ago.

Most of all, I can tell you that while you will eventually not spend hour after hour dwelling on the movie, it will change your life permanently. It certainly did with me, which is why we've built this online community. It's our hope you will find a home with us here both now and well into the future, as we've all made tremendous new friendships online and off!

twistedude · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2006, 07:35:33 pm »

Hi--I suppose Ennis hadn't the time, inclination or maybe even the money to get his headlight fixed. There was a game played in northern California about 1953--when two people were out on a date, and one saw a one-light car, he/she/he would try to say "Pedille!" before the other, and was supposed to be rewarded with a kiss.

How irrelevant can you get?

yeah, 1953...I'm 71.

ednbarby · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2006, 08:36:36 pm »

Sounds sorta like the game we played while driving when I was a kid called "Punch Bug." Anybody heard of that one? Whenever you saw a VW bug, whoever yelled "Punch Bug!" first got to punch the other person in the arm. I grew up with some mighty bruised arms.

David In Indy · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2006, 08:52:38 pm »

Quote from: ednbarby on November 27, 2006, 08:36:36 pm

Sounds sorta like the game we played while driving when I was a kid called "Punch Bug." Anybody heard of that one? Whenever you saw a VW bug, whoever yelled "Punch Bug!" first got to punch the other person in the arm. I grew up with some mighty bruised arms.

Welcome to BetterMost Kallyn!

Barb, I remember that game. But we didn't punch each other in the arm. We simply counted the number of VW bettles we saw. It was very easy to do. Back then there were so many of them. It seemed as if every other person on the road was driving a VW beetle. Because of this we would sometimes choose a certain color of beetle to count instead. It was a great way to help pass the time during our many trips from Indianapolis to Cincinnati. 2 hours can be a very long time to a 10 year old stuck in the back seat of a car.

David · « **Reply #13 on:** November 27, 2006, 09:11:08 pm »

First of all, WELCOME ABOARD!

Wow! I was just thinking about Ennis and that truck with the burnt out headlamp today!

I'm not sure if it was intentional or not. I can almost here the property master telling Ang Lee that there is a delay in filming because the lamp was burned out, then Ang shouts :" NO! that is perfect! It shows how poor Ennis is."

Or perhaps Ang Lee was using the one lamp to represent that Ennis was going thru life with one eye closed?

Noviani · « **Reply #14 on:** November 27, 2006, 10:20:10 pm »

Welcome Kallyn!

the more you watch BBM, the more you spend a quality time in BetterMost, the richer the experience is.

There is always a new reason to re-watch!

visit Lighter side and fantasy scene. they are fun (once you get over the grief...)

Novi

Phillip Dampier · « **Reply #15 on:** November 27, 2006, 10:26:44 pm »

For many of us, the movie's impact really hit after the movie ended. For me it was coming home in the car from the theatre. I was stunned silent. The next morning in the shower, I fell apart and started sobbing. It was an incredible and profound experience for me. I spent at least a week wandering in a complete daze in shock. No movie ever hit me the way Brokeback did... not even close. I posted a message of the stages of coming to terms with the film which I hope new folks may find useful.

CoyotePiper · « **Reply #16 on:** November 27, 2006, 10:38:59 pm »

Quote

2) Right before Ennis starts trying to beat that guy up outside of the bar, he pulls up in his truck and it only has one working headlight. There's gotta be a reason for that, right? It doesn't seem like anything in this movie is insignificant.

Here is the IMDB discussion on the burned headlights/taillights.

I (Balrog over there) gave an argument as to why there is no way these cars would have burned lights unless it was deliberate.

Brown Eyes · « **Reply #17 on:** November 27, 2006, 10:55:36 pm »

Let me add my welcome to the chorus already here... And Front Ranger beat me to it, but I'll say it again... Want a cup of coffee don't you? And a piece of cherry cake?

Quote from: ednbarby on November 27, 2006, 02:22:56 pm

I agree quite a bit with what's been said here so far - that Lureen keeps lightening her hair, literally, to try to feel attractive/get Jack's attention and figuratively, to me, because she symbolizes fire and her hair getting lighter and lighter is symbolic of her fire going out and turning to ash.

This is my favorite interpretation of Lureen's hair situation. I love, love, love, the idea that she goes from red and white to black and white by the end. Gradually her reds get watered down and the impact really is something like fire dwindling to ash. I'm not so sure her desire to dye her hair as to do with getting Jack's attention. I think she wants attention, yes, but in a general sense. I think she's resigned to the distant relationship with Jack quite early on.

Kallyn, there are all sorts of fun discussions all over the place about the different colors that seem to be associated with different characters (those are big topics and I'm sure you'll have fun discovering all those nuances). Lureen's hair is a really good detail to notice.

And, congrats, I hadn't heard the headlight discussion come up before either. You're certainly correct that almost any detail you can think of in this movie/ story is loaded with potential significance.

mlewisusc · « **Reply #18 on:** November 28, 2006, 12:12:50 am »

Kallyn, welcome!

I am a not so frequent poster anymore who misses my time spent here at Bettermost. The headlight observation is also totally new to me. As to the hair, I agree (or defer) to the other posters on this thread. As to the "I'm Sorry/S'allright" debate, I have to weigh in. Heath's lips DO NOT move - Jake says "S'allright" three times. Just my take. I still love everyone who thinks they hear Heath say "Sorry" - but it's fantasy IMHO.

As a HUGE proponent of the story, may I suggest you get a copy and read it? I hope you enjoy it as much as I have! I know you can order several different versions on Amazon. If I was good with these things I'd provide a link; as it stands, I'll have to leave that courtesy to some other member more technically skilled than I.

nakymaton · « **Reply #19 on:** November 28, 2006, 12:23:35 am »

I don't know if the original story is still available online... I think it may have been taken down due to copyright issues.

I'm not sure I would recommend the story immediately after seeing the movie for the first time (even though I'm also a huge fan of the story). The story is so short, and so deliberately unsentimental... I think a lot of people have found it disappointing after going through the emotional wringer of the movie. Maybe it's better to let the movie's power run its course, and then deal with the story.

(But for anyone who's obsessed enough to want everything, the Brokeback Mountain: Story to Screenplay book has both the original short story and the movie script, plus essays by the screenwriters and Annie Proulx... and Annie Proulx's essay, in particular, is a fantastic read.)

kallyn · « **Reply #20 on:** November 28, 2006, 01:23:59 am »

Wow you guys, thanks for the warm welcome!!

Coffee'd be real nice.

Quote from: twistedude on November 27, 2006, 07:35:33 pm

...in northern California about 1953--when two people were out on a date, and one saw a one-light car, he/she/he would try to say "Pedille!" before the other, and was supposed to be rewarded with a kiss.

That is so funny! My sister and her friends yell out "pediddle" when they see a broken headlight (almost the same word, but not quite), and then everyone is supposed to hit the roof of the car with their hand. Bizarre that the tradition lived on in so convoluted a way, eh? (for reference, I am 23 and my sister is 19)

I am surprised that Ennis's broken headlight is news to so many. I'll go post over on the electricy thread like front-ranger suggested to see what all those fine folk come up with.

I just cannot get these two cowboys out of my head. I didn't go through grief though - I think on the first watching, I didn't really believe that Jack was dead. I mean, movies don't work like that, you know? Main characters don't just die quietly offscreen. And then on the second watching I knew what to expect and I just had a sick resignedness about it. Now I feel more of a nauseous kind of bone-deep sadness. I'm glad I haven't cried, or I'd have to start trying to explain myself to people. I'll probably check out the short story, but I want to movie to finish digesting first...

Brown Eyes · « **Reply #21 on:** November 28, 2006, 01:39:53 am »

Heya Kallyn! We're glad to have you here! Quite impressive observations indeed for only having seen the film a few times.

Yup, thinking about BBM all the time and the "bone-deep sadness" are both some of the first symptoms of Brokeback Fever.

I forgot to weigh in on the "I'm sorry" issue before... I'm in the camp of people who definitely hear "I'm sorry" coming from Ennis. I swear (no pun intended) that I heard it all 5 times in the theatre. It never even crossed my mind to question it until I started reading some of the online debates. But, I can understand why some people don't think it's there.

Daniel · « **Reply #22 on:** November 28, 2006, 01:46:15 am »

I noticed the missing right headlight about my 16th time in the theater... Anyone who has been around long enough to know me will know that I have a tendency to read too much into something, but now that another person has found it, I feel like I can share my views on this scene. Actually, I'll just throw out some points of consideration, and let you come to your own conclusions... I really do not like telling other people what to think.

Zechariah 11:17

"Woe to the worthless shepherd who leaves the flock! A sword will be on his arm and on his right eye! His arm will be totally withered. And his right eye will be blind!"

I also seem to remember that when Ennis got out of the truck he was cradling one of his arms... When he punched the other man he used the same hand repeatedly but I don't recall seeing the other arm or hand.

Matthew 5:29

"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

The right eye is controlled by the left side of the brain, which has typically been viewed as controlling connectivity, rationality, language and discipline while the right side of the brain has more emotional, less analytical processes. The absence of the right light or left-mindedness may be a part of the visual cues given to indicate that Ennis is in a blind rage.

Other possible correlations:

blindness of the right (conservative political/religious/social views as in right wing).

the conflict/antithesis of light and dark (eros and thanatos).

Lynne · « **Reply #23 on:** November 28, 2006, 03:28:26 am »

Daniel - Those are just fabulous obseravations! You are the master! I hadn't even considered the Biblical references, but they're plain as day, aren't they?

Quote from: atz75 on November 28, 2006, 01:39:53 am

I forgot to weigh in on the "I'm sorry" issue before... I'm in the camp of people who definitely hear "I'm sorry" coming from Ennis. I swear (no pun intended) that I heard it all 5 times in the theatre. It never even crossed my mind to question it until I started reading some of the online debates. But, I can understand why some people don't think it's there.

I'm in the camp of people who hear "I'm sorry" from Ennis and Two "S'allright's" from Jack. I know Ennis' lips do not move

. I hear it anyway. I think Ennis is apologizing for his abrupt departure on the 'morning after' and his earlier rejection of Jack.

kallyn · « **Reply #24 on:** November 28, 2006, 11:28:34 am »

Quote from: Lynne on November 28, 2006, 03:28:26 am

I'm in the camp of people who hear "I'm sorry" from Ennis and Two "S'allright's" from Jack. I know Ennis' lips do not move . I hear it anyway. I think Ennis is apologizing for his abrupt departure on the 'morning after' and his earlier rejection of Jack.

Quote from: atz75 on November 28, 2006, 01:39:53 am

I forgot to weigh in on the "I'm sorry" issue before... I'm in the camp of people who definitely hear "I'm sorry" coming from Ennis. I swear (no pun intended) that I heard it all 5 times in the theatre. It never even crossed my mind to question it until I started reading some of the online debates. But, I can understand why some people don't think it's there.

My initial impression before I ever came to these boards was that Ennis was saying "I'm sorry" and then Jack said "s'alright." I also thought that Ennis's "I'm sorry" encompassed a lot of (sometimes contradictory) things - he was sorry that he was coming on to Jack because guys aren't supposed to do that, he was sorry for being skittish and inexperienced, he was sorry for ignoring Jack earlier. I also think it was a way to gauge Jack's feelings by seeing what his reaction to the "sorry" was.

Kelda · « **Reply #25 on:** November 28, 2006, 11:41:32 am »

welsome callyn.

If you want to read the original short story I have a copy I can email you. just PM me.

as for your reacton very similar to mine. thougth it was v sad movie and good, has a few tears in my eyes at the film. and then it just kept coming back to me over the next few days... and I joined IMDB and it all went from there

mlewisusc · « **Reply #26 on:** November 29, 2006, 01:03:55 am »

So many, many folks here now (and on the old IMDB boards) really had this experience - after the first viewing of the film, not such a big reaction - but within 48 hours to seven days later, absolute sadness, and unwavering fascination. Be prepared for a difficult but worthwhile emotional roller coaster ride, and an intense interest that borders on obsession.

serious crayons · « **Reply #27 on:** November 29, 2006, 04:56:30 pm »

Getting back to Lureen's hair for a moment. Some people here may be too young to know this -- and actually I almost am, myself -- but back in the '50s and '60s women who felt the spark was going out of their marriage were routinely advised to lighten their hair. There's an old "Dick Van Dyke Show" about this (Laura decides to bleach her hair because she feels Rob's interest is waning, but changes her mind midway through and winds up with hair that's half platinum blonde, half brunette). And I recently read "The Feminine Mystique" (1963) and saw a mention there of women doing this.

So what a great metaphor! Not only is it an actual historical practice, but it's a physical manifestation of Lureen's increasing brittleness and dependence on superficial appearance.

brokebackjack · « **Reply #28 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:33:45 am »

Not only that re Lureen's hair, but it symbolised how the life and color was draining out of her soul from the stresses of being married to Jack.

Brown Eyes · « **Reply #29 on:** November 30, 2006, 08:55:57 pm »

Quote from: latjoreme on November 29, 2006, 04:56:30 pm

Getting back to Lureen's hair for a moment. Some people here may be too young to know this -- and actually I almost am, myself -- but back in the '50s and '60s women who felt the spark was going out of their marriage were routinely advised to lighten their hair. There's an old "Dick Van Dyke Show" about this (Laura decides to bleach her hair because she feels Rob's interest is waning, but changes her mind midway through and winds up with hair that's half platinum blonde, half brunette). And I recently read "The Feminine Mystique" (1963) and saw a mention there of women doing this.

So what a great metaphor! Not only is it an actual historical practice, but it's a physical manifestation of Lureen's increasing brittleness and dependence on superficial appearance.

Hey Katherine!

Thanks Bud! That's quite an interesting little bit of social history. It certainly makes lots of sense in the context of the movie. Maybe her lightened hair is also a comment on the conservative environment that they were all living in... (behind the times, etc.). I mean Lureen's hair was in its most dramatic stages of getting progressively lighter in the late '70s and early '80s.

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Author Topic: newcomer from HBO with some questions! (Read 12721 times)

moremojo