Stay Home.

[sparkle_motion]

Perhaps it's that the closer you are to the border and you see how heavily impacted social services/schools and neighborhoods are by the influx of illegal immigration, the more obvious it becomes that this isn't an innocuous situation that our society can - as a whole - keep absorbing without economic repercussions.


I wondered earlier, if rtprod's excellent experiences with illegal immigrants had to do with the fact that he is, indeed, a white male and that many of my bad experiences came from the fact that I am not.  In the Hispanic community, the patriarchy is alive and well.

But I don't think they are ALL bad people, of course not.

I just don't tend to idealize people.  I don't care who they are or what they've been through.

As has been pointed out to me, illegal immigrants are humans too and as such not everyone is a saintly, hard-working soul who only wants to do good and not all of them are skanky conwomen.  They are people just like everyone else.

As someone who grew up in Grand Prairie for a couple of years (and since you're from this area, I'm sure you know about GP. I was only 1 of 3 white kids in my elementary class), I feel that I have seen first hand what immigration can do to a community. The good and bad. And I still say, they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.
No one here is glorifying illegal immigrants. No one here is "idealizing" them either.
But you seem to vilify them and it seems like it's merely based on your personal experience. And based on this experience, you're making broad generalizations about 12 million people.

[delalluvia]

As someone who grew up in Grand Prairie for a couple of years (and since you're from this area, I'm sure you know about GP. I was only 1 of 3 white kids in my elementary class), I feel that I have seen first hand what immigration can do to a community. The good and bad. And I still say, they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.
No one here is glorifying illegal immigrants. No one here is "idealizing" them either.
But you seem to vilify them and it seems like it's merely based on your personal experience. And based on this experience, you're making broad generalizations about 12 million people.

I'm sorry, sparkle but if you read some posts, what you read is a very idealized version of immigrants.  I simply pointed out the opposite side of this.  Yes, some are nice people, some are not. 

The idea that you continue to say I'm 'vilifying' them without acknowledging the fact that there are indeed bad apples who deserve to be vilified pretty much tells me that you are 'idealizing' them.

And as for

they have EVERY RIGHT to come here and try to make a life for themselves as we do.

please read Jenny's post.  She asked how this was going to be economically feasible and she pointed out that she has asked this many times and has received no answer other than a very 'pie in the sky' "Everyone deserves to come here to make a better life".

'Everyone'?  How many is that?  11 million, 100 million, 1 billion?

Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country.

[sparkle_motion]

I'm sorry, sparkle but if you read some posts, what you read is a very idealized version of immigrants.  I simply pointed out the opposite side of this.  Yes, some are nice people, some are not. 

The idea that you continue to say I'm 'vilifying' them without acknowledging the fact that there are indeed bad apples who deserve to be vilified pretty much tells me that you are 'idealizing' them.

And as for
please read Jenny's post.  She asked how this was going to be economically feasible and she pointed out that she has asked this many times and has received no answer other than a very 'pie in the sky' "Everyone deserves to come here to make a better life".

'Everyone'?  How many is that?  11 million, 100 million, 1 billion?

Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country.

I am not an economist. I can't give you a solution (you can't either, obviously) to this problem. But I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. And I know it is NOT right to keep people from having a healthier, happier, better life because they were not born on your soil! It's ridiculous! You are villifying them, period. You point out there are some bad apples and NO ONE is disagreeing you with. But what you fail to realize is there are bad apples EVERYWHERE. So, in your opinion because some are bad apples, then they should ALL be punished.

[opinionista]

Please state your thoughts on how to make this economically feasible to the taxpayers of the country

Well, I thought the discussion was whether illegal immigrant should be sent to jail. Anyway, finding a solution to stop them from coming in is not in our hands as citizens but in the hands of those who run their country and ours. They have to sit down and find a solution.

As for the ones who are already in the country, the best thing to do, in my opinion, is to allow them become legal resident or citizens so they can get a decent job and become tax payers themselves. Immigrants do not steal jobs. That idea is silly and racist. It's also untrue. A whole lot of them open their own business and actually provide employment for other citizens.  In cities like Miami, New York, or LA you'll see a lot of successful businesses that are immigrant-owned.

A lot are bilingual which is a big plus nowadays. I have met several immigrants from different countries that are excellent professionals and great to work with. I've had my share of immigrant co-workers during my career as a journalist and can't complaint.

It's true that some are illiterate, but have other skills that America society could use of its benefit. They know how to work in farms, how to handle cattle, some could be excellent herders, built houses, etc. Some women are good caretakers, cooks, seamstresses and so on. It's a matter of giving an opportunity. And of course, there will always be bad apples who would rather engage in criminal activities to earn easy money than actually work, but that also happens among Americans citizens.

[delalluvia]

I am not an economist. I can't give you a solution (you can't either, obviously) to this problem. But I KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. And I know it is NOT right to keep people from having a healthier, happier, better life because they were not born on your soil! It's ridiculous! You are villifying them, period. You point out there are some bad apples and NO ONE is disagreeing you with. But what you fail to realize is there are bad apples EVERYWHERE. So, in your opinion because some are bad apples, then they should ALL be punished.

sparkle,

No, you're not an economist, but you're a thinking person who is capable of voting.  I know you feel strongly about this issue, but so do I and so do many other people.  Yes, everyone deserves to have a nice happy healthy life. 

Now that the idealism has been firmly planted, let's talk about getting it to be a reality.

Not to further polarize the issue, but this is exactly what conservatives are always criticizing liberals about.  That we  have all these great optimistic idealistic dreams about a world in harmony but no real concrete ideas on how to make it work and who is supposed to pay for it.

Here are just a few typical conservative comments.  Mostly about liberals being closet socialiists who don't support or don't agree with the capitalist system and that "liberals live in a dream world of pink unicorns where money grows on trees" .  I've actually been accused of this kind of thinking:

"Each according to their abilities.  (Open borders crowd and each according to their needs.)  Why work???  All a part of Lenin's Communist Manifesto."

AND

"The real issue is this.  If we did let them all in, or grant them amnesty which is what the senate and white house are proposing, what makes them think these new LEGAL workers will work for the crap wages, when they will qualify for all the goodies the welfare state has to offer.  That is the government will do to them what they have done to the poor since LBJ's great society. Encourage them to stay at home and not work.  Encourage them to not get married, so they can qualify for AFDC.  The whole gambit.  Ensuring their poverty to continue.  The real program would be to do things to encourage families to stay together, and work to improve their situation."
 
AND


"I think everyone in America deserves a fair chance at a comfortable life ...but it is in no way guaranteed and by no means the job of the federal government to make sure it happens. This is the primary reason I consider myself a conservative (notice I didn't say republican, who have proven themselves less than conservative lately...)

Now is the time to show the conservatives that liberals can and do live in a realistic world and can make living conditions work for everyone.

I'm not much of a socialist/marxist/communist whatever myself.  I bellieve people who work for their goods in life should be able to keep them and not have the wealth re-distributed on a grand scale.

So, back to the problem at hand.

star has made a very good suggestion.  I back his idea.  Any others?

In Texas, many border areas and large metropolitan areas are ovewhelmed in their social services/medical aid/schooling.

Many illegal aliens are already paying taxes (if they have fake SS#s, then their employers are deducting from their payroll checks the correct amount of FICA taxes, if they're getting paid cash, then they usually buy local goods and pay a little in sales taxes.  I can't say how many actually file and pay federal income taxes).

And yet all this contribution is not helping matters and Texans already feel they pay too many and too much in taxes as it is.

THESE are the problems that need to be overcome and discussed and solutions found.

opinionista

Anyway, finding a solution to stop them from coming in is not in our hands as citizens but in the hands of those who run their country and ours. They have to sit down and find a solution.

I agree, but why should they?  Their needy people fleeing to another country certainly doesn't bother them.  They're just 11 million people less to worry about.  This is why it is OUR problem and why WE have to initiate the dialogue and solution with these countries.

[JennyC]

Obviously we all did not read every post clearly.  I doubt if we all read every posts.  

Again, no one suggested that illegal immigrants should be sent to jail or ship home. There may be some comments made in the heat of argument to let out the frustration of how some illegal immigrants are indeed bad apples (the argument also made the other way on there are bad apples in every group, even citizens), but again if you read through their posts, they did not say the solution is to sent the current illegal immigrants to jail to ship them home.

No offense, but we have enough ideology talks here, no real solutions.  I am interested to know what do you think should be a practical, fair, and fiscal responsible solution package.  Maybe it’s too heavy a topic

[opinionista]

I agree, but why should they?  Their needy people fleeing to another country certainly doesn't bother them.  They're just 11 million people less to worry about.  This is why it is OUR problem and why WE have to initiate the dialogue and solution with these countries.

Actually, losing people to emigration can be a big problem to a country.  I don't know about big countries like Mexico or China that are over populated. But the likes of Cuba, Ecuador, Argentina and so on actually suffer from the heavy emigration flow. They're losing skilled personnel which could pose a treath to their economic growth and developtment. Spain for instance, had a massive 'brain drain' during the 1930's and 1960's because of Franco's rule. It had an important impact on the country, and some of the consequences of it are still felt today. 

Also, emigration boosts underground economies on both sides of the border. Drug traffiking organizations hire immigrant as mules, drug sellers, etc. in exchange of helping them to cross the border. It fuels the creation of other mafia organizations that work for legal companies bringing in illegal immigrant to work for low wages, or sell false passports, visas and other documents that might help them cross the border for exhorbitants amounts of money.

It also gives a county a bad image, and has a negative effects on their diplomatic relationships with other countries.

The list is long. But you have a point though.  Saddly, some politicians couldn't care less and  won't do anything about it until the whole thing begins to pose threats to their interests.

Again, no one suggested that illegal immigrants should be sent to jail or ship home.

I didn't say anyone here said that. The whole illegal immigration issue that's going on at the moment is about a law that would make them all criminals, isn't it?

I am interested to know what do you think should be a practical, fair, and fiscal responsible solution package

That's a hard question to answer because things aren't that easy and there are a lot of issues to consider when finding a solution to solve one of the world's oldest problem: immigration.  It's complicated problem that require complicated solutions as well, because there are too many interests involved. Do you have the right solution? I think not.

There are several things to consider. For example: US corporations.They contribute a big deal to illegal immigration by lobbying members of the Congress and paying for their campaigns in exchange for international agreements between the US and some third world countries that are beneficial for them but not to those countries' citizens. Exxon Mobile and other companies alike, had control over Venezuela's oil resources for a while until Chavez came in and put a stop to that. They were getting richer and richer while venezuelans were getting poorer and poorer, so common folks like you and me, had no choice but to leave the country. Mexico have similar problems.

I'm not saying US is the only and one responsible for those countries poverty, because we have to take into account the corruption and acts of greed by some third world countries lawmakers and politicians, but it does contribute a lot to their poverty and to illegal immigration.

[JennyC]

opinionista,

The whole illegal immigration issue that's going on at the moment is about a law that would make them all criminals, isn't it?

I assume this refer to both the current illegal immigrants in the US as well as any future ones.  I think both the house and the senate got the message now.  Discussions like this and the protests through out the country in recent weeks delivered that message. 

For the existing illegal immigrants/undocumented workers, some program should be set up to provide them a road map to help them legalize their status here. Again, this is not amnesty, they should provide that they are contributing and law biding (not including entering the county illegally) members of the society.  And they should not get ahead of others who are in the process and come here legally.  I have friends in both boats, legally, illegally (some of them have over stayed their visa). When funding and staffing are limited, some one has to give and become the collateral damage.  I am afraid that this will inevitably impact those who decide to play by the rule. If I look the big picture, I hope that by everyone making some concession and enduring some suffering, the whole situation can be greatly improved.

Being realistic on the immigration issue, I think the enforcement aspect of immigration control is still necessary to if not stop, at least contain this vicious circle.   This include tightening border control and also putting pressure on employer to not hire illegal immigrants to take advantage of their low labor cost. If there is labor shortage in certain section of the US economy, like agriculture for example, or immigrants help to boom economy, then by all means provide them the legal way to get here and remove the road blocks in the process.  We all know that we can not live beyond our means, without any kind of enforcement; we are literally live beyond what the economy can support.

If you catch illegal immigrants at the border, then either send them home or see if the any of the current immigration path applies to them.  Today, there are asylum, refugee, special immigrants, employer based immigrants (assuming guess worker will be in this category), family sponsored immigration, etc.  Oh hi, there is the immigration lottery.  According to Department of State, 50,000 immigrants are admitted into US in the past five years.  But this does not apply to the following countries: CANADA, CHINA (mainland-born), COLOMBIA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, EL SALVADOR, HAITI, INDIA, JAMAICA, MEXICO, PAKISTAN, PHILIPPINES, POLAND, RUSSIA, SOUTH KOREA, UNITED KINGDOM (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and VIETNAM. Persons born in Hong Kong SAR, Macau SAR and Taiwan are eligible. 

I have two friends, one is Brazilian, one from a country that is part of the former Soviet Union (the name does not come to my mind now) got their green card through the lottery system.

Del,

I agree with star's analysis on declining immigrants from Indian and China.  Have to get to this one next time.

I have found a very interesting Immigration Studies on Center for Immigration Studies’s website.  It’s done by two economists.  It’s a short document, but if you find the paper boring, just read the first page. See attached file.

NPR also has a quite comprehensive webpage organizing various topics on Immigration Debate: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5310549&sourceCode=gaw

[opinionista]

Being realistic on the immigration issue, I think the enforcement aspect of immigration control is still necessary to if not stop, at least contain this vicious circle.

US has been tightening its border since forever, and it hasn't exactly worked. They always find a way to come in. To competely close a border is like trying to cover the sky with your hands. I'm sorry but that's not realistic. Do you know what Cubans are doing now to enter the states? Instead of taking a so called balsa and go to Miami, they go to Mona, a small Island a few miles off Puerto Rico's coast that falls inside the US border. Once there, they're officially on US territory and cannot be sent back to Cuba.

Moreover, thousands of immigrant from Dominican Republic enter Puerto Rico everyday through sea. Some are caught but the great majority are successful. They stay on the island a few years, manage to pick a Puerto Rican accent and since they look a lot like us, they travel to US mainland posing like Puerto Ricans.

Puerto Rico belongs to the US and Puerto Ricans are american citizens, so all flights from and to mainland are domestic. There can be no passport control at airports because that'll be like asking people from Boston to show their passports before entering New York. Stopping immigrants is next to impossible.

But I don't completely disagree with you. I wrote a post where I said that the best way to deal with the illegal immigrants that are already in the country is to provide them with the tools to become legal resident and law abiding citizens. But that won't eliminate illegal immigration as a national problem. Something else has to be done. A lot of these people migrate because they have no other choice, if they could stay where they belong they would.

[delalluvia]

Del,

I agree with star's analysis on declining immigrants from Indian and China.  Have to get to this one next time.

I have found a very interesting Immigration Studies on Center for Immigration Studies’s website.  It’s done by two economists.  It’s a short document, but if you find the paper boring, just read the first page. See attached file.

NPR also has a quite comprehensive webpage organizing various topics on Immigration Debate: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5310549&sourceCode=gaw

Thanks for the link and the attached file.  Interesting reading.  The Immigration Study is pretty much what I've heard from others, wages and quality of living will go up for the immigrants, but wages will be cut and quality of living go down for the natives.