Author Topic: Do You Support The Death Penalty?  (Read 166221 times)

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #220 on: November 12, 2007, 01:15:36 pm »
In the same vein, doesn't the US also use capital punishment in cases where the convict has such a low IQ that he/she must be considered obviously mentally handicapped / "retarded"? (Sorry if I am inadvertently using offensive words here - please bear in mind English is not my first language). I seem to recall rading of such a case.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #221 on: November 12, 2007, 02:30:53 pm »
In the same vein, doesn't the US also use capital punishment in cases where the convict has such a low IQ that he/she must be considered obviously mentally handicapped / "retarded"? (Sorry if I am inadvertently using offensive words here - please bear in mind English is not my first language). I seem to recall rading of such a case.

According to my five minutes of internet research, in 2002 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against executing people with IQs lower than 70. Before then, it had been legal (in the states where the death penalty is legal).


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #222 on: November 13, 2007, 09:32:35 am »
Well, as someone who is on the no-death-penalty side but less into the "love the humanity of the criminal" perspective, I'll have to say that IMO there's a pretty big difference between hating someone because they're gay, black or poor -- and hating someone because they tortured people to death.

We're not responsible for our race, sexual orientation or, in many cases, our socioeconomic status. But we are responsible for our actions. Plus, there's nothing inherently bad or good about being black, white, gay, straight, poor or rich (well, rich can be nice, but you know what I mean -- it doesn't mean the person is good). Torturing people to death? Always bad.

So I'm afraid I don't feel much sympathy for those who commit heinous crimes. I just don't think we should kill them.






Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #223 on: November 13, 2007, 02:08:37 pm »
I know you well enough to trust you, Ineedcrayons.  However, if you suddenly weren't here anymore because you were carted off to the pokey after having murdered someone, I would be shocked by the news, but I wouldn't really be surprised.  Not really.  And I wouldn't hate you.  I would probably even go so far as to send you letters in prison.   ;D  (Maybe even cartons of cigarettes.  I hear they work like money behind bars.)

Thanks, Gary! Good to know I'll still have at least one friend on the outside. I like Camel Lights, OK? :D

Well, I've never been a violent type, and I've already stated that I think killing is wrong -- but sure, it's not totally impossible for me to imagine wildly improbable circumstances under which I might wind up committing a murder. So I should clarify that I don't necessarily hate ALL murderers. I don't hate that woman who, suffering from post-partum depression, drowned her children -- on the contrary, I feel terribly sorry for her. My local paper just featured a story by a columnist whose childhood friend is in prison for murder -- the woman had become a crack addict and one night, on crack, shot someone she thought had stolen some jewelry from her. I don't hate that woman, and I can understand why her friend the columnist doesn't hate her.

But people who methodically torture children (or adults) to death, or who go out looking for victims to kill in sadistic ways out for the pleasure or compulsion of killing -- they're different. I don't want to execute them, but I don't love them. I certainly don't love Mr. Del Mar, and we're not even sure he done the job.

So I'll have to say that it is pretty much impossible for me to envision circumstances in which I'd be led to do that. I'm knocking on my wooden desk just so the gods don't mischievously set up events to teach me how wrong I am (they have a way of doing that when I make some bold declaration about myself). But really, while I most certainly do have a dark side, I can't imagine what triggers would turn me into a torturer or serial killer.

So if you hear that I have turned to torture, Gary, and your opinion of me changed, I'd perfectly understand.  :-\




Dagi

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #224 on: November 13, 2007, 03:09:29 pm »
I think that many of those triggers happen early in life. With that I don't mean that every child that must grow up without love becomes a serial killer, nor that a "happy" childhood is a guarantee for not turning one, that's too easy. But in my humble opinion our will is less free than we want to believe. It is a fact, for example, that many of those who abuse children have been abused themselves in their childhood.
To think about for what reason a person becomes what he or she is can teach us a lot about ourselves. What makes a person capable of empathy? What makes a person put their own interest above the interests of others? What makes a person capable of controlling impulses? What would have become of me, had I grown up under different circumstances?

Dagi

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #225 on: November 13, 2007, 04:17:28 pm »
Hi Dagi and Gary,

I see what you both are saying. I really do. And I also try to take into account what circumstances might have made people the way they are. I don't think those can be ignored. I realize that someone who had a terrible childhood is likely to have a harder time becoming a good and productive adult than someone whose childhood was happy. In addressing crime, for example, I think one of the most important things we can do is help people have better childhoods -- kinder, less poor, more enriching, happier.

I also absolutely agree that we should try to understand what makes people do bad things. Of course! Is it genetic? Environmental? Is it preventable? And no, I'm not saying those people are inherently more evil than others. I don't really believe in "evil" in that sense. I'm not saying they're a different species or anything. We're all shaped by a combination of our genes and our environments.

But. On the other hand, I also believe people ultimately have to be held responsible for their actions. If they're not, then what do actions even mean?

I'm not saying I "hate" Jeffrey Dahmer. Hate is a stronger word than what I feel toward Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't want to kill him or even necessarily see him suffer. But I don't love him. I love my children and my relatives and close friends. How could I put Jeffrey Dahmer in that same group?

Or maybe we're talking about something other than love. Maybe "respect as a human being" or something like that. But even then, how can I respect Nelson Mandella and Jeffrey Dahmer equally? If I did, doesn't that give Nelson Mandella's achievements kind of short shrift?

Circumstances do, indeed, shape people. But I also think humans have some degree of free will. I've known people who grew up in terrible circumstances and turned out fine. If they hadn't turned out fine, it would be understandable -- even predictable. But they did turn out fine, and they should get credit for it. People should be lauded for doing good. The flip side is that they should be held accountable for doing bad.

P.S. Gary -- that was some really good advice from that author! I don't know about love, but I do think that an author has to empathize with his/her characters, that is to understand what makes them act the way they do.

P.S.S. I'm taking a big test next week. There's one section in which you have to critique an argument that's provided. I'm really hoping the argument involves 1) the death penalty 2) abortion or 3) circumcision or maybe 4) whether all straight people are homophobic. What better practice is there than these threads?


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #226 on: November 13, 2007, 08:33:24 pm »
Hi Dagi and Gary,

I see what you both are saying. I really do. And I also try to take into account what circumstances might have made people the way they are. I don't think those can be ignored. I realize that someone who had a terrible childhood is likely to have a harder time becoming a good and productive adult than someone whose childhood was happy. In addressing crime, for example, I think one of the most important things we can do is help people have better childhoods -- kinder, less poor, more enriching, happier.

I also absolutely agree that we should try to understand what makes people do bad things. Of course! Is it genetic? Environmental? Is it preventable? And no, I'm not saying those people are inherently more evil than others. I don't really believe in "evil" in that sense. I'm not saying they're a different species or anything. We're all shaped by a combination of our genes and our environments.

But. On the other hand, I also believe people ultimately have to be held responsible for their actions. If they're not, then what do actions even mean?

I'm not saying I "hate" Jeffrey Dahmer. Hate is a stronger word than what I feel toward Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't want to kill him or even necessarily see him suffer. But I don't love him. I love my children and my relatives and close friends. How could I put Jeffrey Dahmer in that same group?

Or maybe we're talking about something other than love. Maybe "respect as a human being" or something like that. But even then, how can I respect Nelson Mandella and Jeffrey Dahmer equally? If I did, doesn't that give Nelson Mandella's achievements kind of short shrift?

Circumstances do, indeed, shape people. But I also think humans have some degree of free will. I've known people who grew up in terrible circumstances and turned out fine. If they hadn't turned out fine, it would be understandable -- even predictable. But they did turn out fine, and they should get credit for it. People should be lauded for doing good. The flip side is that they should be held accountable for doing bad.

P.S. Gary -- that was some really good advice from that author! I don't know about love, but I do think that an author has to empathize with his/her characters, that is to understand what makes them act the way they do.

P.S.S. I'm taking a big test next week. There's one section in which you have to critique an argument that's provided. I'm really hoping the argument involves 1) the death penalty 2) abortion or 3) circumcision or maybe 4) whether all straight people are homophobic. What better practice is there than these threads?



Well whadda ya know.  I agree with crayon's last few posts  ;D

I don't "hate" those who commit heinous crimes.  They shouldn't flatter themselves, I've never hated anyone.  As Gary says, hating leads to the Darkside, but just because I don't hate them doesn't mean I must love them or whatever.

As crayon says, understanding where someone comes from is fine and dandy.  But at some point people stop being victims of their bad childhood and start making their own decisions and most of these perps know their actions are wrong because they inevitably try to hide evidence of their crimes.  You don't stop learning or growing just because you've left childhood.  Being poor and dispossessed and thus prone to crime I don't agree with.  They are all mutually exclusive.  Somewhere along the way, people make wrong decisions.   There are plenty of good role models around, and the fact that these heinous killers don't seek help, don't try to emulate good people when they know the consequences is just a sign of the fact that they're incorrigible or something is literally wrong in their heads and is never going to be fixed.

Thanks for the link crayons, I'll check it out.  I'm anxious to talk to my friend the debate coach to find out what she and her team finally used for a defense, but I only see her when they don't have a tournament which is like once every few months.  Probably Thanksgiving break will be the next time I see her.  Speaking of - she came from an abusive background and turned out just peachy - as far as society in general is concerned anyway.  :-\

As a quick aside to Gary - humans aren't prone to war, it's men who are prone to violence and war.

As for Mikaela and More's posts about executing children or people who committed crimes while they were children and retarded folk, I haven't yet made up my mind.

On the one hand, the latest research indicates that young people under a certain age, literally have brains that have not yet finished developing and their thinking does not go very far past action/consequence.  They cannot think far enough ahead of any action they take as to what might be the consequences.  That's why you see kids doing absolutely stupid things when you think they should know better.  On the other hand, kids develop consciences very young, so if they don't have it by the time they're a teen, they're not likely to get one.  And also, not all kids are like that.  I acted very much my age when I was a teen, but having grown up where I did, I also knew very well what the consequences of my actions would be in regards to boys and commiting crimes.

As for the mentally-challenged folk.  Again, my jury is still out.  On the one hand, they don't really know what they're doing - but unlike kids - they will never know what they're doing, so that will make them dangerous the rest of their lives.

Dunno. 

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #227 on: November 13, 2007, 09:30:02 pm »
I'm still not making myself clear, then. I'm going to quote Gary again: "It's our understanding of the morals that is relative, not the morals themselves." That is, just because people disagree on what is right and wrong doesn't mean that whatever somebody thinks is OK for them. If that were the case, slavery and concentration camps would both have been just fine. No, the moral absolutes still exist, even if people interpret them incorrectly.

OK, I'm with you in the sense that in our society, we consider some things unacceptable.  But I can't say that they're moral absolutes simply because it's only we that think so.  We consider other people's morals wrong, but on what 'moral' high ground are we standing on to say so?  After all, if everyone has slavery, and you're just as likely to end up a slave as not, in a society that does not have Enlightenment thinking...it is perfectly 'moral' and perfectly normal.

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Sorry, but I have absolutely no problem calling "murder is wrong except in self defense or to defend other innocents" a moral absolute.

OK, I'm just pointing out that if you make an exception and still call it an absolute, then that leaves the door open for everyone else to make an exception and call it an absolute.

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I wasn't attempting to do that.

But if you're asking how the judicial system and government policy differs from the rest of life, the answer is they are public institutions and, in a democracy, are expected to attempt to treat all citizens equally, regardless of race, wealth and other demographic differences.

We live in a Republic more than a democracy.  We have high goals of everyone being equal and treated equally under the law, but we're still a ways from that actually being the case, so injustices abound.  But that doesn' t mean we should totally abandon the experiment.

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Yep. That's what I said. That's why there's no need to kill anybody.

OK, I just hold a different opinion about our 'needs'.

injest

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #228 on: November 13, 2007, 09:33:21 pm »
Thanks so much Scott for the kind words.  I appreciate that.

I’ve been thinking of what you said about criminals having humanity, and how we should respect that.  I don’t think very many people do have much respect for the humanity of the criminal element.  Although I wouldn’t go so far as to question the motives of anyone here, I do think that in a general sense we do demonize people in an attempt to make us feel good about ourselves. 


Gary

there is another possibility, Garry...I think people have to make some sense of life in general...they look for a reason or a factor that caused this person to do what they did. What makes one person go home and fuss to his wife about the guy that cut him off in traffic and another stop their car and use a baseball bat on the other persons car...

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #229 on: November 13, 2007, 09:39:49 pm »
The overwhelming majority of American women -- WOMEN -- supported the Iraq war in the beginning.  And I recall clearly seeing women -- WOMEN -- dancing in the streets in the middle east after 9/11 on television.

As I recall, those tapes of women dancing were later discovered to be tapes from years before about a totally different event.  And consider the source, in a society ruled by men and their rule enforced on their women by violence, I'm not really surprised to see women supporting their menfolk no matter their actions.  What choice do they have?

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Women may be somewhat less prone to violence than men, and that probably has something to do with male hormones, or lack there of, but women have their dark sides.  (Condolisa Rice has her fingerprints all over the Iraq war, BTW.)  This idea that women are sweetness and light is crap.  I've known a lot of hateful and vicious women.  Some of the most cruel, hateful, and most homophobic remarks made to me in my lifetime have come from women.  So please spare me this idea that men are the cause of the world's problems.   ::)

Somewhat less?  I'm sorry Gary you only need to read the statistics of the percentage of what gender is in prison and who in the world commits the most violence.  That isn't a sweetness and light bias - which I never claimed in the first place.  And note, you only had homophobic remarks from women.  How many have actually offered you violence?  Sticks and stones...

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If women were in charge of the world it might be a different place.  But it would still be a very screwed up place.

Probably, simply because men would still be in the world and we're still controlled by our evolutionary drives.

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And just so I'm clear here, I'd like to say that just because the state has accused someone of something, and just because they've been convicted, I don't necessarily believe they are guilty of anything.  I am forever suspect of the state's motives and competence.  Which I think is the duty of every citizen of a free and democratic society.

Sure, it is our duty to question authority, but to keep questioning it in the face of hard facts is pointless.