Author Topic: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?  (Read 12232 times)

moremojo

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Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« on: September 06, 2007, 12:24:34 pm »
To my BetterMost friends:

This is not my situation at the moment, but as many here know, last month I fully intended to withdraw from BetterMost for a complicated and personal set of reasons. I learned to my dismay that I was unable to delete my account on my own, and had to appeal to an administrator to do it for me--the administrators' position being consistently one of sitting on one's feelings in the hope that it would pass in a few weeks.

This was quite frustrating to me at the time, and though my sense of urgency and despair has passed, I still, upon reflection, feel it should be a basic right and dignity of mine to join and at least leave any online forum as it suits me to do so. There can be any number of reasons for a person to undertake such a choice, and it should be the person's prerogative to act as their own free agent in pursuing such a choice, without being compelled to argue or explain themselves to an owner/moderator. This strikes me as the same kind of potentially manipulative and/or misleading stances and actions that played a part in my consideration in withdrawing from online communications altogether.

So I submit this poll to gauge other members's feeling on this question, and perhaps present it as evidence, one way or the other, to administrators as either support or rebuke of their own position.

Respectfully,
Scott

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2007, 12:48:24 pm »
       i was of two minds on this issue Scott.  i Do believe it is your right to do that if you choose.
Now having said that.  It did bear out to be the best that you did not do it.  You have stayed  and are still, happily, i hope with us...So there is wisdom on both sides....
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 09:39:11 pm by ifyoucantfixit »



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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2007, 01:28:26 pm »
I didn't know we couldn't.  ??? I figured you could "open" and "close" accounts sorta like at a bank. I guess not.  :-\
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Offline louisev

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2007, 02:00:59 pm »
This option is set by the owner of the forum, and having heard the reasons, I think they are sound ones.  Nothing prevents users from leaving, or from deleting all of their messages, either.  But control over when accounts get  deleted is reserved here for the owner of the forum - in this case, Phillip.  One of the truly compelling arguments for not having users delete their own accounts is to prevent users from deleting an account and creating a stealth account to return in order to cause mischief on the forum.  Another, more common use for it, is in the case where a member decides quite impulsively to leave the forum and wants to leave no trace of their passing, and in most cases (according to Phillip) they change their minds after that impulse passes, and by the time the forum administrator asks "But are you SURE" which is why there is the cooling off period.

But if the purpose in deleting an account is to LEAVE the forum - nothing prevents anyone from ceasing to post, from deleting their writings, or leaving.  All that the administrator has retained is the right to decide when (and if) to delete the user's account.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


moremojo

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2007, 02:03:48 pm »
But if the purpose in deleting an account is to LEAVE the forum - nothing prevents anyone from ceasing to post, from deleting their writings, or leaving.  All that the administrator has retained is the right to decide when (and if) to delete the user's account.
Then this stipulation should be stated very clearly before or when a prospective member joins. I'm also not sure if members who joined before a change in policy should necessarily be subjected to every nuance of that policy change.

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2007, 02:24:47 pm »
Like Janice I can see both sides of this issue.  Bettermost is an unusual place within the world of on line forums on the the Internet.  Folks here seem to be more concerned about what happens to their cyber friends and aquaintences.  There seems to be a need to KNOW what is happening with people to want to control the ability to obtain that knowledge as if they were some how entitled to it.  Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this caring and need to know is necessarily a bad thing just not the usual state of affairs on the Internet.

But I still feel strongly that a member should have the option available of either leaving with the ability to return or deleting their account completely thereby making their break complete.  The decision to delete an account is not the same as the decision to delete posts.  One wipes out your contribution to the forum the other only ends participation in a very final way.

Since we are all adults here a member should not have to explain or justify their decision to depart and or delete their account to anyone including the forum owner or any moderator or administrator.  IMO
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 02:30:13 pm by dot-matrix »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2007, 02:41:55 pm »
Like Janice -- and Dottie! whose post just appeared -- I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I understand the idea of wanting autonomy.

On the other, I know that it's possible to make an impulsive decision to leave and then change one's mind later. I've felt that way myself a few times at imdb (never at BetterMost, I hasten to add). At imdb you CAN delete your own account, and the only thing that has stopped me is that there, unlike here, all your posts get erased automatically when you do it.

Why did I want to delete my account at imdb? 1) I would get upset about something and want to make a big dramatic statement to express it, or 2) I would want to cut down my time online and found it too hard to muster the discipline to stay away on my own without taking drastic action. Both feelings come up from time to time, and then they pass. I've found that dramatic or emotional actions, taken impulsively, generally aren't the best decisions -- at least not for me.

I can think of at least one or two people here who have requested to have their accounts deleted, then changed their minds and stayed on. Sometimes that initial request is the result of some disagreement or misunderstanding that can be worked out to a happy (or at least satisfactory) ending. And everyone knows people who are no longer active here for whatever reasons but have kept their accounts open, to no ill effects as far as I know. It's not like the Hotel California, where you can never leave.

As Louise said, it's Phillip's decision and he has good reasons for it. At the very least, I always, always, always would favor a cooling-off period -- whether enforced by an administrator or electronically.

And no offense, Scott, but if any further argument is needed against having members abruptly delete their accounts, it's the fact that you're still here!! We're all very glad of that.  :)



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2007, 02:43:37 pm »
One of the truly compelling arguments for not having users delete their own accounts is to prevent users from deleting an account and creating a stealth account to return in order to cause mischief on the forum.

While I admit to very little understanding of how these things work, I'm not so sure this is that compelling an argument. This sounds to me like another way of saying a disgruntled former member might come back as a troll--and doesn't Phillip already have the ability to deal with those situations?

Or is a "stealth account" something else, more like a virus?
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Offline louisev

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2007, 03:01:23 pm »
What I meant by "stealth" account is to return pretending to be someone new.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2007, 04:11:27 pm »
The policies that are in place here are remarkably few in number.  The only hard and fast rule here (beyond the usual stuff about illegal activities and such) is no personal attacks.  Beyond that, we have very liberal policies in place about what is allowed here and what isn't.  Just having the right to delete one's own messages is extremely rare on many forums, but we give people that option here.

The governing of this community specifically has been mostly through experience.  In the majority of cases, a one time incident doesn't mean we need a new rule to cover it.  I am quite conservative about implementing new rules or regulations here.  But when something happens repeatedly and it becomes a problem, just like steering a ship, a course correction may become needed.

BetterMost residents retain the right to have their accounts deleted, but I have added a cooling-off policy by requiring an administrator process the request.  We have had repeated instances of people using that option as a dramatic tool to engage in needless theatrics on their way out the door (last summer in particular), followed rapidly by applications for new accounts from these same people to lurk and watch for any reaction they may have gotten.  I've also had several occasions where people have asked for account deletions only to change their mind a week later, reapply for a new account, and then try and carry on threads under a new handle, having to remind people they have a different handle now.  All of this would have been unnecessary had they just given a week or two to consider whether their decision was "heat of the moment," and in the vast majority of cases, what was causing the problem for them then had been resolved, blown over, or just wasn't as important any longer.  You aren't required to use your account either, and in some cases, a vacation from the online world isn't a bad idea.

Once a user's account is cancelled, their identifying information (IP address and such) goes with it, so it makes it much more difficult to track stealth accounts unless I start keeping records on deleted accounts, and that really doesn't interest me.

When a resident asks to delete their account, it is common for one of us to ask why, but only because we do care about our community here and want to know if we can help in some way.  But a reason or explanation isn't a requirement.  We just ask the person to confirm their request after a 14 day waiting period.

This policy has worked extremely well for us, and I think the fact we reach out to our community here when something does go wrong makes us unique and special.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2007, 09:06:40 pm »
I'm a big advocate for the cooling-off/ waiting period policy as it exists.  I think it's very reasonable and well-thought out.
 :)

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2007, 10:27:34 pm »
I like the "cooling off" period too. Although it sure did feel good when I deleted my "David-Indiana" account over at IMDb.

But that was different.

I've seen several people wish to delete their accounts, and then return. And I'm sure they were happy all their posts and hard work were not deleted into Internet Oblivion. And as others have already pointed out, the member always has the option of deleting all their posts. It might take a while to accomplish, but they can do it if they want to.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2007, 11:24:57 pm »
I've seen several people wish to delete their accounts, and then return. And I'm sure they were happy all their posts and hard work were not deleted into Internet Oblivion.

It's worth noting that, unlike IMDb, when you delete your account here your posts do not disappear. You can tell if someone has deleted their account here if you see a post or thread by someone whose username is not underlined -- and therefore you can't call up their profile or PM them, but their post remains intact.

Though of course you can always delete your posts yourself -- with or without also deleting your account.

(At IMDb, there is no way to delete your account without also deleting all your posts.)


Offline David In Indy

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2007, 11:30:50 pm »
It's worth noting that, unlike IMDb, when you delete your account here your posts do not disappear. You can tell if someone has deleted their account here if you see a post or thread by someone whose username is not underlined -- and therefore you can't call up their profile or PM them, but their post remains intact.

Though of course you can always delete your posts yourself -- with or without also deleting your account.

(At IMDb, there is no way to delete your account without also deleting all your posts.)



That's very true Katherine! Thanks for pointing that out. Yeah, I've seen this. The user name will change to "guest" but the posts remain intact. I forgot about that.  :)
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2007, 11:33:29 pm »
Or rather their status changes to "guest" but I think even their name remains too, doesn't it?
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2007, 11:58:47 pm »
What I've noticed is that ever since the 14 day policy has been implemented, zero people have come back 14 days later to say that yes indeed, after 14 days they still want to go through with the account deletion procedure.  And I think that zero people have left rather than re-request it after 14 days.

Also, be aware that once a person deletes their account here, they are unable to then access their previous posts.  So if they did decide to delete or edit their posts, they couldn't.  They have taken that option away from themselves.

Phillip has about 150 years of experience administrating websites, and I have learned quite a bit from his anecdotal experiences that lead him to shape his decisions here.   He's usually right.

Scott, I admire you for posting this poll to discuss a situation you don't agree with.  And thanks for PMing Phillip and me to let us know this poll is here.  I wonder if you would be willing to adjust the poll so people would be able to change their vote, if rethinking causes a shift in their perspective?  As poll-creator, you can do that by editing the poll.

(I actually voted opposite of how I meant to.)   ::)

Clarissa

« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 12:11:56 am by Ellemeno »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2007, 01:42:28 am »
Or rather their status changes to "guest" but I think even their name remains too, doesn't it?

Yes. Not to single anybody out, but for the sake of illustration some names you may still see appear from time to time, because they started/posted on a lot of good threads, are TJ, ruthlesslyunsentimental, and rtprod. All of them have deleted their accounts, but their names still appear on the threads, sans underlines.

And, as Elle pointed out, once they deleted their accounts they couldn't come back and delete their individual posts (not that they'd necessarily want to, since as I say all three wrote good posts).



injest

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2007, 08:54:07 am »
This is a tricky one!  I'm definitely in favour of a "Cooling off" period. 

The internet brings out the best in us ... but it also brings out the worst in us.  Paranoia runs wild when you can't "see" the other person's expressions .... Were they joking?  Are they having a dig at me?  Do they hate me?

Believe me I know ... been there, done that!!

I've only had one person tell me they found me irritating, but it nearly sent me heading for the hills, so I do know what it feels like to want to run away!

I voted "No", not because I don't think that anyone has the right to leave, but because I think that it gives a person the opportunity to talk calmly to someone who's not caught up in the middle of things, and a chance to cool down and get things back into perspective!

I'm so happy you stayed Scott!  Who else could I share my love of Tibetans with?  :-*

Susie  :)




a long time ago...back in the distant past...we had an option called 'ignore'. If someone just got on your nerves you could hit that button and they would disappear.

That power was taken away by the Powers That Be.

now we have a situation where people feel it is not enough to ignore someone or avoid them. They MUST share their disgust and displeasure with the object of their derision. I have had four people tell me just exactly what they thought of me. Some things you can't take back. I often feel like I am not wanted here. I have had people write me and tell me they read my posts but won't speak to me. It hurts. Used to be I came online to get away. To have fun. It is rarely fun anymore. I come back now because I have a handfull of friends to keep up with.

If you don't like someone. If someone gets on your nerves...can't you just let them be? I had an arguement over a misunderstanding with another member. I do not talk to her. I don't go to threads she starts. SHE on the other hand DOES come on the ones I start. She responds to my posts. WHY? If you really loath another person why keep talking to them.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2007, 09:59:55 am »
I have had four people tell me just exactly what they thought of me. Some things you can't take back. I often feel like I am not wanted here. I have had people write me and tell me they read my posts but won't speak to me. It hurts. Used to be I came online to get away. To have fun. It is rarely fun anymore.

Wow, Jess. That is really surprising and disturbing, and I'm sorry to hear it. I can where you'd be very upset by it.

I'll have to say that, for myself, I haven't had those kinds of problems at BetterMost. I like everybody here -- not absolutely equally, of course, that wouldn't be human nature, and here and there people get on my nerves from time to time, but I can honestly say there's nobody here I really dislike (at least at the moment!  ;D). So for me, BetterMost provides the sort of online escape you mentioned, Jess, which is what I seek, too.

IMDb, on the other hand -- not so soothing. There are always plenty of people there to dislike in the form of trolls. And even among the Brokies there, I feel more interpersonal turmoil and stress. So I do know what you mean, Jess. I can't experience that sort of blissful escape at IMDb that I do here. Gets tiresome.


 

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2007, 10:16:25 am »
The internet brings out the best in us ... but it also brings out the worst in us.  Paranoia runs wild when you can't "see" the other person's expressions .... Were they joking?  Are they having a dig at me?  Do they hate me?

Believe me I know ... been there, done that!!

I've only had one person tell me they found me irritating, but it nearly sent me heading for the hills, so I do know what it feels like to want to run away!

Never ever take anything you read on a website too personally.  People shoot from the hip with comments they wouldn't think of ever saying to a person standing in front of them.  It's real easy to make careless side comments about people they often only mean at the spur of the moment, and if you give them undue weight, the remark that took them ten seconds to write and only half-mean will bug you for ten days.  Trust me, most people who write negative attacks on others spent seconds contemplating them, and that is exactly how long you should consider paying attention to them.

Also, flame wars and personal attacks are a game for some people, and you can be sure those who engage in them have long since run out of things of substance to say, so all they are left with is namecalling.  That's a person of low character and intelligence anyway, so why would you even waste a moment of your life caring about what they have to say?

And as always, we keep those of low morality, character, and intelligence away from our community.  :)  That's why we never allow personal attacks here.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2007, 10:38:03 am »
a long time ago...back in the distant past...we had an option called 'ignore'. If someone just got on your nerves you could hit that button and they would disappear.

That power was taken away by the Powers That Be.

Actually, since the "ignore module" was a software add-on, it was kept running by a third party who didn't update their software to work with upgraded versions of the forum software.  So it wasn't the "powers that be" that took the feature away - it was the fact the author of the add-on didn't update the software to work with new versions of this forum software.

Quote
now we have a situation where people feel it is not enough to ignore someone or avoid them. They MUST share their disgust and displeasure with the object of their derision. I have had four people tell me just exactly what they thought of me. Some things you can't take back. I often feel like I am not wanted here. I have had people write me and tell me they read my posts but won't speak to me. It hurts. Used to be I came online to get away. To have fun. It is rarely fun anymore. I come back now because I have a handfull of friends to keep up with.

If anyone personally attacks you on here in a public message, report it at once.  I don't get into much regulation of PM's on here because they are private messages and there is no way to regulate them, but you can ignore the sender.  If someone is sending you repeated personal attacks in PMs, I would like to know about that.  Drop me a PM about it.  If someone is repeatedly telling you they won't speak to you, but are telling you this in a PM, I'd reply letting them know it's awfully ironic they are speaking to you to tell you they won't speak to you.

Quote
If you don't like someone. If someone gets on your nerves...can't you just let them be? I had an argument over a misunderstanding with another member. I do not talk to her. I don't go to threads she starts. SHE on the other hand DOES come on the ones I start. She responds to my posts. WHY? If you really loath another person why keep talking to them.

I don't know any of the particulars here, but my general guess is that the person obviously doesn't dislike you as much as you think they do.  As I said in an earlier message, online misunderstandings are common, and people can read things into messages.  That's why I always urge people to be careful about the messages they write, and recipients not to take things written online too seriously.   And don't allow a message on a website to get on your nerves anyway.  You are empowered to scroll right on past their message, as is anyone who would write to you and tell you they are irritated by something you wrote in the first place.
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2007, 11:51:17 am »

now we have a situation where people feel it is not enough to ignore someone or avoid them. They MUST share their disgust and displeasure with the object of their derision. I have had four people tell me just exactly what they thought of me. Some things you can't take back. I often feel like I am not wanted here. I have had people write me and tell me they read my posts but won't speak to me. It hurts. Used to be I came online to get away. To have fun. It is rarely fun anymore. I come back now because I have a handfull of friends to keep up with.


A similar thing has happened to me, there are two people here who have chosen to make snide remarks about my posts and send me nasty grams via PM....and yet they still read my posts.  I have chose to ignore them so far, chosing the high ground and not responding at all but I am not as generous or as altruistic as Philip, I personally believe that these people continue to read our posts to look for more things to use against us.  That certainly seems to be the case to me.  I not saying anyone here is a bad person, they are only doing what they do and drama takes many forms.  I am saying I don't like it and it has cause me to consider leaving this place several times.

Since when did their opinions become any more valid than mine or yours?  Since when does anyone of us have the right to sit in judgment of each other?  Since when do they have the right to push their negative opinion of someone I love on me when they don't know her any better than they know me?

And as always, we keep those of low morality, character, and intelligence away from our community.  :)  That's why we never allow personal attacks here.


And yet when some drama queen wants to play the games you described of making long winded farewell speeches or casting aspersions, deleting their account and coming back with a new one to watch the chaos they have created you do nothing except prevent them for deleting their account? I'm confused.   Their behavior certainly seems of low morality, questionable character, and questionable intelligence to me.   Not allowing personal attacks doesn't keep them away, it only drives the more creative underground.  They are here hiding in plain sight behind a sweet face, and in some instances using PM's and snide comments to make their points.   I don't believe it is as simple as you paint it, but I wish you well and respect what you have created here.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2007, 12:35:53 pm »
I'll have to say that, for myself, I haven't had those kinds of problems at BetterMost.

Oops! I realized later I did once. More than a year ago, I got a PM from somebody containing some very harsh criticism -- about a particular post I'd written as well as all of my posts in general. The PM called me "arrogant," and what made it particularly hurtful was that this person said that "others" also felt the same way about me. Who were these "others"?? I got this sense of a bunch of people talking behind my back about what a jerk I am. Maybe everybody secretly thought so! It was a terrible feeling.

So I wrote a post about it in the thread this PMer was talking about. I didn't name the PMer, of course, but I said that someone had told me I'd been arrogant and obnoxious, and I apologized to anyone else who had taken my posts the same way.

Well, the response was very reassuring. I got a bunch of posts and a lot of PMs from people saying they didn't agree with those criticisms. And in the end, I felt a lot better. So one person -- oh, and maybe a few "others," whose identities I never determined -- didn't like my posts. Plenty of other people said they did.

And the critical PMer and I wound up coming to some sort of peace and getting along OK after that.

The moral, I guess, is that if one person or a few people don't like you, a lot of other people probably do. And even that one person may have lashed out impulsively and will eventually think otherwise.






Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2007, 03:25:18 pm »
A similar thing has happened to me, there are two people here who have chosen to make snide remarks about my posts and send me nasty grams via PM....and yet they still read my posts.  I have chose to ignore them so far, chosing the high ground and not responding at all but I am not as generous or as altruistic as Philip, I personally believe that these people continue to read our posts to look for more things to use against us.

Put those people on your PM ignore list if they are irritating you.  And I'm not exactly sure why you are giving these people power by saying they are looking for something to use against you.  With whom?  We don't keep a list of 'offenses' here that adds up to a person getting deleted.  Usually the worst that happens is that a post gets modified, but that usually doesn't put anyone's access in peril here, and nobody is in that situation right now.

Quote
Since when did their opinions become any more valid than mine or yours?  Since when does anyone of us have the right to sit in judgment of each other?  Since when do they have the right to push their negative opinion of someone I love on me when they don't know her any better than they know me?

And yet when some drama queen wants to play the games you described of making long winded farewell speeches or casting aspersions, deleting their account and coming back with a new one to watch the chaos they have created you do nothing except prevent them for deleting their account? I'm confused.   Their behavior certainly seems of low morality, questionable character, and questionable intelligence to me.   Not allowing personal attacks doesn't keep them away, it only drives the more creative underground.  They are here hiding in plain sight behind a sweet face, and in some instances using PM's and snide comments to make their points.   I don't believe it is as simple as you paint it, but I wish you well and respect what you have created here.

Jess raised a secondary issue that isn't really pertinent to the earlier discussion about the account delete feature, so it's important to keep the two issues distinct.

Everyone has an opinion on something.  How much weight you give it personally isn't something I can control.  If you disagree with the opinion, you don't have to spend any more time dwelling on it.  And nobody that I know is pushing personal attacks in public forums, which is the moderated portion of our site.  PM's are more self-regulatory as you have the ability to block recipients you do not wish to hear from, excepting administrative folks of course.

On the issue of a delay in account deletion, since implemented, it has allowed me to root out duplicate accounts by people setting up a second account here from which to watch any fireworks should they cause an incident (but the last one is now more than a year old).  But more importantly, since the majority of the cases of people leaving are from rash decision-making, not from any effort to disrupt the forum, the policy of a two week wait has effectively kept virtually every one of those people as members of our community.
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Offline louisev

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2007, 03:29:22 pm »
I think all of the complaints raised here can easily be handled with the ignorelist feature on private messages.  If anyone does not know how to implement this feature it is quite easy to do, or ask if you are having trouble!

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2007, 03:42:44 pm »
Oops! I realized later I did once. More than a year ago, I got a PM from somebody containing some very harsh criticism -- about a particular post I'd written as well as all of my posts in general. The PM called me "arrogant," and what made it particularly hurtful was that this person said that "others" also felt the same way about me. Who were these "others"?? I got this sense of a bunch of people talking behind my back about what a jerk I am. Maybe everybody secretly thought so! It was a terrible feeling.

I have learned that the overwhelming majority of times you hear someone say that "others" felt the same way, that's turned out to be nonsense.  People do this to try and bolster their argument.  If they have a valid argument to begin with, there is no reason to suggest that others felt the same way.

Quote
The moral, I guess, is that if one person or a few people don't like you, a lot of other people probably do. And even that one person may have lashed out impulsively and will eventually think otherwise.

As I said before, it's very easy to write negative messages to people, which is why I don't allow them to get to me.  And, as you discovered, once there was a cooling off and some discussion, things worked out.
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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2007, 05:16:20 pm »
And yet when some drama queen wants to play the games you described of making long winded farewell speeches...
Did I hear someone calling my name?  ::) ;D

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2007, 05:35:24 pm »
Did I hear someone calling my name?  ::) ;D

I think we're all referring to the trio of trauma we had last year, not you.
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injest

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2007, 06:14:39 pm »
well I came on to delete my post. I was WAY rash to post it and have regreted it all day. Couldn't get back to the computer though.

Scott, no...no one is talking about you in these last few pages...and I am sorry if you feel I was. I love to see you online and enjoy talking to you. I was responding to Susiebell's post where she said someone pmed her to say they found her irritating and it made her want to leave. I think that is kinda pertinent to the discussion of having a cooling off period for deletion.

but

I was wrong to post it...please forgive me.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 06:22:16 pm by injest »

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2007, 06:43:09 pm »
Hi friends, I know no one was referring to me, but I was getting a little laugh at MYSELF, thinking of myself as a drama queen (yes, I can be that sometimes) who was bound and determined to make a grand exit with an eloquent, poetic speech of farewell...well, I suppose I made the speech all right, but I still (gladly) find myself here!

And that thought just makes me giggle...

 :)

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2007, 06:45:37 pm »
Hi friends, I know no one was referring to me, but I was getting a little laugh at MYSELF, thinking of myself as a drama queen (yes, I can be that sometimes) who was bound and determined to make a grand exit with an eloquent, poetic speech of farewell...well, I suppose I made the speech all right, but I still (gladly) find myself here!

And that thought just makes me giggle...

 :)

Scott, I can be quite a drama queen too! Maybe we can be drama queens together!

They can call us "The Drama Sisters"!  ;)  :D
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2007, 06:46:48 pm »
Did I hear someone calling my name?  ::) ;D

Scott!  Buddy!   :o  you KNOW  I wasn't talking about you.   :-* 

well I came on to delete my post. I was WAY rash to post it and have regreted it all day. Couldn't get back to the computer though.

Scott, no...no one is talking about you in these last few pages...and I am sorry if you feel I was. I love to see you online and enjoy talking to you. I was responding to Susiebell's post where she said someone pmed her to say they found her irritating and it made her want to leave. I think that is kinda pertinent to the discussion of having a cooling off period for deletion.

but

I was wrong to post it...please forgive me.

You should not feel bad about telling the truth Jess.  When problems arise it is always best to expose them to the light of day instead of sweeping them under the rug where they become malignant dust bunnies  ;) .  I don't regret sharing my experiences if for nothing more than it let people know that they are not the only ones who may have had these experiences and felt badly because of them.  Also it helps me let it go and move on.  I like the block for PM's but it won't help you since you're a moderator and can't block anyone or someone who has a problem with a moderator.  But as I said we take the high road, delete the nasty grams and ignore them.
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moremojo

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2007, 06:48:10 pm »
Scott, I can be quite a drama queen too! Maybe we can be drama queens together!

They can call us "The Drama Sisters"!  ;)  :D
You got it, David!

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2007, 06:49:46 pm »
You got it, David!

We are family...
I got all my sisters with me...


*David gets up and dances on the coffee table*

Whew!!! I LOVE that song!  :D
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2007, 09:10:46 pm »
 :D Me Too !


;) Go David, Go David, Go David!  ;)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2007, 09:20:45 pm »
*David gets up and dances on the coffee table*


Now THAT I'd like to see!!!    

Especially if he takes his shirt off. ...  ;D
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2007, 09:29:59 pm »
That David --- he starts a RIOT wherever he goes!!!



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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2007, 09:45:18 pm »




.... shhhhhh ... we'd better get back onto the subject or I'll get into trouble again.




You and me both Suzie   ;)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2007, 10:40:22 pm »

Actually, I quite like the direction you all are going!  Even if it is a bit off topic.  It's nice to see a little bit of happiness and fun enter into things here.  :-*


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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2007, 03:48:55 am »
Louise:

No that I've ever had the occasion to need to do this but can you explain the irnore PM feature to us so we know how to do it if we have to?
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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2007, 05:25:12 am »
Louise:

No that I've ever had the occasion to need to do this but can you explain the irnore PM feature to us so we know how to do it if we have to?


you go to your profile and look at the left of the screen. Under 'Modify Your Profile' choose "Private Message Options" There you will find a box where you can put a member's screen name....put one members name per line then scroll down and choose accept.

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2007, 08:55:02 am »
you go to your profile and look at the left of the screen. Under 'Modify Your Profile' choose "Private Message Options" There you will find a box where you can put a member's screen name....put one members name per line then scroll down and choose accept.

For instance, I have chosen to ignore myself.  :)
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2007, 12:04:02 pm »
you go to your profile and look at the left of the screen. Under 'Modify Your Profile' choose "Private Message Options" There you will find a box where you can put a member's screen name....put one members name per line then scroll down and choose accept.

And of course you cannot place Moderators or System Administrators on ignore  ::)  ;) 
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2007, 12:21:09 pm »
And of course you cannot place Moderators or System Administrators on ignore  ::)  ;) 

Actually, that's not true. You can place Moderators on ignore.

L
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2007, 12:28:36 pm »
Actually, that's not true. You can place Moderators on ignore.

L

REALLY  :o  Wow that surprises me, most forums you can't since it would kind of defeat the moderators ablilty to moderate wouldn't it? 
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2007, 12:44:07 pm »
REALLY  :o  Wow that surprises me, most forums you can't since it would kind of defeat the moderators ablilty to moderate wouldn't it? 

Well, that's why I try to moderate with a light touch! My goal is to make this a place where folks get along and we don't need to use the ignore button. I used it liberally over on IMDb. I had a few folks on ignore on another forum that shall not be named. I have no one on ignore here. And I like to think that no one is ignoring me. Since I am not getting any blocked PM messages, if I am on someone's ignore list, I am not writing them anyway! LOL

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2007, 02:21:42 pm »
Well, that's why I try to moderate with a light touch! My goal is to make this a place where folks get along and we don't need to use the ignore button. I used it liberally over on IMDb. I had a few folks on ignore on another forum that shall not be named. I have no one on ignore here. And I like to think that no one is ignoring me. Since I am not getting any blocked PM messages, if I am on someone's ignore list, I am not writing them anyway! LOL

L

Seems to me you folks here do moderate with a light touch (compared to what I've seen over at DCF):)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2007, 02:28:30 pm »
Seems to me you folks here do moderate with a light touch (compared to what I've seen over at DCF):)

Thank you darlin'!  ;)

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Offline louisev

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2007, 02:44:14 pm »
Well that having been said, we as moderators aren't supposed to place others on ignore, but I don't think anything prevents users from placing one or more moderators on ignore!
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2007, 03:01:10 pm »
Well that having been said, we as moderators aren't supposed to place others on ignore, but I don't think anything prevents users from placing one or more moderators on ignore!

Good point, Louise. I guess when I wrote my other post I was thinking without my mod hat on...

L
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2007, 03:12:55 pm »
Seems to me you folks here do moderate with a light touch (compared to what I've seen over at DCF):)

Thank you darlin'!  ;)

L

Well, one thing that I appreciate here is that as long as people play nice, the moderators generally seem to let discussions develop naturally--even organically, you might say--and move in whatever direction they just happen to develop and move in. Someplace else (ahem) I've seen moderators jump in and wrench a discussion back to whatever the thread title just happens to be. I suppose that's an equally valid approach to moderating, but I find it sort of ... constraining.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2007, 03:24:10 pm »
Someplace else (ahem) I've seen moderators jump in and wrench a discussion back to whatever the thread title just happens to be. I suppose that's an equally valid approach to moderating, but I find it sort of ... constraining.

Yes, I've heard that's more the norm on ... some other forums.

My feeling is, if we kept the discussions strictly on track, we'd miss some fascinating detours -- some of which become as interesting as the original topic or more so.

 

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2007, 03:37:27 pm »
Jeff and Katherine,

I agree completely. I have come to think of threads as living, growing things that develop in unexpected and interesting ways. I don't mind if things take a detour...witness the recent sock diversion over on the Heath Heath Heath thread.

L
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2007, 03:40:11 pm »
I agree the topic is what draws to the thread but just following the conversation where-ever it takes you is half the fun.  ;)  Just like face to face conversation.
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2007, 08:32:22 pm »
For instance, I have chosen to ignore myself.  :)

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Sometimes I chastise myself. But I always get off easy. I'm a pushover. :P
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2007, 08:33:03 pm »
:laugh:  But that wouldn't work for me ... I often send myself a message as a kind of reminder, or just to save something for later .... or perhaps just to talk to myself if no one else wants to listen to me!  :-\

Susie  :D

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I bet you have some great conversations with yourself,too, SB!!  ;D
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Offline Toycoon

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2007, 11:57:27 pm »
Well, I'm glad you decided NOT to delete your account. I personally would miss your contibutions to the Jack with Ennis FanFic Game and I know several of your friends there would also miss you very much.  :(
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2007, 03:35:35 pm »
chatter away Susie any ol way you please I LOVE your posts and your sense of humor.... but just so you and Jess have it straight.. David likes ME best  :laugh:
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2007, 03:43:40 pm »
chatter away Susie any ol way you please I LOVE your posts and your sense of humor.... but just so you and Jess have it straight.. David likes ME best  :laugh:

I love reading Susie's posts too, Dottie! She has made me laugh out loud SO MANY TIMES, and a few of those times I really needed a good laugh. I love Susie's wonderful British humor (humour  ;) ) and BetterMost wouldn't be the same without her. We need more people like Susie around here!  :)
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2007, 05:59:22 pm »
Well, one thing that I appreciate here is that as long as people play nice, the moderators generally seem to let discussions develop naturally--even organically, you might say--and move in whatever direction they just happen to develop and move in. Someplace else (ahem) I've seen moderators jump in and wrench a discussion back to whatever the thread title just happens to be. I suppose that's an equally valid approach to moderating, but I find it sort of ... constraining.

I can see the benefits of both styles of moderation.  If you are trying to find a specific piece of information in a thread and a thread suddenly changes course, it might make sense to "moderate" it.  But around here, we usually write the participants and let them know we'd like to split the thread into two independent topics as opposed to dropping a hammer.  We also never delete posts unless they are in serious violation of our personal attack rule.  If a topic goes completely into another world, it can make it very hard to people to find things.

One thing that is very different about this forum as opposed to the ones I've been involved with before is that most of our people are reticent about starting new topics -- they prefer to reply to existing ones.  That is very unusual.  Now I know on some other forums, you have to earn your stripes to be even permitted to start a new topic, but BetterMost has been a real learning experience for me as well in watching how these discussions develop.  And because that is the tendency here, the threads tend to develop organically as you said.  Because that is what the community has grown comfortable with, that is what we do here. 

The truth is, this is the first forum I've been involved with where women are writing in equal numbers (if not more so) than the men are, and that is VERY VERY unusual to see online.  I think this comes from the fact that we are extremely friendly and welcoming to new people, we do not allow personal attacks of any kind, and we are very hands-off about trying to control things.  I'm also thrilled to have a great team of moderators here that have been told to make their respective forums their own.  Ellemeno, who is my co-admin here, has written more messages than I do, and probably knows more about what is going on here than I do.  :)

If you look at my own 'profile' of activity here, you'll find I've comfortably found my niche as master topic starter, having probably opened more new topics than anyone, as well as probably writing more messages that people 'consume' but don't feel any particular need to reply to.  That's my journalistic streak coming through - convey information to people without necessarily being too conversational about it.  But most of my work here is behind the scenes in developing the site and taking care of things around here that people don't necessarily see.  Since I am not a control-freak kind of guy, it's not surprising that I run into people who write me (or even met me in Alberta) who had no idea I even started the site.  And that's fine with me.

The only thing I feel I have not done as well with is pushing our forming agenda here - to help people move within and out of AND BEYOND the story.  There are still a lot of people here who I believe could do well with a more formal and structured approach at self-improvement, fighting depression, and achieving more happiness.  These are goals that need not only community support, but some steps and advice people can follow.  There are folks out there who need more than nice thoughts to get moving forward (I was one myself).  In the early days of the site, I tried a more formal approach with some motivational exercises and advice to help people make some changes, but it didn't garner much response.  Now I'm never sure if that was because my writing style often doesn't suggest people need to reply or if such a structured approach just wasn't going to work here.  But it may be time to revisit that, because we certainly have built a much bigger community than we were back in February of 2006.
You're a part of our family - BetterMost, Wyoming

injest

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Re: Should a member be allowed to delete her/his own account?
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2007, 06:28:27 pm »

*snip*

The only thing I feel I have not done as well with is pushing our forming agenda here - to help people move within and out of AND BEYOND the story.  There are still a lot of people here who I believe could do well with a more formal and structured approach at self-improvement, fighting depression, and achieving more happiness.  These are goals that need not only community support, but some steps and advice people can follow.  There are folks out there who need more than nice thoughts to get moving forward (I was one myself).  In the early days of the site, I tried a more formal approach with some motivational exercises and advice to help people make some changes, but it didn't garner much response.  Now I'm never sure if that was because my writing style often doesn't suggest people need to reply or if such a structured approach just wasn't going to work here.  But it may be time to revisit that, because we certainly have built a much bigger community than we were back in February of 2006.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 >:(

Who you talking about?

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: