Author Topic: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?  (Read 73906 times)

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2007, 05:49:08 pm »
At least Alma Jr. is a decent person!

Not many are decent, not her mother that mcuh!

Hugs!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2007, 07:57:02 pm »
I agree Jeff. Junior is certainly not very happy at all about Cassie being in the pickup. That is clearly not what she expected or wanted her time with her father to consist of. As far as that scene goes, I don't think it would matter whether her father was gay or anything else. She was certainly not overjoyed with Cassie. She was also not at all happy that her father brought Cassie along.

Very true, Jack!  :D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2007, 08:09:24 pm »
At least Alma Jr. is a decent person!

Not many are decent, not her mother that mcuh!

Hugs!

I think you are being way to harsh on Alma......as Ennis said....."aint her fault".....

...and i'm not going to get into the morality of who was wrong, or who did what in their marriage....as a mother it seems to me that Alma was very decent......

How many women have their ex-husbands to Thanksgiving?......and it is obvious she has kept Ennis' secret from everyone.....I think that is very decent.....
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2007, 08:24:59 pm »
I think you are being way to harsh on Alma......as Ennis said....."aint her fault".....

...and i'm not going to get into the morality of who was wrong, or who did what in their marriage....as a mother it seems to me that Alma was very decent......

How many women have their ex-husbands to Thanksgiving?......and it is obvious she has kept Ennis' secret from everyone.....I think that is very decent.....

I agree with you, Katie. Though I don't think she was really that happy to have Ennis to Thanksgiving, I think she put her own preferences aside and did it for her daughters, so they could be with their daddy. Pretty decent of Monroe to go along with it, too.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2007, 08:26:08 pm »
What a condescending characterization!

I don't think that there is evidence one way or the other as to Alma's intellectual abilities or her chioice of reading materials  . Just because someone is not quoting
Proust or making up cute Haiku verse on screen, that doesn't make them a dummy.

Didn't say she was a dummy, just said she wasn't any smarter than the average teenage girl.  Certainly her actions don't hint at any 'deeper' intelligence.  She's just an average small town girl.

Still waters run deep.  Hmmmm.  Yes, but what does that mean exactly?  I never heard it used in describing someone's intelligence.  As for getting smarts from her father...Ennis is the one who thought telling his wife he was fishing for years but never bringing any home nor using his reel was a good cover story, don't forget.

Quote
She was a reticent young woman who would soon be finding her own way in life. She wanted her Daddy, whom she loved, to be at her wedding. She related to him in a way that convinced him to quit his job cowboying in the Tetons and attend her wedding. I'd say she was a very skillful young lady, even Jack couldn't always get Ennis to quit his job in order to see him!

 Give Alma, Jr a break!

Remember, Junior is the oldest daughter.  That means her sister is likely still a minor.

Ever heard of child support?

Ennis is not only living in poverty, it's possible Ennis is still paying child support for her sister, yet Junior has no problem with him quitting his job for her wedding.  That he's going to have to scramble to get another job in time for his next support payment/rent so he doesn't get behind doesn't bother/occur to her.

Skillful or just typical teenager - self-absorbed and oblivious?

Yes, I believe the dialogue meant he was going to have to quit his job to attend the wedding.  In ranching, like Ennis said when the heifers were calving, you have to be there.  Ranchers have to have a certain amount of manpower for a drive.  Being short-handed makes it more dangerous and more work for those left behind.  So basically they would replace Ennis and then he'd have no place in the drive after the wedding.  It isn't a 9-5 job with days off for weddings.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 12:54:00 pm by delalluvia »

Offline jstephens9

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2007, 08:54:47 pm »
Yes, I believe the dialogue meant he was going to have to quit his job to attend the wedding.  In ranching, like Ennis said when the heifers were calving, you have to be there.  They have to have certain amount of manpower for a drive.  Being short-handed makes it more dangerous and more work for those left behind.  So basically they would replace him and then he'd have no place in the drive after the wedding.  It isn't a 9-5 job with days off for weddings.

Remember though, Ennis at first says he cannot go to the wedding because of work, then he hesitates and in my opinion thinks about Jack and perhaps loosing Jack because he did put the work ahead of Jack. As others have said, I think this is a time when Ennis does realize the importance of those that you love. I think that is what he thinks about when he tells Junior that he will be at the wedding. Yes, he will suffer financially for going, but at this point I believe he discovers that it will be worth it to be there for his daughter. He will find another job. He may not have another chance to be with his daughter at this special time for her.

Offline jstephens9

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2007, 08:56:23 pm »
I think you are being way to harsh on Alma......as Ennis said....."aint her fault".....

...and i'm not going to get into the morality of who was wrong, or who did what in their marriage....as a mother it seems to me that Alma was very decent......

How many women have their ex-husbands to Thanksgiving?......and it is obvious she has kept Ennis' secret from everyone.....I think that is very decent.....

I also agree Katie. I just don't find Alma to be that bad of a person. I'm not sure why people are seeing her as that. Like someone else said, Ennis told Jack that it wasn't Alma's fault and it wasn't in my opinion.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2007, 09:02:13 pm »
Remember though, Ennis at first says he cannot go to the wedding because of work, then he hesitates and in my opinion thinks about Jack and perhaps loosing Jack because he did put the work ahead of Jack. As others have said, I think this is a time when Ennis does realize the importance of those that you love. I think that is what he thinks about when he tells Junior that he will be at the wedding. Yes, he will suffer financially for going, but at this point I believe he discovers that it will be worth it to be there for his daughter. He will find another job. He may not have another chance to be with his daughter at this special time for her.

I agree that's what that scene was meant to portray.  Ennis is a grown man and he makes his own decisions.

But remember, Ennis - both story and movie - is never shown to be a very good father.  He had an at-home wife and two young kids to support back in 'them days' when he 'just quit those jobs'.  So here is a mixed example.  A good father - being there for his daughter's wedding - but jeopardizing his youngest child's support payment.

In a way, you can almost see Junior as the next Jack in Ennis life.  Wanting him to be with her for whatever reason - and if he just quits his jobs to do it - that's OK with her, no matter the problems that causes for Ennis or anyone else in his life.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2007, 09:07:28 pm »
From the opening passage from Annie Proulx’s book “Brokeback Mountain.”
   
Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.


I quote this to make a few points: 
1) Ranch work comes and goes.
2) Family is all Ennis is left with in the end.

I could see Junior being "self-absorbed and oblivious" if she asked Ennis for any money for the wedding, or asked him to help out as she did the rest of the family.  But she didn't; she'd made all the arrangements, gotten others to contribute where they could (Monroe + Jenny) — then come by to invite her father.

Can you picture what it would be like if Ennis hadn't been invited?
"He needs to make money for child support; I won't bother him."  <— To me that's the more insulting, treating him like a human cash machine rather than a family member with feelings.
So he ends up in his trailer all alone, with no supportive or caring family members? No one to lean on (emotionally or financially) in his later years? He's earned better than that, and Alma Junior knows it.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2007, 09:12:34 pm »
From the opening passage from Annie Proulx’s book “Brokeback Mountain.”
   
Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.


I quote this to make a few points: 
1) Ranch work comes and goes.
2) Family is all Ennis is left with in the end.

I could see Junior being "self-absorbed and oblivious" if she asked Ennis for any money for the wedding, or asked him to help out as she did the rest of the family.  But she didn't; she'd made all the arrangements, gotten others to contribute where they could (Monroe + Jenny) — then come by to invite her father.

Can you picture what it would be like if Ennis hadn't been invited?
"He needs to make money for child support; I won't bother him."  <— To me that's the more insulting, treating him like a human cash machine rather than a family member with feelings.
So he ends up in his trailer all alone, with no supportive or caring family members? No one to lean on (emotionally or financially) in his later years? He's earned better than that, and Alma Junior knows it.

It doesn't have to be so black and white.  She most certainly can invite him, most of us invite people to special events we know have no chance of showing up, for whatever reason:

"Daddy I'm getting married.  Can you come give me away?"

"Oh honey, I gotta drive down in the Tetons."

"OK, well, when you're back why don't you come by and see our new place and the pictures of the wedding?"

That would seem to be more of a realistic dialogue and a compromise both would find acceptable given each other's circumstances.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 12:39:47 am by delalluvia »