Author Topic: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?  (Read 39099 times)

Scott6373

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 03:51:00 pm »
Well I wans't involving myself in the previous conversations.  I was responding to the thread name.   ???

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 04:10:16 pm »
Well I wans't involving myself in the previous conversations.  I was responding to the thread name.   ???

Oh, OK. I guess when someone posts, I tend to assume they're responding to what's been said so far.

Anyway, I think the word "homophobic" in the title is not an attempt to be historically precise, but just shorthand for getting opinions on how Mr. Twist felt about homosexuality. The surprising thing about him, IMO, is how little he seems to object to it -- not how much.

I know what you're saying. Scott. When assessing the racial attitudes of the average 19th century person, for example, it seems a bit unfair to hold them to modern standards, because they haven't had the same opportunities for social enlightenment. Still, when someone's views stand out as particularly enlightened compared to the norms of the time -- as for example, Mark Twain's views about race did in the late 19th century -- it is worth noting.


injest

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 07:08:48 pm »
When I talk about ANYTHING I bring all of my life experiences to bear on it. How can you not? you are shaped by your environment. I think comparing the characters in BBM and comparing them to your own life and expressing your thoughts and feelings is the very reason we are here.

I have never been good at analyzing what the authors meant...I go by Annie's quotee I suppose...that the story is partly written by its readers...

so MY response ALSO was based on my own feelings. Sorry.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 10:07:56 pm »
Well, I agree with Crayons in the general interpretation that Old Man Twist was an all-around unpleasant, rude and mean-spirited guy but not necessarily homophobic.  If we extrapolate into the movie from the story we know he was abusive to Jack, but not necessarily based on Jack's sexuality especially since OMT's tendency towards abusiveness started when Jack was so young.   

I think the fact that Jack told his parents about at least two men (Ennis and the "other fellow") in his life says a lot about how that aspect of his life was perceived and dealt with in his parents' house.  And, I also think that OMT would have accepted Ennis on the ranch with Jack, as others have said, with the main objective from OMT's point of view being the care and maintenance of the ranch.

And, one point I think might be interesting to consider is that Ennis's encounter with OMT is part of his growing and learning experience following Jack's death.  In meeting both of Jack's parents he learns that people could surprise him for the better in the nature of their reactions to their knowledge about his relationship with Jack.  Ennis had gone through life expecting attacks and hatred at every turn when it came to people suspecting about his sexuality.  But, upon meeting Jack's Mom (who clearly knows about his love for Jack) he encounters kindness and sympathy and someone who shares his grief.  And, with OMT, it is a bit more complex because the conversation with him is so uncomfortable. OMT clearly is trying to needle Ennis about what he knows of Jack's statements about the other man, etc.  But, still, OMT is not attacking Ennis or Jack with homophobic slurs or exhibiting the overt and classic signs of homophobia that Ennis might have expected. 

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 11:02:06 pm »
I think comparing the characters in BBM and comparing them to your own life and expressing your thoughts and feelings is the very reason we are here.

I agree.

Quote
so MY response ALSO was based on my own feelings. Sorry.

Of course, IMO, you're going to analyze the story and movie in terms of your own life experiences. As you said, how could you do otherwise? To me, it makes sense to try to figure out how OMT is presented to us by the authors/filmmakers -- they are, after all, characters on their own, and not stereotypes of people we know in real life. But it also makes sense to discuss how we feel about OMT (and everything else).

And, one point I think might be interesting to consider is that Ennis's encounter with OMT is part of his growing and learning experience following Jack's death.  In meeting both of Jack's parents he learns that people could surprise him for the better in the nature of their reactions to their knowledge about his relationship with Jack. 

I agree completely with this, too. I think the whole point of having OMT be surprisingly unhomophobic is to show Ennis that, contrary to his expectation that everybody is homophobic, it turns out it's not as simple as he assumed. And maybe, just to add to the tragedy of his fate, he overestimated the universality of anti-homosexual feelings.



Offline Sagebrush Dan

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2007, 12:27:08 am »

I agree completely with this, too. I think the whole point of having OMT be surprisingly unhomophobic is to show Ennis that, contrary to his expectation that everybody is homophobic, it turns out it's not as simple as he assumed. And maybe, just to add to the tragedy of his fate, he overestimated the universality of anti-homosexual feelings.

I agree too.

And.... I believe the movie left out a very important sentence from the book.  In the book, when OMT is going on about Jack and Ennis moving to his place, he says, "I could have used the help."  This is not in the movie.  This says to me that although OMT may be a little peeved about the relationship, he would have welcomed Ennis and Jack to his ranch — maybe not with open arms, but at least he might have let them live their lives there. 

To threadjack.... I also believe that the book was far more sympathetic to Ennis than the movie was.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2007, 03:11:16 pm »


I agree completely with this, too. I think the whole point of having OMT be surprisingly unhomophobic is to show Ennis that, contrary to his expectation that everybody is homophobic, it turns out it's not as simple as he assumed. And maybe, just to add to the tragedy of his fate, he overestimated the universality of anti-homosexual feelings.




An excellent point. I think that the fear of those forced into a closet in a what is a generally homophobic culture works both ways. Not only do the closeted hide their nature from others who MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be negatively judgemental, but they also cut off friends and relations who just might be to some degree supportive if the issue were honestly addressed. After reading the short story and seeing the movie, I thought that the scene in the Twist kitchen was one of the most tragic. I felt that OMT was in his own way trying to reach out to Ennis, and in his own oblique fashion telling him that he (OMT) regrets that Jack's ideas and plans, "never come to pass".  Yes, OMT appears to most of us as a crude unpleasant man. But doesn't Jack bear some of the responsibility for cutting his parents out of much of his life? I am reminded of scientific reports of wild animals such as some in the larger sized feline family ,like cougars and panthers, who after having been raised in a cage since kittenhood will not leave the cage even if the door of the cage is opened for them. They only know the "security" of the cage and can not conceive of anything else. Perhaps that is the real tragedy of Ennis and Jack and all of those who have lived lives of quiet desperation and regret.
 

moremojo

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2007, 03:25:39 pm »
An excellent point. I think that the fear of those forced into a closet in a what is a generally homophobic culture works both ways. Not only do the closeted hide their nature from others who MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be negatively judgemental, but they also cut off friends and relations who just might be to some degree supportive if the issue were honestly addressed. After reading the short story and seeing the movie, I thought that the scene in the Twist kitchen was one of the most tragic. I felt that OMT was in his own way trying to reach out to Ennis, and in his own oblique fashion telling him that he (OMT) regrets that Jack's ideas and plans, "never come to pass".  Yes, OMT appears to most of us as a crude unpleasant man. But doesn't Jack bear some of the responsibility for cutting his parents out of much of his life? I am reminded of scientific reports of wild animals such as some in the larger sized feline family ,like cougars and panthers, who after having been raised in a cage since kittenhood will not leave the cage even if the door of the cage is opened for them. They only know the "security" of the cage and can not conceive of anything else. Perhaps that is the real tragedy of Ennis and Jack and all of those who have lived lives of quiet desperation and regret.
 
You've honed in here on a reality of the closet that a lot of straight people do not appreciate--that they themselves are hurt and damaged by it too! Lesbigay family members and friends may choose to hide a vital part of themselves from their straight counterparts, or may even cut off relations altogether, all the potential detriment of everyone.

No one escapes unscathed from a racist, misogynist, and homophobic society.

Offline Fran

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2007, 08:52:23 pm »
To threadjack.... I also believe that the book was far more sympathetic to Ennis than the movie was.

I knew the movie was more sympathetic to Jack than the story was, but I hadn't thought about the treatment of Ennis.  Good observation, Sagebrush Dan.  I think I have to agree with you here regarding Ennis.

Offline Sagebrush Dan

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Re: TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2007, 03:15:40 am »
Yeah, Fran.  That was a surprise when I read the book.  In the book, when Jack asked Ennis if he missed him, Ennis replied that he realized his biggest mistake was not going after Jack when he drove away in the pickup.  Also mentioned that he used Jack as a sexual fantasy quite a bit.  However, in the movie, Ennis simply replied, "I don't know."
Also the book mentioned that Ennis was confused by his bisexuality, but the movie makes no mention of this.

Ang Lee basically turned each character into an archetype. It worked, but it would have been nice to see each character as three-dimensional.