Author Topic: Do You Support The Death Penalty?  (Read 168225 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #290 on: November 16, 2007, 09:09:33 pm »
Mikaela, to me this sentence expresses not only the moral problem with capital punishment, but the practical one as well. As long as a society promotes killing as an acceptable solution to bad behavior, there will be murderers who essentially think they can judge bad behavior just as well as the government does. They may not rationalize it quite that clearly in their minds, but in effect that's what happens -- citizens are socialized to see killing as within the bounds of reasonable human conduct.

Socialized, sure.  But are you saying that's the same thing as not having very charged emotions about having to do it?  Again, assumptions are being made about the people who sentence heinous killers to death.  You make it sound like they have just a la-di-da, how was your day? attitude when that's not the case at all.

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For the same reason you don't teach children not to hit by hitting them, you don't as a society promote violence if you don't want a violent society overall.

Well actually that's another argument altogether.  ;D  I certainly believe that spanking should be a parental option for disciplining a child.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #291 on: November 16, 2007, 09:15:17 pm »
You may have noticed that I like to stress, when discussing the death penalty, that I don't shed any tears for the individual criminals subjected to it. That's because I don't think you should have to feel sorry for someone in order to object to their life being taken. I hate what heinous criminals do. But their actions do not provide an excuse for us to descend to their level.

See, here is where we start running into problems.

A person is a law-abiding citizen, loves their parents, spouse, children, dogs, cats, sends money to charities, volunteers at the local shelter, supports minority rights, pays taxes, votes, has a job, is dependable, reliable, mature...

But if they happen to support captial punishment - suddenly these people are at the same level as a heinous murderer?!?!?

I most certainly take exception to that and find that statement extremely offensive.

EDITED TO ADD:  See my next post.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #292 on: November 16, 2007, 09:27:18 pm »

I do not think it's insensitive to voice my opinion, and I've tried to maintain a reasonable and calm tone in my posts  - I'm certainly not trying to be offensive. However, in weighing the tender sensibilities of a person administering the death penalty against speaking up for someone about to be put to death, I have to chose the the latter even if the former is offended.  I would think that someone who is able to live with the fact that he/she is a direct contributor to administering the death penalty would also be able to hear an opinion such as mine voiced without being hurt and taking offense.

I'm not saying people on this discussion are being ugly or taking personal jabs, but yes, some things being said are offensive.

As for the above, I don't know where you stand on a woman's right to an abortion, but pro-life activists take this same stance.  They believe women seeking abortions are wrong and thus have no problem being offensive and insulting those women who are trying to exercise their legal rights.  They're putting babies to death, you see and thus they feel that gives them the right to act as they do.


Offline Shasta542

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #293 on: November 16, 2007, 09:32:47 pm »
This sentiment would suggest that you might do better to align yourself against capital punishment. That seems like a fairly good litmus test: If I can't do such and such, and can't bear my loved one to have to do such and such, then maybe such and such shouldn't be done by anyone.

This reminds me of my superduper rationalization against war: For any war, ask yourself, "Am I willing to die myself for this war?" If you cannot honestly answer in the affirmative, then any support you give to that war is hypocritical.

There are limitations to this kind or reasoning, of course. For example, I would rather die than ever pilot an airplane, yet airplane pilot is a useful and perhaps even necessary occupation. I'm glad someone can play that role, and that I'm not the one doing it.

Soldier is a useful and necessary occupation too. I don't want to be one, but I'm glad someone does.

I don't want to be a police officer, but I am happy that someone wants to. That's a useful and necessary occupation. Same with fireman.

I don't think people who don't wish to do that job are hypocrites. I believe that I need to be supportive of those roles because I wish to be protected by them. I'm always respectful to policemen when they stop me -- even if I wasn't doing what they thought. If I wanted to be protected by them, but I was rude to them when they try to do their jobs, I'd be a hypocrite I think -- but not one just because I don't want that profession.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #294 on: November 17, 2007, 02:06:14 am »
But if they happen to support captial punishment - suddenly these people are at the same level as a heinous murderer?!?!?

I most certainly take exception to that and find that statement extremely offensive.

Sorry, Del, and I'm glad to see that in your next post you clarify it to indicate you don't feel people are being ugly or taking personal jabs. Of course I didn't mean the "on the same level" quite that literally. I'm not saying that there's absolutely no distinction whatsoever between a tax-paying, charity-giving, family-loving death penalty supporter and a heinous murderer. As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't care if a heinous murderer fell off a cliff. And of course I don't feel that way about death-penalty supporters on the basis of their beliefs.

What I was talking about was that the death-penalty proponent and the heinous murderer have taken the same approach, or at least share an opinion, where killing is concerned. At whatever level, on whatever basis, both see killing as an acceptable action under certain circumstances.

I think we're discussing an issue that people obviously feel very passionately about, and sometimes they will make strong statements to express those feelings. I hope we can continue to discuss it without people taking personal offense. That's sort of the nature of this kind of thread. I can imagine someone coming back and saying, "Well, YOU'RE just as bad as a heinous criminal because you would let him get away with taking someone's life but let him just keep on living happily ever after." Or whatever. It's a thorny issue, with a lot of intense emotion on each side, and I think we have to prepare ourselves for that, or not get involved in this kind of thread in the first place. We're expressing political opinions -- as you said, it's not personal.

But you're a tough arguer, Del, so I hope you can see what I'm saying.




Offline Lynne

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #295 on: November 17, 2007, 02:58:57 am »
But you're a tough arguer, Del, so I hope you can see what I'm saying.

True, that! ;) Tell you what, I really enjoy these sorts of discussions, especially when we keep it respectful (and we do a fab job of that as a rule).  I like feeling my brain being challenged by differeing viewpoints and making myself stop and think about WHY I feel the way I do.  So thanks to everyone who participates!
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #296 on: November 17, 2007, 07:34:27 am »
I'm not saying people on this discussion are being ugly or taking personal jabs, but yes, some things being said are offensive.

As for the above, I don't know where you stand on a woman's right to an abortion

My stance on that is well documented in this very thread. I think we happen to fully agree on that subject...

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....but pro-life activists take this same stance.  They believe women seeking abortions are wrong and thus have no problem being offensive and insulting those women who are trying to exercise their legal rights.  They're putting babies to death, you see and thus they feel that gives them the right to act as they do.

There's a huge difference between acting, and speaking your mind in a calm and considered voice in the approprioate forum. The latter is what I've been trying to do throughout and in looking back I do not think I've said anything offensive for a discussion on this topic, - nothing that anyone involved with capital punishments or supporting capital punishments shouldn't already have considered themselves and must be prepared to hear voiced in a discussion on the topic - nothing they should not already know is the strong conviction of others.

Inhumanity is not a word I think it's necessary to find polite oblique euphemisms for.

Now concerning abortions, I've certainly always admittet the pro-lifers right to speak their mind and to express in discussions that they think abortion is "killing a baby". It irks me somewhat personally to hear it, and I admit as much - since this is such a sensitive subject and I strongly disagree with their opinion. But I accept that they really think so, and I wouldn't stop them from saying it or arguing that case in the appropriate forum and situation (which is *not* screaming it furiously into the face of a distraught woman trying to enter an abortion clinic).  In fact, their insistence on their "pro-life" view  has certainly caused me (and probably others) to examine much more closely my personal stance on abortion - pondering whether I've sufficiently considered their objections to my own opinion. I would hope and even expect that the responsibles for the death penalty and indeed supporters of the death penalty would react in the same way upon hearing arguments like mine.

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assumptions are being made about the people who sentence heinous killers to death.  You make it sound like they have just a la-di-da, how was your day? attitude when that's not the case at all.

I guess we have no idea how each individual among these persons (and the executioners and everyone involved in the practical carrying out of a death sentence) feel about what they're doing.... I guess they probably run the whole gamut of the spectre from being very torn about it, struggling with their conscience, to actually feeling pretty la-di-da-how-was-your-day about it. As Gary says above;
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I remember one of my psychology profs telling us that not all psychopathes are criminals.  Some of them find ways to operate inside the law....
But however that may be, in all cases, the point is that they *do* do their job and so they have a direct responsibility for the death that follows - it is not possible to claim "they were just following orders / doing their job" to avoid that personal responsibility. If they believed that their job and those orders were wrong and inhumane, at a minimum they should walk away from it.

This has me right back to thinking about the people actually involved with carrying out executions. I cannot imagine that their work doesn't have a thoroughly dehumanizing impact on them  -  at the very least that they close off their human emotions and their empathy, and that that is not something that can just be switched on again at the end of the working day. 

And that is actually a point I'd like to hear more about in this discussion. How does their work impact those directly involved in the practicalities of capital punishment? What kind of persons, what type of personality take on this kind of job? I know the last UK executioner of many years wrote an autobiography. Has anyone here read it?


Offline Mikaela

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #297 on: November 17, 2007, 08:49:39 am »
Albert Pierrepoint

Well, I'm back. I've googled a bit and here is the Wikipedia entry on Albert Pierrepoint, "by far the most prolific British hangman of the twentieth century":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pierrepoint

Without vouching for the accuracy of the Wikipedia article, it says that:

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Pierrepoint became an opponent of capital punishment. The reason for this seems to be a combination of the experiences of his father, his uncle, and himself, whereupon reprieves were granted in accordance with political expediency or public fancy and little to do with the merits of the case in question. [   ]  But Pierrepoint kept his opinions to himself on the topic until his 1974 autobiography, Executioner: Pierrepoint, in which he commented:

"I have come to the conclusion that executions solve nothing, and are only an antiquated relic of a primitive desire for revenge which takes the easy way and hands over the responsibility for revenge to other people...The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for everybody, but everybody differed about who should get off."

The reason why Pierrepoint quit as an executioner has the strong ring of irony of fate, it's almost surreal, as I personally imagine that much of the practical proceedings surrounding a contemporary execution (last meal, last words....etc) must seem surreal to those involved: Far from it being an ethical statement on his part or resulting from an epiphany of any sort, he merely quit due to financial quibbling - due to a quarrel over 14 pounds in missing executioner's fees in the case of a last-minute-pardon:

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Albert Pierrepoint resigned in 1956 over a disagreement with the Home Office about his fees. In January 1956 he had gone to Strangeways Prison, Manchester, to officiate at the execution of Thomas Bancroft, who was reprieved less than twelve hours before his scheduled execution, when Pierrepoint was already present making his preparations - the first time in his career that this had happened in England. He claimed his full fee of £15 but the under-sheriff of Lancashire offered only £1, as the rule in England was that the executioner was only paid for executions carried out – in Scotland he would have been paid in full.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #298 on: November 17, 2007, 12:35:08 pm »
Little Rest, or Peace, for Texas Executioners
Huntsville death chamber is nation's busiest

Sara Rimer / New York Times

Jim Willett, Huntsville, Texas Executioner & Warden Huntsville, Texas -- Jim Willett, the warden of the prison here, awakened a little before 5 a. m. on Dec. 5 in his home, which his wife, Janice, had decorated for Christmas. He had not been looking forward to the day.

"My first thought was 'Today's an execution,' " he recalled later that morning. " 'I wonder what he'll be like.' "

Willett said he was hoping that the man who was to be put to death shortly after 6 p.m. would not resist and that the execution would proceed smoothly. Willett's job requires him to stand at the head of the person strapped on the gurney and to signal the anonymous executioner in the next room to inject the sedative and two lethal chemicals through a syringe. In his two and a half years as warden, Willett has given the signal -- raising his glasses -- that has killed 84 people.

"Just from a Christian standpoint, you can't see one of these and not consider that maybe it's not right," said Willett, 50.

It is the worst part of his job, he said, but it is his job just the same.

Now the prison, known as the Huntsville unit, was about to execute three men in three days. While that is not an unusual week for Huntsville, the United States' busiest death chamber, it would bring the year's total to 40, the most people legally killed by any state in one year in U.S. history, according to the Death Penalty Information Center, a nonprofit research group in Washington.

Those who champion the death penalty, the law-enforcement officials who call for it, the juries who vote for it, the judges who uphold it, the pardon boards and the governors who sign off on it, are not the ones who walk into the death chamber and help end lives.

That task falls to Willett and a dozen or so members of his staff: husbands and fathers who coach baseball, go fishing, attend church and lead mostly ordinary lives except when it comes time to lead the condemned to a 9-by-12- foot room deep inside the prison, and secure them to a gurney with eight mustard-colored leather straps so that they can be injected with the drugs that will kill them.

The first lethal injection in the country was performed in that room in 1982, and with the three executions in the week of Dec. 3 the total number rose to 239, more than half of them in the last four years.

These men do their jobs in a town and a state that ardently support the death penalty. But in the week of the three executions they shared their usually unspoken doubts, including their uneasiness with the detachment that allows them to go about their work.

Kenneth Dean, 37, is the head of the tie-down team, which does exactly what the name implies. A shy, burly man, Dean has performed that job about 130 times. He does not like to keep count.

On Tuesday morning, Dec. 5, he had made plans with his children -- Kourtney,

7, and Kevin, 13 -- for the evening. Recently divorced, he spends a couple of hours with them on Tuesday nights.

"I told them, 'Daddy has to work late tonight, he has an execution.' " Lately, Dean said, his daughter has been asking a lot of questions: " 'What is an execution? What do you do?'

"It's hard explaining to a 7-year-old," he added.

From all reports, Garry Miller, 33, a former bartender who was to be put to death on Dec. 5 for the 1989 rape and murder of 7-year-old April Marie Wilson, was not going to give them any trouble. He had told his lawyers not to file any further appeals. He said he was ready to die.

At 6:07 p.m., Dean escorted members of the victim's family, several prison officials and reporters down a long corridor and past a steel door into what is known as the death house: eight cells and the death chamber.

The witnesses stared through a large, barred window into the death chamber. Miller, a big man with glasses and an inmate's pasty skin, was lying on the gurney, with a Bible on his chest, under a white sheet. He had an IV in each wrist. The IVs are always inserted before the witnesses are brought in. Miller's head rested on a pillow.

The warden stood just behind Miller's head. The prison chaplain, Jim Brazzil, was at his feet.

Miller looked straight at Marjorie Howlett, the mother of the little girl he had killed, who was crying. They had known each other before the murder.

"Maggie, I am sorry," Miller said through a microphone above his head. "I always wanted to tell you, but I just didn't know how."

He said a brief prayer and told the warden he was ready. The warden raised his glasses. At 6:23 p.m., a doctor came into the room and pronounced Miller dead.

After the witnesses filed out, the tie-down team re-entered the death chamber, unfastened the straps around Miller's body, and transferred him to another gurney. The body was loaded into a waiting hearse and taken away. The death certificate would read: "State-ordered legal homicide."

About 15 minutes later, as part of the execution-night ritual, Howlett was seated in the office across from the prison, answering reporters' questions. "I'm very glad I came," she said. "I had to see him gone."

By 7 p.m., an exhausted Dean was across town, sitting with his children in his car in the driveway of his former wife. His daughter was on his lap. "She said, 'Do you have another one tomorrow?' " Dean recalled later. "I said, 'Yes,

I have one for the next two days.'

"She said, 'Why do you have so many this week?' I said, 'I don't know, sweetie.' "

Dean, who is a Baptist, says he prays before and after every execution. He did not tell his daughter about his own questions. "All of us wonder if it's right," he said earlier in the day. "You know, there's a higher judgment than us. You second-guess yourself. I know how I feel, but is it the right way to feel? Is what we do right? But if we didn't do it, who would do it?"

The maximum-security Huntsville unit, built in 1848, takes up two blocks in the middle of this East Texas town of 35,000 people. Its red-brick walls are 30 feet high; hence its nickname, The Walls. A Christmas sign, a herd of reindeer and a string of Christmas lights decorate the front wall.

The business of Huntsville is the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, known as the TDCJ, which has its headquarters there. There are seven prisons in the area, housing about 13,400 inmates. The prison containing death row, where there are 443 condemned people, is in Livingston, 40 miles away. They are brought here on the afternoon of their execution and spend their final hours in a death-house cell.

It is better, Dean said, that the death-row inmates are in Livingston. That way, he said, he and his fellow officers are not helping execute people they know.

On Dec. 6, Dean was talking of how he sometimes worried about his own detachment. "That was one part I had to deal with," he said. "You expect to feel a certain way; then you think, 'Is there something wrong with me that I don't?' Then after a while you get to think, 'Why isn't this bothering me?' It is such a clinical process. You expect the worst with death, but you don't see the worst in death."

The detachment Dean describes is not only common among those who participate in executions, but necessary for them to be able to do their jobs, said Robert Jay Lifton, a psychiatrist who, with Greg Mitchell, wrote about such people in a new book, "Who Owns Death? Capital Punishment, the American Conscience and the End of Executions."

"It violates a profound human reluctance to kill, and they must overcome it,
" Lifton said. The clinical nature of lethal injections makes it easier to kill. "You have the ultimate form of medicalization, which enables those carrying out the execution in many cases to feel very little," Lifton said. "It also mutes it for the society at large."

Shortly before 1 p.m. Dean and Terry Green, another member of the tie-down team, were awaiting the arrival of Daniel Hittle, a 50-year-old former welder, who was to be executed that evening for the 1989 murder of a Garland police officer, Gerald Walker.

The prison world is one in which it is difficult to refuse a request from a superior, but turning down an invitation to serve on the death team is one refusal that is acceptable, Dean and Green said. Those who participate in executions must be at the rank of sergeant or above, which means there is a pool of about 25 people. Several have declined. "No one looks down on them," said Green, 48, a captain who has been a member of the tie-down team for two years.

There is no extra pay for executions.


Dean said he had thought long and hard about his stand on the death penalty before he said "yes" 10 years ago to a supervisor's request that he join the team. "I researched it," he said. "I spoke to pastors to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting what the Bible said about the death penalty."

Green nodded. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," he said, paraphrasing Matthew 22:22. To Green, who is a Baptist, that passage means that the law should be upheld, and in Texas the law requires that some people be executed for their crimes. Green says he sees the tie-down team as upholding the law.

Hittle's execution went smoothly. When it was over, the widow of the murdered officer, Beckie Walker, left without talking to reporters. Jimmie George, an officer with the Garland Police Department, released a statement.

"The death of Daniel Hittle does not bring Gerald back," it said, but would "guarantee that no police officer will ever face the danger of dealing with him again."

The following day, Dec. 7, the warden was in a reflective mood.

"I don't really know how I feel about this," Willett said. "The sad thing is we end up with more victims, like the inmate's mother. Can you imagine watching your son die?

"On the other hand," he added, "I can understand why she's there."

Relatives of the condemned can witness the execution, and many times the warden has looked on as the mother of the man on the gurney watched her son take his last breath. None of the mothers or fathers of the three condemned men were there.

It looked as though the third execution was going to hold to the routine. Shortly before noon, Willett's secretary, Kim Huff, had an update on Claude Jones, who was to be executed for the 1989 armed robbery and murder of a liquor-store owner, Allen Hilzendager, 44, in the town of Point Blank.

"He says he doesn't want a damn stay; he's 60 years old, he's ready to go," Huff said.

The warden left to meet his wife for a rare lunch out. When Willett got up from the table to greet friends, his wife talked about the toll the job takes on him.

"I was so worried about him a few weeks ago," she said, referring to her husband's reaction to a man he had helped kill recently. "He said, 'I met one of the nicest men I've ever met today.' I thought, 'Oh, he's fixing to break.' "

The usually easygoing and genial warden did not break. But after nearly 30 years with TDCJ, Willett is looking forward to his retirement early next year, when he said he could stop "messing with these executions."

That day, the odds caught up with the warden and the others. The third execution did not go smoothly. It was delayed by about 30 minutes while the medical team struggled to insert an IV into a vein of Jones, who had been a longtime intravenous drug user.

Leaving the prison at about 7 p.m., Dean looked drained.

"They had to stick him about five times," he said. "They finally put it in his leg."

Hilzendager's sister, Gayle Currie, witnessed the execution. "It gave me a peace of mind to know that he will never hurt anyone again," Currie said afterward.

Larry Fitzgerald, a prison spokesman whose job requires him to witness every execution, was visibly relieved. "This is the best day of the year for me," he said. "I don't have any more executions this year. I've had it. Forty is a lot." He had now witnessed 144 executions in five years.

"It bothers me," said Fitzgerald, 63, "that I don't remember all their names."

The executions will start again in January. Three more are scheduled for that month.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #299 on: April 08, 2008, 11:36:25 pm »
Actually, the reason I specified New Orleans is because I didn't hear of them as often in Minneapolis. Why, I wonder? Perhaps because it's not as much of a gun culture -- despite the lack of death penalty? Part of it could be that I just didn't pay as much attention there -- with it no longer a professional requirement, I avoided the sad parts of the paper where stories like that normally run. (Ditto Chicago.) But really, I think they happened more often in LA.

Oh, well, of course. I agree. I just don't think these are as easily prevented by handgun laws.

Here, as I outlined ad nauseum in the Death Penalty thread, is where I would disagree.

Though of course you're somewhat of a self-selecting sample (how's that for alliteration?). The children who WERE tempted to mishandle their parents guns may not be here to post about it. But note that of the examples I listed in my previous post, the one you quoted, only one of them involved mishandling by a child.



I like your sibilant alliteration! And thank you for an excellent example of an "selected sample" to illustrate gun violence : your choice of NO. NO's violence has as much to do with the local NO demography, their culture and folkways as their possesion of firearms. I noted in another thread in a galaxy far,far away and long,long ago, that after Katrina, the city of Houston was deluged with NO refugees, and along with their portable possessions and need for permanent public assistance, they brought a dramatic increase in violent crime and murder to Houston. That is a much better comparison given geographical latitude than the one you use with M/StP. Lovely city, by the way, during the summer, Minneapolis, is. 

You may for many reasons disagree with the death penalty, many people do on moral grounds. But, to suggest that an executed murderer will not murder again is just Alice in Wonderland. When they die, they cease being a threat to the community.

 Do we need to revisit that proud moment in American liberalism : Willy Horton? The early release of convicted murdered Willy Horton who decided that murder and rape was so much fun it was worth repeating,  after the charming Gov Dukakis released him. As Gomer Pyle said, surprise, surprise surprise ! And to suggest that some potential murderers will not be dissuaded from murder by a death penalty that is swiftly and surely applied also defies human nature. The problem, like most of the problems in the crime and punishment scene, are the liberals in public policy venues who prevent the swift and sure application of the death penalty. Get liberals out of the way, and the murder rate will plummet, along with taxes.