Serious Discussions about Life

[injest]

Have things gotten worse or are we viewing the past with rose colored glasses? Everyone on the conservative radio shows go on and on abuot how wonderful everything was back in the fifties....

What about women's rights? minorities? The Cold War???

or is it their youth that they are remembering?

it is amazing to me to see how people's memories are so selective. So is mine? Are my memories real or not?

[Daniel]

Often what we remember is shaded if not colored in completely by propaganda, media coverage, and educational devices designed to keep us misinformed. The Cold War, for instance, while it may not have been started by banking interests, was most likely propelled by them... for defense spending and the scientific industrial labors of that era. When governments are at war, there is one thing that is certain... they borrow money. The Cold War was an international banker's dream. A complete round of "Duelling Banjos", followed by a rousing rendition of "Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better." and the international bankers providing the instruments and the recording devices necessary to create them.

For both the Soviet Union and the United States, I fear that the ultimate effect of the Cold War will be bankruptcy for both nations, unless some extreme actions are carried out to neutralize the national debt and reinvigorate U.S. currency by deprivatizing its production.

So, yes, what we remember is significant... As is our decision to forget. And yes, it is a decision. When we blindly accept what is offered to us and do not act in defense of what we know to be the truth and to be right, we are choosing to let it slide... we are choosing to forget and simply let that force of instruction and education walk over us and what we know to be real. Anything can be painted over this way. Films edited, for instance. Governmental documents forged. Securities overridden. Privacies breached. Rights removed. History books rewritten. Religious intolerance and dogmatic principles made part of our daily existence, and all because we choose to forget. We forget who we are. We forget what we are. We forget that we are. And then we just forget.  A mindless population is the most easily controlled.

[moremojo]

it is amazing to me to see how people's memories are so selective. So is mine? Are my memories real or not?

You might be interested in exploring the films of the great French director Alain Resnais if memory is a theme that concerns or appeals to you. The vagaries and tricky beauty of memory are major motifs in this artist's work. Some pertinent films include Hiroshima mon amour, L'année dernière à Marienbad, Muriel ou Le temps d'un retour, and Je t'aime, je t'aime.

Fellow filmmaker and author Marguerite Duras, who wrote the screenplay for Hiroshima mon amour, shares some of these same preoccupations...her novel L'amant (The Lover), is a representative work, as well as being one of her greatest (approach Jean-Jacques Annaud's dubious film adaptation of L'amant with caution).

[Artiste]

Great subject, you ask now! Thanks!

If you notice on one of my threads or others, you will see that there was a bit more freedom between men in certains times, like in the 30's, 40's, even the 50's, in some ways!! They certainly smiled much more!! ??

Yes??

Hugs!!

[Lynne]

Good grief, Jess!  Lynchings?!  How'd you get there from here??     Not treating this lightly, by any means.  I know well how such stream-of-consciousness browsing can lead you places you don't want to go (or you feel compelled to follow).  Just a week or so ago, Truman sent me a link to Wikipedia which led me to a listing of known victims of GLBT hate crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people).

I swear, I spent hours reading the articles linked with each and every name, took me half the night.  But what really kept me awake was knowing that the 35 names or so listed are the teeny tip of a very large iceburg.  They all deserved better.  And never mind the thousands or more not listed yet.  It might make a good project to research this and add every single name we can find - if we all concentrated on say a 250 mile radius of our homes, I bet we'd add thousands easily.

I believe we as a society have come a long way - I have to believe that.  Homosexuality is no longer classified as a mental illness.  Many companies are offering domestic partner benefits and the number increases all the time.  Gay marriage is legal in the Commonwealth of MA and with enough effort, hopefully it will stay legal there; other states are recognizing civil unions.  Today, the US House passed a bill declaring discrimination in the workplace based on sexual orientation illegal (excepting the military - idiots!).  It does not include transgender people, but most GLBT groups supported anyway as a good step; nonetheless, Shrub is threatening to veto it if a similar measure sponsored by Kennedy is passed by the Senate.  It's out there, it passed, there's dialogue, we're moving forward.

But moving isn't getting there.  And when you have loved ones whose very right to life is threatened because of who they choose to love (like I know you and the rest of us do!), it's very cold comfort.

It's just so frustrating that it seems for every teeny step forward there are people who will smack us back.  Every legal victory results in numerous asinine challenges.  The sheer number of states who have chosen to amend their constitutions to define marriage as M/F is truly appalling.  This whole states' rights business regarding recognition of marriage and/or civil unions is a powder keg just waiting to be ignited.  Hell, we fought a war once allegedly about 'states rights' didn't we??  It boggles my mind that some people believe civil unions are an acceptable alternative to marriage.  I'm no legal scholar, but I think anybody with half a brain gets that 'separate but equal' was struck down by the courts years ago during the civil rights era.  It makes me want to get a law degree and go to work for the ACLU, I swear.

OK..[/rant..as I saw Eric post once  ]

Lynchings...appalling.  I don't know how far removed we are from this, but not far enough.  My last casual bf was black and we had to deal with sh*t from people when we went out.  Daryl actually helped me gain some perspective and moderate my temper or else I'd probably have a record for disorderly conduct.   BUT I did not put up with my father's not-so-veiled comments...OK maybe rant's not over.  Granted he was born in 1939 and a product of the TN hills, BUT I've been making my own decisions since I was about 14 and I loved that 25 years later he thought he deserved(?) some input into my love life.   The conversation went

Him:     'You were raised better than that.'
Me:      'Better than what?'
Him:     (nods at D w/disdain)
Me"      "How would you know?  You stopped raisin me at 14.'
Silence.

It's one of those bitter, ironic, laugh to keep from crying things, but I think I got my point across.

Nonetheless, I'm sure he's got despicable relations, if he didn't have the guts to do it himself...made me seriously consider if D's very life was worth risking for something I wasn't that into in the first place.  I wouldn't put it past them.

[delalluvia]

The night before last, somehow I got off on some website that had pictures of lynchings on it. Page after page.

Do you know people used to make postcards out of those pictures?

and as horrible as the lynched people were...they were dead. They couldn't suffer anymore. What horrifies me about those pictures is the people in the crowd.

How can people have that evil in them and it not show? How can you know looking at people walking down the street what HORRORS they harbor in their souls?

I think about those men...torturing women and boys....and men....and then going home and making love with their wifes...playing with their kids...going about their lives as if nothing happened...

I feel sick just thinking that there are people right HERE...it hasn't been that long that that kind of thing happened...

we like to think we have come so far...that we are so civilized.

Yes, it is hard to believe isn't it?  Amazing what dehumanizing a victim can allow one to do.  Everything from ethnic genocide a la the Old Testament to the spectacles in the ancient Roman Colosseum to heck, just war in general, enables people to do and allow the worst atrocities to each other and not feel so much as a stomach ache.  We aren't very civilized, Jess.  We've barely started wading into the pool that is civilized society.  We call ourselves civilized, but that's just comparatively speaking. 

I've been reading your earlier comments - "mean always wins".  Well, basically yes it does.  Power, force, coercion have enslaved people for millennia.  Might makes right.  Even in the U.S. where we believe our country to be mostly unaggressive (until recently that is  ) we wouldn't have been able to keep our country from being invaded and overrun and conquered had we not an army and location location location to deter others from even trying.

There are moments of brilliance in life - where good will, kindness and peacemakers have gifted the human race with grace, but they are few and far-inbetween.

The most we can do as humans is take refuge in spirituality - praying that the universe is just and has meaning and therefore hope that retribution will be forthcoming for those who have made others suffer - but [shrug] it's just that, a hope. 

But then, good leaders have always used religion as a control as well. 

Are you miserable now?  Downtrodden and oppressed?  Don't worry, the meek shall inherit the earth!  In other words, religion is a good way to get people to shut up about their treatment and accept their situation without rising up.

Even the show 'Desperate Housewives' had a great line.

"Money doesn't buy you happiness."

"Oh yes, it does.  That's just something they tell the poor people so they won't riot."

Of course, on this plane of existence we can always work and keep working and push push push for justice and fairness and inalienable rights for everyone.  But if someone with power and money chooses to oppose us, there's a pretty good chance that greed and power and 'mean' will overcome.  Not forever of course.  Revolutions occur, but then there is always going to be someone out for someone else.  Humans are hierarchical and tribal (meaning someone has to be in charge, someone better than someone else) and so our human nature will not be very easy to overcome.

 A friend of mine and I once discussed what it would take to change the violent trend in U.S. society and she pretty much came to the conclusion that we would have to completely change our value system in this country and that was very unlikely to happen seeing as the U.S. was based on the capitalist system and growth markets and competition and winner take all the rewards.

[Lynne]

Well-said, Del - you make some good arguments here and I absolutely understand and mostly agree with you, I swear.  I particularly agree with you about the role of religion in pacifying the masses, in a sense.

There are moments of brilliance in life - where good will, kindness and peacemakers have gifted the human race with grace, but they are few and far-inbetween.

These are your words, however, that touch me the most...I only have a quibble with the exception at the end.  I submit that the good only seems 'few and far in-between' because of media sensationalism and the like.  Unless we make a major effort on a daily basis, we only get the sensational news, the meaningless sound bytes, and good news without controversy doesn't sell.  Therefore we're left with a perception that the world is going to hell in a bucket.

I would argue that the vast majority of the world's population aspire to a life that is full of good will, kindness, peace, and grace (if they still have the capacity to aspire - those that don't aspire just want food and shelter); however, a small but terrorist/fascist/??? minority seek to undermine that ideal state.  What scares me is how LOUD these voices can be and how the voices opposed to them appear to remain silent.  Is that a news reporting bias?  Am I just being naive?

-Lynne

[delalluvia]

Well-said, Del - you make some good arguments here and I absolutely understand and mostly agree with you, I swear.  I particularly agree with you about the role of religion in pacifying the masses, in a sense.

These are your words, however, that touch me the most...I only have a quibble with the exception at the end.  I submit that the good only seems 'few and far in-between' because of media sensationalism and the like.  Unless we make a major effort on a daily basis, we only get the sensational news, the meaningless sound bytes, and good news without controversy doesn't sell.  Therefore we're left with a perception that the world is going to hell in a bucket.

I would argue that the vast majority of the world's population aspire to a life that is full of good will, kindness, peace, and grace (if they still have the capacity to aspire - those that don't aspire just want food and shelter); however, a small but terrorist/fascist/??? minority seek to undermine that ideal state.  What scares me is how LOUD these voices can be and how the voices opposed to them appear to remain silent.  Is that a news reporting bias?  Am I just being naive?

-Lynne

Thank you, Lynne.  You're absolutely right - I thought about that line 'few and far inbetween' as well after I wrote it.  I was thinking about social/poliitcal events, but you're correct, in everyday life, the majority of the people just want to be happy and live peaceful lives and don't even think about being ugly or mean (except in petty mundane ways) to their neighbors.

As for the LOUD ugly and evil minority groups - it is a media bias, I think.  They're out to make money and need people drawn in to buy newspapers, magazines or to make ratings for their advertisers, so the more they can sensationalize something, the better.  But, at the same time, it doesn't hurt to know such groups exist and where they're coming from.  Forearmed is forewarned.

[Artiste]

Unfortunately, there are anti-gay groups and persons, even to-day and more and more! ??

Too, there remains and grow anti-women liberation such as the islamics... forcing veils and anti-education!

Fortunately, maybe we can keep an eye on some such anti-human activities?

Hugs!

[moremojo]

Jess, you expressed curiosity about how time was conceived within the tradition of Kashmir Shaivism. I wrote to my friend Keith for input on this topic, and this is his reply (edited out of a longer email):

Now, as for time in Kashmir Shaivism, based on what you said in your email, there are two things I guess I should address. 
     First, like the adherents of many other Indian traditions, the Kashmir Shaivas see the universe as beginningless and endless.  They also think that it undergoes cycles of creation and dissolution.  I know of no Indian tradition (with the exception of some that can be found represented in very early texts) that think the universe had a definite beginning and will eventually come to an end.  In philosophy, that idea is rejected as nonsensical.  I can provide you with the reasoning if you’re really interested.  Not all, however, think that the universe undergoes cycles of creation and dissolution.  The Mimamsakas, the most orthodox of all Indian thinkers, believe that the universe is eternal and has always existed much as it does now. 
     Second, the Kashmir Shaivas understand time in terms very similar to those given by Kant in the West.  Time is a mental construction for them.  It is a concept, a category (in the Kantian sense), used to organize our cognitions, but it has no independent reality.  Any given cognition has, as part of its content, the quality “being present.”  When recalling another cognition, you relate that second cognition to the one in which it is recalled by qualifying it with “being past.”  The two cognitions are, in this way, related to one another.  The one is present, the other is past.  Future cognitions, though not known directly, can be expected.  We can then qualify the objects of those expectations with “being future.”  These organizations are not, I should note, arbitrary.  We are hard wired for them.  It’s just part of our mental apparatus to organize our cognitions in this way.  Ultimate reality is, however, beyond time as we generally understand it.  That means that all cognitions actually exist simultaneously.  Time is simply the way they are organized in relation to one another.
     One little note:  On the highest level, there is still a sort of time.  Christians often say “God is outside of time,” but Kashmir Shaivas would not.  There must still be a moment of intention before a moment of action.  Consciousness must desire to create before it creates.  There is, then, a sort of transcendental time.  If there were no such moments, consciousness would be a lifeless emptiness.  If Christians say God is beyond time, then, since he cannot have any intentions, any will or desire leading to an action, he is inert.  He would be the great cosmic stone.  In contrast to this, the Kashmir Shaivas see the highest reality, the unlimited consciousness, as having volition as part of its very essence.  They refer to the highest reality as “Kalasankarshini” (kah-luh-sun-kahr-shuh-nee).  This, literally, means “She who ploughs in time.”  This reality is the hypostasis of all the states of consciousness.  It is that which includes both desire and fulfillment, presentational and representational consciousness.  It is intended to integrate and include all things, but particularly this “subtle” time, into the highest level of reality.