Author Topic: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?  (Read 6178 times)

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,548
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2007, 12:22:11 pm »
I think they did kiss, but it was like it is portrayed in the movie, with Ennis' eyes closed.  And it was brief, a couple a times only.  No heavy making out...

Offline ifyoucantfixit

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,049
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2007, 12:28:33 pm »


      I see everyones point of view here, and see how they feel the way they do.  But as in all these discussions, I feel the ambiguity is
there for the reason we are having this discussion.  Everyone has the ability to make their own decision, by bringing their very own life experiences to the mix.  Personally I agree with Chrissi's assessment.  The most operative line being "as easily" etc.  The key fit  period.
As for the way they parted, of course they would act casual and part like buddies.  They were in public, and Ennis could not have allowed any other parting behavior.



     Beautiful mind

moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2007, 02:15:40 pm »
As for the way they parted, of course they would act casual and part like buddies.  They were in public, and Ennis could not have allowed any other parting behavior.
Even so, story Jack and Ennis were far more demonstrative than their celluloid counterparts in this same scene. I would have at least wanted a parting handshake with the man I loved (and I've always been particularly fond of pats on the back), but movie Ennis couldn't even muster up that meager gesture. Another suggestion among others that story Ennis may be slightly more self-aware, or becomes more aware more quickly, than the film's character.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,975
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2007, 09:39:25 am »
You guys have to realize what kissing means to closeted (actually closeted and in self-denial) gay men.  It's a very sensitive and touchy issue for them.  Besides the Topic was aimed at the book version, and we have authoritative proof that they never did.


Its sad, but I have to agree with Scott here.  Kissing is so intimate.  Its a way of showing and feeling how much one is loved.  Up on Brokeback, Ennis was in denial of his love for Jack.

I dont think the reunion kiss was practiced.  There was so much pent up love and longing after 4 years that when they saw each other again, nature took over, and as "easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers" Jack and Ennis kissed and hard for the first time disregarding any rules of society. 


Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,490
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2007, 04:51:35 pm »
Kissing is so intimate.  Its a way of showing and feeling how much one is loved. 

Hm. Kissing can be very intimate and everything you meant above. But not necessarily so, it can also just happen in the heat of the moment. Like you described the reunion kiss:

Quote
There was so much pent up love and longing after 4 years that when they saw each other again, nature took over, and as "easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers" Jack and Ennis kissed and hard for the first time disregarding any rules of society.

My argument here is that on Brokeback there already was a good deal of pent up sexual tension, and of longing in those two. They were 19 year old teenagers after all.

And both of them were (or became) pretty uninhibited during their summer:

After the first night:
"...both[!] knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned."

(I love the great "sheep be damned" phrase) This sentence shows a different Ennis than movieEnnis.

And on they go:
"They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but not saying a goddamn word except once..."

Annies says twice in this one sentence, that they didn't talk about the sex, but what she does not say is, that they didn't kiss.

"There were only the two of them on the mountain..."
"They believed themselves invisible..."


No rules, no society up there (at least they think so - f*** Aguirre). But plenty of passion and uninhibited sex. I can imagine passionate kisses belonging to the scenario, too.

They "let it happen". How exactly did it "happen"? I don't mean the sexual act itself, but how to begin it? Ennis coming down from the sheep and Jack wordlessly opening his pants? Ennis jumping directly on Jack after gulping down the last beans on his plate? I think not. They had a real good time together, they were not only f***-buddies, but friends. They traded stories, talked about the sheep, bitching about Aguirre, and so on.
I picture them sitting at the campfire, munching their food, smoking a cigarette afterwards and talking and laughing together. How in hell did they come from that to having sex? There must have been some kind of "foreplay", however brief, maybe sometimes consisting in only a look of mutual understanding, but other times some kind of physical contact must have happened before the act itself.
I know it doesn't mean that kissing must have ben a part of that physical contact. But it makes me wonder.

Another thing that makes me wonder; not necessarily tied to the question of kissing:

"..., and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably."

Before Jack took Ennis's hand and brought it to his penis, they already had come considerably closer. What do you think: only closer in regard to the space between them (huddling against each other) - or else?

Offline miniangel

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2007, 11:43:41 pm »
As one of the chief problem-makers over on DCF about this question, I should avoid it like the plague but.....

I am convinced that AP writes a layer of meaning that holds together well as a No Kiss argument. It can be ignored and the story still hangs together but I do believe it's there.

We are led to suppose that "nothing seemed wrong", to fill in the gaps with our imagination. But we are told that Ennis didn't want to have anything to do with Jack's cock and took him from behind and that "they knew how it would go....as it did go"

Then we are told that they had sex in different places and at different times but not that it changed in its substance. Then we find out that Ennis would not embrace Jack face to face.

I think the lock simile in the reunion kiss shows that they are unlocking something that was previously locked. There's a whole bunch of other arguments which seem to hang together well but I won't ramble on. The whole sorry mess on DCF started here

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12935.msg465488#msg465488

and eventually got banned completely from the forum. It's a touchy subject.

I think it shows how deeply affected Ennis was, and how debilitating the effects of internalised homophobia were on him. FWIW I'm trying to put the whole argument together on a webpage. I think it's a fundamental part of the story.

moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2007, 02:57:56 am »
I am impressed by the interesting and intelligent comments, both pro and con, that have been offered here. I do think it is important to argue one's points with the original text as support, and I think to a large degree that has been followed.

The source of so much of the frustration is, I think, rooted in the quite deliberate ambiguity of Proulx's prose. There is much that we simply cannot know with certainty, and I suspect this may be an invitation to identify ourselves with Ennis, who must bear a lifetime of unknowns by the end of the tale (though the most essential question--Who have I loved?--has been answered). Proulx really meant it when she said it fell to the reader to finish the story in their own lives, and that is all anyone who has been haunted by this particular story can do.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,161
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2007, 10:45:22 am »
When I heard this theory, that they never kissed up on Brokbecak, for the first time. I was like:  :o :o :o - no effin way!
That thought had never occurred to me (and by then, I had been a Brokie for a long while) and I realised that my personal view of Brokeback Mountain is much more influenced by the movie than by the story.
But after re-reading the significant parts of the story and thinking about it for a while I admit that it is possible.

Yet my personal take on it is still that they indeed did kiss up there.

This part is for me kind of key to the question:

"...then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, ..."

Easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers sounds to me like it is something they did hundred times before; like it's something well-known, familiar and natural - they fit like a a glove. Even after four years of seperation there wasn't any awkwardness in them, they just continued where they had stopped (before Jake broke the news of bringing them down).
I think it wouldn't be that way (easily as...) if it were the first time.

Additionally I have a hard time picturing two people having sex for months and falling in love (whether they knew it by then or not), but never sharing a kiss. Scott's argument that it would have been a silent admission for Ennis that he was queer sounds to me more like movie-Ennis and not like story-Ennis.

And after four years of seperation and not knowing if they'd ever see each other again, after four years of built-up passion it's no wonder the kiss wasn't soft and smooth.

What a logical and yet impassioned argument! Alright you convinced me. Annie would not have let them come together on Brokeback that first summer without kissing. That would have been a GBOAUS!!
Too much to do. . .I don't have time to get old!

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2007, 04:06:11 am »
Well, as the person who set off that chaotic firestorm on DC with comments which were, uh, ill -advised and ill-timed  {I walked into a minefield....w/o knowing it was a minefield---Dave himself got into the act. } I should avoid this like the plague. Hell, I barely posted in that thread, it just didn't seem that important a question. My comments were basically about free speech and an unpopular subject, and  were inspired by what went on re that Kiss/NoKiss thread. It hit the nerve of all time, but no matter.

I'm a kisser.

It's a gut feeling, that's all. I find it impossible to believe that they never smooched up there.


I haven't been online much at all since mid-June, soooooo. HIIIII to all my BM buds!!!! Both the wife and I were pretty sick, she has recovered fairly well and I'm maybe halfway there. We had this environmentally poisoned home. It was a real real mess.

I DO have to say this as a general remark:
I think BM is crying out for "heavy" discussions like this one. They would give new life to our forum and re-awaken interest in the minutae of the short story itself. This place has an attitude which cannot be duplicated. I started on DC and have considered myself a staunch BM person from the day I joined, it's a wonderful, happy and tolerant place....

Thank you, BM!!!! As usual, this forum is 'the port in the storm'. What would we all do w/o Phillip's tolerance and broad-minded care?
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,490
Re: Topic of the Week 2/07: Did Ennis and Jack kiss at all up on Brokeback?
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2007, 05:20:36 am »
Since the topic of DCF has come up twice, I'd like to respond to it:

I didn't know that this subject is such a can of worms over there. I had only seen this topic discussed in comments on LifeJournal a few months ago. Following Miniangle's link I went over and had a look.

I don't think anybody should stay away from this topic here on BetterMost. Everybody is welcome to add his opinion, to agree or disagree with others, to quote Proulx's story to make a point or to just simply say "yes" or "no" to the topic's question.


Now back on topic:

I still would like to get other people's opinions about the questions I asked in my above post. Any takes?