The Infamous Electric Carving Knife - A Moment of Levity

[Jeff Wrangler]

Well, very few of us are as free of stereotypes and prejudices as we like to think we are. And while Ennis and Jack may challenge masculine stereotypes in terms of sexuality, someone like Monroe doesn't fit the stereotypes much better.  The actor has an unfortunate arrangement of features, described variously as bland and baby-faced, that would lead people to make negative assumptions about him. In a traditional Western movie, Monroe would have been the Western town's general storekeeper; here, he's translated into the Riverton grocer who wears an apron and knows what "condiments" are.  IMO, this character gives viewers who might feel some uneasiness about the implied challenges to American/Western/masculine stereotypes a kind of safety valve: now, here's a character that one can safely consider a "sissy" -- he even uses an electric knife.  That isn't a comment about BBM fans generally and certainly not about anyone on this thread, but Monroe, in addition to being a necessary plot device, does serve the classic dramatic function of a "foil."  And I guess it's possible that Ang Lee did intend that, come to think of it.

Of course, this character isn't much developed in the movie and even less in the ss, but I'd really question as to whether he can be considered "less of a man" than some of the other characters, especially Lureen's father. The "stud duck" displayes his perceived masculinity by dissing his son-in-law and insisting on carving poultry; Monroe is willing to have his stepdaughters' father at Thanksgiving dinner. And for that matter, he was willing to hang in there and wait for the woman he loved.

Well, I guess we've meandered pretty far from slicing up that turkey.....  

Not to mention, too, that Monroe apparently does a better job of supporting a family on his own, whereas Ennis is pretty much of a dud in that respect, and Jack rides the coattails of his father-in-law and his wife.

But sure enough, in Monroe we have the sissy storekeeper who knows what a condiment is, watches figure skating with his step-daughters, and uses a parvenu electric carving knife--and he's straight, whereas our macho stereotypical Western heroes sleep with each other.

[Brown Eyes]

Not to mention, too, that Monroe apparently does a better job of supporting a family on his own, whereas Ennis is pretty much of a dud in that respect, and Jack rides the coattails of his father-in-law and his wife.

But sure enough, in Monroe we have the sissy storekeeper who knows what a condiment is, watches figure skating with his step-daughters, and uses a parvenu electric carving knife--and he's straight, whereas our macho stereotypical Western heroes sleep with each other.

Yep, this is pretty much exactly how I see it.

(Although, at least it can be said that Ennis isn't a complete dud in terms of supporting his family... he at least feels a sense of responsibility about it... eventhough he's not very effective at actually generating a lot of money for them).

[Jeff Wrangler]

(Although, at least it can be said that Ennis isn't a complete dud in terms of supporting his family... he at least feels a sense of responsibility about it... eventhough he's not very effective at actually generating a lot of money for them).

Sure enough. Why I said dud instead of dead-beat, because he surely isn't a "dead-beat dad." He just doesn't do a very good job of it, and economics is clearly one of the reasons Alma leaves him.

[Brown Eyes]

Sure enough. Why I said dud instead of dead-beat, because he surely isn't a "dead-beat dad." He just doesn't do a very good job of it, and economics is clearly one of the reasons Alma leaves him.

OK!  Sure enough -  right back atcha!

[serious crayons]

It's interesting to examine stereotypes about masculinity as they apply to Monroe, and I don't think I've ever seen this discussion take place explicitly before.

I think clearly Ang Lee deliberately send signals that Monroe is "sissified" -- the babyish look, the apron, the electric knife, the figure skating, the fact that he takes a suspiciously long time to rush to Alma's aid when she screams for him from the kitchen.

The question is, what is Ang trying to say?

In a traditional Western movie, Monroe would have been the Western town's general storekeeper; here, he's translated into the Riverton grocer who wears an apron and knows what "condiments" are.  IMO, this character gives viewers who might feel some uneasiness about the implied challenges to American/Western/masculine stereotypes a kind of safety valve: now, here's a character that one can safely consider a "sissy" -- he even uses an electric knife.  That isn't a comment about BBM fans generally and certainly not about anyone on this thread, but Monroe, in addition to being a necessary plot device, does serve the classic dramatic function of a "foil."  And I guess it's possible that Ang Lee did intend that, come to think of it.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, but it sounds like you're attributing Monroe's "sissy" characteristics to slightly different motivations than I would. I agree (with what I think you're saying) that in the traditional Western, Monroe's role would be to set off the "masculinity" of the main characters -- the sheriff or marshal or bad guys. He's not going to be the one reaching for his pistol in the middle of Main Street at high noon, or throwing the bad guy down the bar, whiskey glasses flying -- he's going to be hiding behind the bar or cowering in the grocery store with the women folk.

But I think Monroe's role is more complex in BBM, and I don't think he's there just to give insecure viewers some comic relief. Yes, in some respects, he makes Ennis look tough by comparison. Imagine him trying to shoot an elk. Or how he'd react to the bikers at the 4th of July.

And yet, as others have pointed out, Monroe expresses his "masculinity" in a different way. The "sissy" can get his wife pregnant and support the children after the "tough guy" has failed to do so. When Ennis displays classic tough-guy behavior -- when he beats up the bikers or fights the truck-driver outside the bar -- he's motivated quite directly by insecurity regarding his sexuality. Similarly, I think Monroe's character is another way of turning traditional images on end, showing that people aren't always what they seem and that our assumptions about those stereotypes can be wrong.

[Brown Eyes]

I often wonder about Monroe in relation to the question of Alma's happiness too.  Given that Monroe and Ennis are so different... is it implied here that she's "settling" for Monroe?  I mean he's a nice guy and can provide her with stability... but is really probably not the man of Alma's dreams.  Are both Ennis and Monroe about Alma's disappointments... but in two very different ways?

I wonder if Alma represents a big trend for a lot of women (when it comes to Monroe)... the desire for stability over almost everything else.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I often wonder about Monroe in relation to the question of Alma's happiness too.  Given that Monroe and Ennis are so different... is it implied here that she's "settling" for Monroe?  I mean he's a nice guy and can provide her with stability... but is really probably not the man of Alma's dreams.  Are both Ennis and Monroe about Alma's disappointments... but in two very different ways?

I wonder if Alma represents a big trend for a lot of women (when it comes to Monroe)... the desire for stability over almost everything else.

Tell you what, reading the first part of the post, I was reminded of a comment Annie Proulx made about both Alma and Lureen learning some hard lessons about life. Maybe Ennis was initially Alma's dream man; I'm not sure we can know that, even though she married him. Yet from her perspective he turned out to be a dud. Settling is a sad word, however accurate it might be. As a divorced mother of two with no education and no prospects in the Wyoming of the 1970s, she could have done a lot worse than a sweet guy who loves her and can provide some financial security for her and her kids, not to mention a much better home than that cruddy apartment--even if it is a bit fusty and old-fashioned.

I'll let someone else address the concept of stability, although I wonder whether security might be a better word here.

[Brown Eyes]

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I agree with what you just wrote.  It's true that Alma may not have felt like she had many options following the divorce.  And, maybe there really weren't even that many available/ somewhat-appealing single men for her to choose from in Riverton anyway.  Also, yes, you're right that Monroe seems like a sweet and responsible guy.

I do think sometimes and even often the quest for stability or security (I think both terms apply very well here) comes at a sacrifice with regard to personal happiness in terms of dreams and ideals/ passion.  The extreme pragmatism of the concepts of stability and security seem at odds with a sense of risk/drama/passion/freedom (etc.) that might be associated with a more bold dream or ideal.  And, again, I think women often make this sacrifice... and a woman like Alma was probably raised to do so.

It's true that we don't know a lot about what Alma's personal dreams (I mean her vision of her personal "sweet life" or "cow and calf operation") might be.  Maybe they never extended beyond a simple life in Riverton as a wife and mother.

[serious crayons]

Tell you what, reading the first part of the post, I was reminded of a comment Annie Proulx made about both Alma and Lureen learning some hard lessons about life. Maybe Ennis was initially Alma's dream man; I'm not sure we can know that, even though she married him. Yet from her perspective he turned out to be a dud. Settling is a sad word, however accurate it might be. As a divorced mother of two with no education and no prospects in the Wyoming of the 1970s, she could have done a lot worse than a sweet guy who loves her and can provide some financial security for her and her kids, not to mention a much better home than that cruddy apartment--even if it is a bit fusty and old-fashioned.

I'll let someone else address the concept of stability, although I wonder whether security might be a better word here.

Good point, Jeff. A even happier spin on it might be that Alma is established early on as someone who places importance on financial security and the comfortable life it buys. She cajoles Ennis for an apartment in town, takes a job (the story's "saw she'd always have to work to keep ahead of the bills on what Ennis made" suggests a certain bitterness), warns Ennis against upsetting the foreman, says she'd have kids if he'd support 'em, promptly marries Monroe after their divorce. It's possible that Monroe provides her the very life she always dreamed of.

I'm not doubting that she loves Ennis. But how much evidence do we have, really, that in her eyes he was ever such a superior catch to Monroe? The only thing I can think of is to show her less than happy with her later lot in life is her sour mood at Thanksgiving, but there are other explanations for that. Beyond that, we might be projecting our own preference for Ennis onto her.

After all, she married Ennis without knowing him very well ("more than I've spoke in a year"). Even early on, at the wedding, sliding, when the girls are sick, even in bed that night, there's no really strong evidence that Ennis is the absolute love of Alma's life. She doesn't seem particularly happy or passionate. For all we know, she may have gone -- given her era, probably DID go -- into marriage imagining that their life together would be a comfortable, middle-class, white-picket-fence existence, that is, featuring the comforts that life with Monroe eventually has.

It's true that we don't know a lot about what Alma's personal dreams (I mean her vision of her personal "sweet life" or "cow and calf operation") might be.  Maybe they never extended beyond a simple life in Riverton as a wife and mother.

I would guess that's true. She's not well educated or sophisticated, it's the early '60s, and she lives in a small town, all suggesting that a simple life in Riverton as a wife and mother was probably exactly her vision of the sweet life.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I do think sometimes and even often the quest for stability or security (I think both terms apply very well here) comes at a sacrifice with regard to personal happiness in terms of dreams and ideals/ passion.  The extreme pragmatism of the concepts of stability and security seem at odds with a sense of risk/drama/passion/freedom (etc.) that might be associated with a more bold dream or ideal.  And, again, I think women often make this sacrifice... and a woman like Alma was probably raised to do so.

This could be the "hard lesson in life" that Annie talks about.