Author Topic: Do You Support The Death Penalty?  (Read 73909 times)

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,193
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2007, 06:40:10 pm »
Interestingly, all these points are used frequently by anti-abortion proponents. I wonder if the strong feelings here against capital punishment also align behind the pro-life people?

Not for me they don't. Because the central issue in abortion is not whether it's OK to kill a person, it's whether an unborn fetus constitutes a person.

(Guess you figured the thread was getting dull and it was time to liven things up with a little controversy, hunh?  ;) ;D)


Offline loneleeb3

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Posting Vacation
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *
  • Posts: 4,970
  • I swear.............
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2007, 06:43:17 pm »
Not for me they don't. Because the central issue in abortion is not whether it's OK to kill a person, it's whether an unborn fetus constitutes a person.

(Guess you figured the thread was getting dull and it was time to liven things up with a little controversy, hunh?  ;) ;D)



Oh what the heck.
I'll just add to the malestrom!
I am Pro-Life in terms of Abortion.
I see no reason to kill an innocent child for the sake of convienience! :)
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,228
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2007, 06:57:00 pm »
Interestingly, all these points are used frequently by anti-abortion proponents. I wonder if the strong feelings here against capital punishment also align behind the pro-life people?

I thought it was the other way around, in the US at least, though I have no statistics immediately at hand to prove it.  I.e. that those strongly in favor of the death penalty by and large are equally strongly and vehemently opposed to women's access to abortion. Personally I think that this view on abortion many a time may have more to do with the wish to limit and control women and women's sexuality than with any concern for preserving human lives and with respecting the inviolability of human life on general principle. Clamoring simultaneously for the death penalty and against women's access to abortion points in that direction.

However I do agree that sentiments and arguments along the lines of my view on the death penalty may be entirely and sincerely relevant for someone who is opposed to abortion.

Perhaps there should be a separate poll on the views on abortion?

Offline Shasta542

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,999
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2007, 07:05:03 pm »
Oh what the heck.
I'll just add to the malestrom!
I am Pro-Life in terms of Abortion.
I see no reason to kill an innocent child for the sake of convienience! :)

Ditto.
"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Offline ifyoucantfixit

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,049
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2007, 07:07:03 pm »


        Well I feel that you Scott are speaking one thing and those of us that disagree with you are speaking another..You are speaking of a Utopian civilization..where we all were so advanced, that we didnt feel the
base responses..We would never kill those who sought to kill us..We would never punish people by severity
of death.  That is all well and good and high minded.  However we dont live in that world..We live in this one.
The world of sadists and masochists and evil killers...They are a group that are unreachable and unredeemable.
Why should we then be forced to" keep" them alive after they commit these heinous crimes against often the
weakest among us...I dont agree with you, and never will..they need to go..they have as sioux said forfeited the
right to be a member of society..I guess I am not so perfect and pure a person as could say they
didnt deserve it because it would make society an equal of him....I disagree...the same as if a rabid dog came into
my yard, it is incurable, and i would have to do away with it....  Its a simple matter of protection....



     Beautiful mind

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,193
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2007, 07:32:08 pm »
I thought it was the other way around, in the US at least, though I have no statistics immediately at hand to prove it.  I.e. that those strongly in favor of the death penalty by and large are equally strongly and vehemently opposed to women's access to abortion. Personally I think that this view on abortion many a time may have more to do with the wish to limit and control women and women's sexuality than with any concern for preserving human lives and with respecting the inviolability of human life on general principle. Clamoring simultaneously for the death penalty and against women's access to abortion points in that direction.

However I do agree that sentiments and arguments along the lines of my view on the death penalty may be entirely and sincerely relevant for someone who is opposed to abortion.

Perhaps there should be a separate poll on the views on abortion?

Well, it's interesting to discuss them together, because you're right, Americans who favor the death penalty tend to oppose legalized abortion (and vise versa).

I think that sometimes both views are sincere and noncontradictory. People think the death penalty is the best way to deal with heinous criminals, and they also think abortion is murder. Just as I don't see any contradiction in my own reverse viewpoints. (I'll admit, though, that I'm less pro-choice than I am anti-death penalty -- I can understand, though not fully support, arguments like Lee's, that abortion can be seen as killing for the sake of convenience.)

I don't see opposition to abortion as necessarily a desire to control women's sexuality. I do sometimes see it as the equivalent of a religion one is raised in and therefore accepts as reality. I think a lot of politics is like that -- in America and probably elsewhere, too. You are raised to think a certain way, to identify yourself as a certain kind of person, and that goes along with a set of beliefs that you accept as your own. I'm not saying this is how everybody develops their opinions, but I think it happens a lot.


Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,375
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2007, 07:49:42 pm »
I see no reason to kill an innocent child for the sake of convienience! :)

I don't even really know what this means. 

I don't think that the decision to have an abortion has anything to do with convenience.  It's a gut-wrenching decision based on complicated factors.  Bearing an unwanted child is no small thing to ask of a woman... pregnancy and childbirth are potentially life-threatening processes that can and sometimes do ruin a woman's life on numerous levels.

To me the central question in the abortion issue is who has the right to control a woman's body.  And I think the only humane answer is the woman herself.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,975
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #77 on: October 19, 2007, 07:50:56 pm »
I thought it was the other way around, in the US at least, though I have no statistics immediately at hand to prove it.  I.e. that those strongly in favor of the death penalty by and large are equally strongly and vehemently opposed to women's access to abortion. Personally I think that this view on abortion many a time may have more to do with the wish to limit and control women and women's sexuality than with any concern for preserving human lives and with respecting the inviolability of human life on general principle. Clamoring simultaneously for the death penalty and against women's access to abortion points in that direction.

However I do agree that sentiments and arguments along the lines of my view on the death penalty may be entirely and sincerely relevant for someone who is opposed to abortion.

Perhaps there should be a separate poll on the views on abortion?


If I'm correct you're saying that people like me who are in favor of the death penalty for a horrible crime, say for instance when someone rapes a baby, killing him or her, that I'm wrong to have a pro choice opinion on abortion?  And that, although I think abortion is murder for my own personal reasons, I still agree in a woman's right to choose.. Is saying what?  Its saying I have different views on different issues.

I realize it seems a bit contradictory.  A woman deserves  the right to choose what she does to her body.  Although i hold back no punches in the case of partial birth abortion..Thats when a woman say 5 or 6 months along even 4 months along chooses to "abort" her child is actually induced labor, and then once the baby is born alive, the baby's brains are sucked out of its head.  yes once its born alive and a child.

I agree with the death penalty..  especially when it comes to crimes against children.   I stand firm on that.  Sorry to whoever, but the can of worms has been opened and its messy one.

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,228
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2007, 08:06:22 pm »
I don't think that the decision to have an abortion has anything to do with convenience.  It's a gut-wrenching decision based on complicated factors.  Bearing an unwanted child is no small thing to ask of a woman... it's a potentially life-threatening process that could ruin a woman's life on numerous levels.

To me the central issue in the abortion issue is who has the right to control a woman's body.  And I think the only humane answer is the woman herself.

You speak for me in this.

And the fetus IMO is part of a woman's body as long as it's not mature enough to survive outside of her body. The fetus does not in my view represent an individual human being at that stage, -  not one whose rights should take presedence over those of the mother. Ultimately it is the woman herself and noone else who has the right to decide what should happen to her own body. Abortion will never, never, ever be an "easy" decision....


Quote
If I'm correct you're saying that people like me who are in favor of the death penalty for a horrible crime, say for instance when someone who rapes a baby, killing him or her, tjat I'm wrong to have a pro choice opinion on abortion?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I find it difficult to reconcile the views of anyone who opposes legal abortion and state as their reason that they think it's wrong to take human lives,  -  but who still is strongly in favour of the death penalty which in fact represents the legalized taking of human lives.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,375
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2007, 08:07:36 pm »
Interestingly, all these points are used frequently by anti-abortion proponents. I wonder if the strong feelings here against capital punishment also align behind the pro-life people?

For the record, I'm very, very strongly pro-choice and I'm against the death penalty but it's less of a big issue for me.  The pro-choice issue is something I feel more strongly about.

I think the common denominator in those two opinions has to do with who gets to control a person's body... the individual or some outside entity such as the government. 

With the death penalty, the flaws in the legal/judicial system and the danger of potentially executing an innocent person give me serious pause.  Also, I think the idea of killing a criminal as punishment for murder sends a very mixed message about what exactly the legal/judicial system is saying about the act of killing.

On another note, I also think that life in prison may be more of a punishment for many abject criminals than the death penalty. 

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie