TOTW 16/07: Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

[Penthesilea]

Howdy BetterMostians,

after having a Brokeback Thanksgiving quiz last week, we're back to our regular TOTW today.
This week's topic involves a bit of conjecture, since we only have few indication for one opinion or the other. But even though there's no definite evidence about it, we can still have our own thoughts on it, can't we?

And we want to hear your take on it, so share it with us. 

Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

[Marge_Innavera]

IMO she'd started to wonder about it around the time (film version) that she met Cassie.  Alma Jr would have remembered meeting Jack that one time, and both girls would have noticed their father acting differently after Jack drove away. Even his posture and facial expression would have caught their attention.

Also, we don't know what happened at Alma and Monroe's house after Ennis storms out that Thanksgiving, but Alma was clearly upset enough to make remarks the girls would have wondered about. And if she told Monroe any details about the fight, would the girls not try to eavesdrop?  What they know at that point is that their father joined Alma in the kitchen right after dinner and just a few minutes later he abruptly leaves and she's yelling and smashing something.

Besides, Alma Junior and Jenny are not only from a very different generation but they also probably have much more contact with the larger world than Ennis did growing up.  By the early 1980s, homosexuality was no longer the taboo subject it had been when Ennis and Jack were the same age, so it would be surprising if they didn't at least speculate about it.

[tampatalon]

I thought that in the film that Alma Junior may have known or suspected that her father was gay by the remark to Cassie, that she was "good enough". I thought Junior's statement was opened ended because Cassie was good enough, but Jack would haven been better?

TampaTalon^">

[jstephens9]

I think Alma Jr. may have suspected that her father was involved with Jack both by his actions when Jack appeared after the divorce and by the talk I'm sure that went on between Alma and Monroe. As Marge said, I think Alma Jr. and Jenny would have known more about the existence of gay people, but I'm not so sure that the lifestyle would have been accepted at all in Wyoming. It is still not what I would call accepted in Wyoming today. For some reason I get this feeling that Alma Jr. would have referred to Jack as Ennis' friend. For whatever reason, in areas where there is acknowledgement of someone being gay, it becomes more proper to refer to someone as a friend rather than as a gay person. The word "gay" brings up all kinds of bad connotations in more rural locations from what I have seen. I do think that Alma Jr. would definitely accept Ennis if she did know he was gay. It was very obvious that she deeply and truly loved her father. I think she was quite proud of him being her father. As far as Cassie goes I do think there are indications there that Alma Jr. knows "she" would not really be what Ennis wants. I also got the feeling that Alma Jr. didn't particularly like Cassie and I wholeheartedly would agree with her on that. Yes as Steve says I think Alma Jr. would definitely think Jack would be much better.

[southendmd]

In addition to witnessing the post-divorce Jack visit, and the Thanksgiving debacle, the way Junior says to Cassie, "Maybe he's not the marrying kind..." made me think she knew about Ennis.

[Jeff Wrangler]

In addition to witnessing the post-divorce Jack visit, and the Thanksgiving debacle, the way Junior says to Cassie, "Maybe he's not the marrying kind..." made me think she knew about Ennis.

I've always thought that was kind of a strange remark. After all, he married her mother and presumably would have stayed married. It was Alma, Sr., who divorced Ennis, not the other way 'round.

[tampatalon]

In the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner,and please excuse my paraphrase, did Alma not say about finding another woman "that me and the girls worry about you." Could this indicate that the town folk of Riverton might be running their gators that Ennis is different. The girls would surely have heard this town gossip and that confirms Ennis's preference?

TampaTalon^">

[Jeff Wrangler]

In the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner,and please excuse my paraphrase, did Alma not say about finding another woman "that me and the girls worry about you." Could this indicate that the town folk of Riverton might be running their gators that Ennis is different. The girls would surely have heard this town gossip and that confirms Ennis's preference?

TampaTalon^">

Close enough. She says he ought to get married again, and that she and the girls worry about him being alone so much.

I've never quite known what to make of Alma's claiming that she worried about her ex-husband.

[MaineWriter]

Close enough. She says he ought to get married again, and that she and the girls worry about him being alone so much.

I've never quite known what to make of Alma's claiming that she worried about her ex-husband.

I think she still loved him. I think she divorced him because he wasn't going to do the two things a husband should do (in her mind): 1) make babies and 2) support them. I don't think she divorced him because she fell out of love with him.

L

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think she still loved him. I think she divorced him because he wasn't going to do the two things a husband should do (in her mind): 1) make babies and 2) support them. I don't think she divorced him because she fell out of love with him.

L

I agree with you, Leslie. I don't think she stopped loving him.

I'm finding myself wondering, though, if the remark about him getting married again wasn't a bit of needling. She knew darn well what she was going to bring up, that Ennis didn't go up there with "Jack Nasty" to fish, so I wouldn't be surprised if she also pretty well figured out that Ennis would never marry again.

But this discussion is supposed to be about Alma, Jr. 

[Katie77]

Wow, what an intriguing question this is for me......ive done a lot of soul searching here....not only thinking, "did Alma Jnr know Ennis was gay"...but..."did I know MY dad was gay".....

To put you in the picture, I will briefly tell you my story....will try to keep it short so as not to bore you.....

My father separated from my mother when i was seven (in 1958) to live with his male partner....they lived together for the following 14years....i lived with my mother, but had continual and constant contact and visits with my dad and his partner....back in those days...late fifties, and thru the sixties, homosexuality was illegal here in Australia, so my dad and his partner just told everyone that they were brothers, and if I ever talked about Allen (dad's partner) i too, just referred to him as "dads brother".....(funnily enough, i never referred to him as "my uncle", he was "dads brother").....i loved him dearly as I was growing up, thought of him like a big brother, he was only ten years older  than me, spoilt me and my sister, took us to the pictures, the beach, bought us records (musical ones), we had a great relationship.....they also came to my mums home for christmas, birthdays etc, so the family unit, although unusual, especially for those times, was still a happy and comfortable family unit.

I have been sitting here trying to think back, as to whether I KNEW my father was gay......(we used the term "homosexual" then)......

I guess I knew that Dad and Allen had a "partnership" of some sorts, knew that they were a "couple".....but as it is with most children, no matter what era they grow up in, no matter who their mother or father are living with....kids dont relate or even think too much about, the sexual side of their parents relationship......I was no different.....

I guess, because of the era, I was not subjected to too many questions or inuendos from my friends....when they asked who Allen was, I just said "Dad's brother", and that was accepted, no more questions asked....there was no embarrassment or any feeling of "hiding" anything.

Ironically, I was more embarrassed about the fact that my mum and dad were divorced, than anything else, because in those days, not many, if any, of my friends had parents who were divorced....(how times have changed)...

When I was 16, and had just met my future husband, my dad, actually sat me down and spoke the words, saying....."you probably all ready have guessed it, but I need to tell you, Allen and I are homosexual"....

You know how it is, when your parents sit you down to tell you about the "birds and the bees"?....you all ready know, and its a bit embarrassing actually hearing them say it....??.....well, thats what it was like.....he told me,I was a bit embarrassed.... then we just went on the way we had always gone on......easy as that...

In the following years, my Dad and Allen's life changed, as did my own....things happened that I did not understand, Allen left Dad....a few years later,Dad committed suicide...some very tragic times......and many years, of pushing a lot of things out of my mind....

Seeing the movie, finally made me see and realize the emotional side of my father's relationship.....finally made me understand the kind of love he had for Allen, and the pressures and social discrimination that they both endured to have that relationship.....knowing my Dad, when I look back now, he must have been so happy that me and my sister, just accepted them as who they were, we loved them both and knew they loved us.....what else mattered.....

As I watched the movie, I probably saw for the first time, through Alma Jnr's eyes, what I myself had seen all those years ago.....my Dad, too, went off to live alone in a caravan (trailor), just like Ennis did....like her, I sat on the bed, and looked at my lonely Dad, and knew that he had lost the love of his life, knew that he loved me, but mourned the losss of the love that he could have no more......

I dont know if she thought her dad was "gay"....but she did know he had loved someone, and I assume she knew it was Jack who had been the one, he had loved and lost......

[delalluvia]

IMO, no, she did not.

I could see it if Junior lived in a big city or if she was really sophisticated and in modern times, attached to the internet and exposed to TV shows that showcased or co-starred gay men.

She had no exposure to any of that.

She is kept very sheltered and she lives in a very small world in small town Wyoming.  She most certainly is dragged to church by her mother.  While Alma may at some point discuss sex with her daughters, she will most certainly not do it when her daughters are young.  And when the time comes for the 'talk', due to her bitterness about Ennis affairs, she certainly won't bring up homosexuality.  She thinks it's disgusting and nasty.  Why would she discuss it with her daughter?  Junior doesn't have a boyfriend at the time she asks to move in with Ennis, so I'm thinking she has no experience/knowledge about heterosexual sex much less the magnitude of variations thereof.

So, IMO, no, she does not.

[Brokeback_Dev]

Thank You for sharing those thoughts and memories with us Sue. 

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Katie77, thanks so much for telling us your story here.


As to Alma Jr.... yes, I do think that by the end of the movie she knows or at least strongly suspects.  The way Alma Jr. is portrayed in the film... she seems really, really introspective and probably very observant and intelligent (at least these are the vibes she gives off for me).  And, of course, I think we're supposed to think that her quiet ways are very much like her Daddy's... and that they're probably very much tuned-in to one another (this wouldn't necessarily mean that she would be able to intuit her father's secret without the supporting evidence already cited in earlier posts). 

I think the exchange with Cassie about "not the marrying kind" is our strongest clue that Alma Jr. may know.

Maybe how a viewer answers this question is also a test much like the "how did Jack die" test.  If you completely or at least strongly believe that Alma Jr. knows... then the last conversation between Ennis and Alma Jr. in the trailer could take on very, very deep meaning.  If Alma Jr. understands the subtext of the discussion of "love".... then this scene would be viewed very differently from a viewer who really doesn't believe that Alma Jr. knows.

[louisev]

I say she knew.  That I believe is what that whole Alma Jr and Cassie scene was about - to show that a) Junior knew and knew that her mother hated him for it and that b) it was okay with her but she didn't want him making the mistake of marrying Cassie as another coverup and so did what she could, subtly, to chase Cassie off.

[Brokeback_Dev]

Wow, all these responses are all so interesting, and different.  I'm not sure whether or not I believe Alma Jr. knew Ennis was gay. At least not as early as the bar scene when she said to Cassie "maybe he's not the marrying kind."   I think if anything she might have known when she came to Ennis' trailer, way out in the middle of nowhere, to let him know that she was getting married.  It was to be a June wedding and she was hopin he would be there.   By that time he was so all alone.  He had nothing.  His life was dispair and he may have found confidence in his little girl to share his pain with about loosing his Jack.  He loved her so much, and she was the only one he truly trusted with his heart.

[pnwDUDE]

Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

Yes.

And Katie, the story of your father is beautiful then painfully tragic. I'm glad your father had some good years and he's very lucky to have the family who opened their arms to him and his partner despite the struggle homosexuals endured during those years.
When I left my wife and met the man of my dreams, we too felt like we had to live as brothers to be accepted in the rural community we live, and it was 1990. Turns out, it was all in our head. Like your dad, we have a very loving and accepting family (all red neck and most to the right of issues) and a tolerant and accepting group of people (all straight) we live around and interact with on an almost daily basis.
Thanks again for your story.

Brad

[jstephens9]

Sue,

I am so glad that your shared this period of time in your life with us. I think people telling us things like this open the world up for so many of us. Hearing what someone has been through, how they reacted to it, what their thoughts were, etc. are more valuable than any book, any class, or anything else we can ever read. I have always been a firm believer in the idea that the only way you truly can feel or know something is to live it which you truly did. I work in a university setting where there are so many teachers (professors) teaching about things that they have only read about that were written by scholars who probably never lived it either. I never will forget my sociology classes where I read about homosexuality and was taught about it. It was so obvious that these people had absolutely no idea what it was really like. They had never lived it. Another example of this is that I have several very good friends who are fireman. I have heard from each of them how people will come and teach them about firefighting. And guess what, these people who are teaching have never even been in a burning building. The fireman resent it and I can completely understand why. I know sometimes I get long winded, but you sharing this REAL story of your life and how you saw your dad and his partner means you lived it, you saw it with your own eyes, and felt it with your own senses.

Jack

[ProwlAmongUs]

Yes, I think she knew her dad was gay, but I don't think she was able to put a label to it in her mind. I believe out of all the characters except Jack, she understood Ennis better than anyone. Her quiet understanding and love for her father is apparent to the point of being protective of him when Cassie enters his life. She was progressive in her thinking for her age and for the time period, but again, was probably ignorant of the terms and what those terms entailed. It would be normal for someone her age at that time and place to "see the trees, but be confused by the forest." Hey, when I was her age, I still thought "gay" meant something fun and exciting, and that was a few years after 1963, although not many.

[Katie77]

Thank you all very much for your comments on my post.....

To tell you the truth, I am still soul searching.....did I know??...did Alma Jnr know?

I guess the bottom line is, she DID NOT know, but she obviously knew threre was something about her dad that she could not quite put her finger on, but knew whatever it was it had a hold on him and was responsible for the sadness and loneliness he was feeling....

Sad to say, Alma Jnr, probably would not have realized the full true story about her dad, until after he had gone, and when she would have found the shirts hanging in his closet....then, it would become clear to her and she would finally understand.

[LauraGigs]

Great posts Katie.

I have to agree with Del; I don't think Jr had the background to just see right through her dad's facade.

It would be normal for someone her age at that time and place to "see the trees, but be confused by the forest."

Exactly. All the abstract clues are there, but it still requires a huge leap for her to see past some big facts: Daddy is macho, he's been married, and he's her father — her model for what manhood and the male role in a heterosexual relationship is.

Some of the clues involve Ennis' excitement around fishing-trip time — and comparative indifference to Alma and Cassie. But then again, that's textbook behavior for many straight men of the time: emotionally buttoned-down at home, but stoked to escape all the estrogen and down a few beers with the buds.

Another point is that the film seems pretty tone-deaf on child development. Ennis talks of "taking the girls into town for an ice cream" when — at age 1 1/2 and 6 months — they couldn't possibly appreciate it. Ditto on the Fireworks Scene ("got 2 little girls here" — they're going to understand the bikers and be corrupted?) And why would Bobby need a tutor at the age of 2 or 3?
Ang's direction (in the post-divorce and Cassie scenes) implies that she may be on to her dad. But at age 12 and 15, she just wouldn't be.

I think Junior watching Ennis & Cassie dance echoes Lureen at the Childress dance: she knows something's not right, but has yet to put it all together.

[Brown Eyes]

Laura,

You're absolutely right that BBM in general seems to treat the behavior of children at various ages very strangely.  I wonder if this has to do with the larger problem of the overall timeline (which itself is a little goofy... as we know).

[MaineWriter]

Laura,

You're absolutely right that BBM in general seems to treat the behavior of children at various ages very strangely.  I wonder if this has to do with the larger problem of the overall timeline (which itself is a little goofy... as we know).

As much as we all love the movie, I think they were a little sloppy on a few details, like this child development issue. It irks me when Alma, Jr. mentions her wedding date ("June 5 at the Methodist Church") because it was a Wednesday.

Everyone's comments about Alma and her dad are great. I keep thinking about it and still haven't made up my mind!

L

[brokeplex]

Alma, Jr. may have suspected that there was something "special" about her father's "friendship" with Jack. Perhaps Alma might at some point in time "spill the beans". I would hope that over time Alma,Jr. and her dad would have a candid talk. I know that in my own life it surprised me that my sister understood about my "secret" relationship with Chris. Maybe Ennis would be surprised at the number of people who understood and cared.

[Jeff Wrangler]

As much as we all love the movie, I think they were a little sloppy on a few details, like this child development issue. It irks me when Alma, Jr. mentions her wedding date ("June 5 at the Methodist Church") because it was a Wednesday.

Tuesday, Honey (June 5, 1984)--as you showed me.   

[MaineWriter]

Tuesday, Honey (June 5, 1984)--as you showed me.   

I was working from memory...because I knew I figured it out for you! Tuesday, Wednesday...it is not a marryin at the church kind a day! LOL

L

[Marge_Innavera]

In the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner,and please excuse my paraphrase, did Alma not say about finding another woman "that me and the girls worry about you." Could this indicate that the town folk of Riverton might be running their gators that Ennis is different. The girls would surely have heard this town gossip and that confirms Ennis's preference?

I don't think they would have been speculating to any extent that was noticeable. After all, even now so many people think of gay men in terms of stereotypes that Ennis doesn't fit. Jack has only been in Riverton twice, and surely if anyone other than Alma saw them kissing that first time Ennis would have known about that by now. As for his not marrying again, this is a guy who's known to be very taciturn and something of a loner, so his not remarrying wouldn't necessarily surprise anybody.

IMO, Alma is partly trolling for information and partly referring to specific conversations she's had with the girls about their dad being alone so much. It's something that might have come up shortly after he was invited to Thanksgiving dinner; and maybe Alma had even promised the girls she'd ask him about it if she could. She wouldn't necessarily have to have only one motive.

[Marge_Innavera]

Yes, I think she knew her dad was gay, but I don't think she was able to put a label to it in her mind. I believe out of all the characters except Jack, she understood Ennis better than anyone. Her quiet understanding and love for her father is apparent to the point of being protective of him when Cassie enters his life. She was progressive in her thinking for her age and for the time period, but again, was probably ignorant of the terms and what those terms entailed. It would be normal for someone her age at that time and place to "see the trees, but be confused by the forest." Hey, when I was her age, I still thought "gay" meant something fun and exciting, and that was a few years after 1963, although not many.

Well, I started  high school (1963) in an era when homosexuality was completely invisible to most straight people. But I'm not sure that even a girl in a small town (small city?) in the late 1970s-early 1980s would have that little information. The power of television to blur certain geographical and cultural edges can't be underestimated.

And I do think Alma Sr.'s religiosity is based on some rather sketchy assumptions. She only refers to church twice, and both times she's referring to a social function -- the church picnic and the church social -- not a religious service. It isn't uncommon in isolated areas for the church to be a center of social events.

June 5th on a Tuesday in '84? I'll have to do some editing, it seems.

[Jeff Wrangler]

June 5th on a Tuesday in '84? I'll have to do some editing, it seems.

With thanks to Leslie, who told me about this site when I was writing an AU fanfic about Alma, Jr.,'s wedding:

http://www.timeanddate.com

This will show that June 5, 1984, was a Tuesday. 

And FWIW, June 24, 1967, was a Saturday, and September 24, 1967, was a Sunday.

[jstephens9]

The first time I really knew anything about gay people or what the term was again when my sister lived in Atlanta while I was growing up. My parents and I went to Atlanta to see her. I picked up some king of "underground hippie alternative" newspaper called "The Great Speckled Bird" although I believe most people simply called it "The Bird." It had an article or pictures or something of all these "gay" people who were going to have a parade and I wanted to go to it. Of course, I knew that it was not something I should tell my parents about. I remember wishing I could figure out some way to tell the "gay" people to come and get me cause I wanted to be in their parade  I also found out that year what those women were doing standing around and on the stationary trolley car in Underground Atlanta  Well, kind of, my brother in law told me they were working. I didn't really question what line of work they were in  Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, I imagine Alma Jr. would have been growing up in the 70s and 80s as far as when she would have first started getting an idea of the world. I can't really imagine her having much of a concept of the word gay or how her father would have fit into it especially being that she was from Riverton, Wyoming. And it is questionable whether or not she had travelled anywhere.

[Marge_Innavera]

I imagine Alma Jr. would have been growing up in the 70s and 80s as far as when she would have first started getting an idea of the world. I can't really imagine her having much of a concept of the word gay or how her father would have fit into it especially being that she was from Riverton, Wyoming. And it is questionable whether or not she had travelled anywhere.

If you were reading the Bird, that must have been Hotlanta in the 1970s.   

She probably hadn't done any travelling other than Wyoming communities in the same region, such as Caspar. But I find it difficult to impossible to believe that a 19-year-old in the early 1980s would never have watched television and never heard the word "gay" used in a sexual orientation context on TV at least.  Riverton might not be a metropolis, but it isn't an Amish community or a monastary.  From your account, it sounds like you at least knew what the word 'gay' meant by the 1970s and I expect Alma Jr did too, even if she didn't know many details.

As the Mencken character in Inherit the Wind put it, "the virginal small-towner has been had by Marconi [radio, in the 1920s; mass media in general ] and Montgomery Ward [the spread of the consumer culture]."  And this was a comment from a playwright 50 years ago. 

I'm not suggesting that was very sophisticated or that she understood much about her dad's life but the days when one could assume that a small town girl was all that unaware of changes in the larger culture were long over by the early 1980s.

[Artiste]

Alma jr. was intelligent and must have known that her father was bi or gay?

She did think about family life!! That is what makes me think that she knew that Ennis, her father was a bi or gay man!!

You think so too, maybe?

Hugs!

[delalluvia]

I think we're giving Junior a bit too much credit.  I didn't see anything particularly "intelligent" about her.

She acts like a typical teenager from a small town.

She wants to leave her mother/stepfather's home because - gasp! - they're too strict!

She thinks marrying a roughneck at the age of 19 is a good idea with a good future.

She has a poverty-stricken father ("Daddy you need to buy some more furniture").  And seeing how meanly he is living is suddenly happy that he's going to quit his sole means of income job just for her!

Ouch!  How self-absorbed is that?

No, Junior isn't the sharpest pencil in the box.

Yes, I imagine there were shows from Hollywood on TV about gays by the late 70s early 80's, but I'm sure Alma and her husband did not allow them to be aired in their home.  And Junior most certainly lived at home.

And honestly, does Ennis act like any of the gay stereotypes that might have been seen on TV way back when?

As for magazines and books and newspapers...let's just say Junior doesn't look like the reading type. 

[LauraGigs]

...I find it difficult to impossible to believe that a 19-year-old in the early 1980s would never have watched television and never heard the word "gay" used in a sexual orientation context on TV at least.

I definitely agree there, Marge.  But there's a huge difference between hearing gayness mentioned on the TV or by giggly highschoolers, and making the leap that your big, macho, stoic father has been faking straight since before you were born, you know?

[Artiste]

It is obvious that Alma Jr. knew that her father was a bi or gay man!

She did see her father gotten hug by Jack, strongly, and heard them talk.... surely!

She has an eye, too, it seems to me? To you?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

I think we're giving Junior a bit too much credit.  I didn't see anything particularly "intelligent" about her.

She acts like a typical teenager from a small town.

She wants to leave her mother/stepfather's home because - gasp! - they're too strict!

She thinks marrying a roughneck at the age of 19 is a good idea with a good future.

She has a poverty-stricken father ("Daddy you need to buy some more furniture").  And seeing how meanly he is living is suddenly happy that he's going to quit his sole means of income job just for her!

Ouch!  How self-absorbed is that?

No, Junior isn't the sharpest pencil in the box.

Yes, I imagine there were shows from Hollywood on TV about gays by the late 70s early 80's, but I'm sure Alma and her husband did not allow them to be aired in their home.  And Junior most certainly lived at home.

And honestly, does Ennis act like any of the gay stereotypes that might have been seen on TV way back when?

As for magazines and books and newspapers...let's just say Junior doesn't look like the reading type. 

What a condescending characterization!

I don't think that there is evidence one way or the other as to Alma's intellectual abilities or her chioice of reading materials  . Just because someone is not quoting
Proust or making up cute Haiku verse on screen, that doesn't make them a dummy. She was a reticent young woman who would soon be finding her own way in life. She wanted her Daddy, whom she loved, to be at her wedding. She related to him in a way that convinced him to quit his job cowboying in the Tetons and attend her wedding. I'd say she was a very skillful young lady, even Jack couldn't always get Ennis to quit his job in order to see him!

 Give Alma, Jr a break!

[oilgun]

I definitely agree there, Marge.  But there's a huge difference between hearing gayness mentioned on the TV or by giggly highschoolers, and making the leap that your big, macho, stoic father has been faking straight since before you were born, you know?

I agree,  there isn't a chance in helll that she woul suspect her father to be gay.  Just because he had a close friendship with one other man is not enough of a clue.  A lot of straight men prefer the company of other men.

[Artiste]

Even if straight men like other men as friends, Alam Jr. saw that her father was bi or gay!

The clues seem to be there.

She must have thought that it was strange or OK for her dad to be with Jack as good friends! So, she had to have a thought about her father liking ONLY one man! She is not anti-gay like her mother!

Hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

I think with both Alma Jr. and Ennis we're supposed to perceive something along the lines of the old saying "still waters run deep."  My sense, is that the audience is meant to see both of them as very observant and smart in an introspective way (while neither is probably particularly well-educated in a formal/ official way).  I think we're also meant to see them as having some unspoken forms of communication between themselves (they way they're shown talking in Ennis's truck, etc.).  And, again, I think how an audience member views their modes of personal communication greatly impacts how the last scene of the movie is interpreted.

I do agree with the part of delalluvia's post suggesting that Junior's happiness at hearing that Ennis will quit his job in order to attend her wedding is a bit self-absorbed.  It honestly really is a lot to ask of a person who is impoverished.  It's not too much to hope/ expect that her own father would be at her wedding, of course.  But, the point here is that she's happy he's quiting a job to do this (that aspect of the situation seems a bit extreme).  Still, maybe she's been raised to expect Ennis to quit jobs at the drop of a hat (since he clearly did this a lot in preparation for meetings with Jack).

Her glee at her own new-found love and upcoming, sanctioned heterosexual union also comes across as hard to take (for me personally as a viewer) knowing what Ennis has had to struggle with in his relationship with Jack.  Of course, Junior, probably doesn't understand the full context of all of this... so I don't hold it against her.  But, I always think the moment when Ennis looks to the side and pauses a bit during the conversation and almost seems to tear up, probably has a lot to do with him contrasting his own situation with Jack to the circumstances now surrounding his 19 year old daughter at the beginning of her own relationship.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Do we really know that Ennis is "quitting" his job to go to the wedding?

I mean, sure, he could be, and perhaps we are supposed to assume that he is. We know that he's told Jack that when he was younger he quit jobs to go away with Jack, but maybe he quit those jobs not because he wanted to quit but because the ranch owner or foreman wouldn't let him take time off and then come back to work.

I'll admit I know next to nothing about the ranching industry today or in 1984, but it still strikes me as pretty heartless to tell somebody he can't take time off to attend his own daughter's wedding.

[LauraGigs]

Still, maybe she's been raised to expect Ennis to quit jobs at the drop of a hat (since he clearly did this a lot in preparation for meetings with Jack).

Great point, Amanda.

Yes, the script ("I think I’m supposed to be on a roundup up near the Tetons") implies that it's a summer gig, similar to the job on Brokeback. All the quitting he did through the years obviously didn't destroy his career as a ranch hand. Quitting (or taking time off) this one for her wedding wouldn't, either.

The whole point of that scene is that Ennis is making a fundamental change: he'll no longer let chances to be together with loved ones pass him by. In the sweeping tragedy of Brokeback Mountain, it's the sole moment of redemption.

[Brown Eyes]

Do we really know that Ennis is "quitting" his job to go to the wedding?

I mean, sure, he could be, and perhaps we are supposed to assume that he is. We know that he's told Jack that when he was younger he quit jobs to go away with Jack, but maybe he quit those jobs not because he wanted to quit but because the ranch owner or foreman wouldn't let him take time off and then come back to work.

I'll admit I know next to nothing about the ranching industry today or in 1984, but it still strikes me as pretty heartless to tell somebody he can't take time off to attend his own daughter's wedding.

I'd been assuming that when he said that they could "find themselves a new cowboy" that he was implying that he would quit the job.  But, maybe you're right.  Maybe he wouldn't need to quit the whole job.


Laura, I completely agree that this scene is meant to show that Ennis has changed and that he continues to make an effort to change.  Both with his decision to attend Junior's wedding and with his moment with the shirts and articulating the "Jack, I swear...".

I still find it quite frustrating that Ennis's big moment of change comes just in time to celebrate what seems to be a very conventional marriage at the Methodist church (even).  In some ways it makes it seem that the only conclusion to this type of story is to have Ennis re-absorbed into a conventional role of father of the bride.  The resolution for Ennis as a gay man (and the question of what will he do now... as a gay man) remains very unsettled and tragic.  I'm sure the ambiguity of what his own future and personal happiness hold in store is exactly the point.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I still find it quite frustrating that Ennis's big moment of change comes just in time to celebrate what seems to be a very conventional marriage at the Methodist church (even).  In some ways it makes it seem that the only conclusion to this type of story is to have Ennis re-absorbed into a conventional role of father of the bride.  The resolution for Ennis as a gay man (and the question of what will he do now... as a gay man) remains very unsettled and tragic.  I'm sure the ambiguity of what his own future and personal happiness hold in store is exactly the point.

You might add, Whether he will even do anything as a gay man. It might be that the resolution doesn't even have anything to do specifically with being gay (which is perhaps part of the universality of the appeal of Brokeback Mountain). The resolution may not have anything to do with "coming out," but rather with being available to those who love us, which is a message for anybody, gay or straight.

[Brown Eyes]

You might add, Whether he will even do anything as a gay man. It might be that the resolution doesn't even have anything to do specifically with being gay (which is perhaps part of the universality of the appeal of Brokeback Mountain). The resolution may not have anything to do with "coming out," but rather with being available to those who love us, which is a message for anybody, gay or straight.

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I agree and understand the point you're making. 

And at the same time, I still find the end enormously frustrating (personally).  I'm not really even critiquing BBM for presenting the ending in this way...  I'm just expressing my own, probably very personal reaction.  For me, personally as a gay viewer, I still find it difficult that a movie that focuses on a gay love story as its main theme concludes with a resolution that focuses on a conventional marriage.  I'm sure this frustration is part of the point.  And, I'm sure many viewers (gay, straight, bi-, etc.) will see this whole scene very differently depending on their own issues and personal viewpoints.

[jstephens9]

I don't think they would have been speculating to any extent that was noticeable. After all, even now so many people think of gay men in terms of stereotypes that Ennis doesn't fit. Jack has only been in Riverton twice, and surely if anyone other than Alma saw them kissing that first time Ennis would have known about that by now. As for his not marrying again, this is a guy who's known to be very taciturn and something of a loner, so his not remarrying wouldn't necessarily surprise anybody.

And to add to this, many people have this idea that if a man has been married, has kids, etc. then he is automatically straight. There is no inbetween as these people see it. I myself have heard people say that so and so couldn't be gay because after all they have a wife. On top of this as you mention Ennis definitely does not fit the stereotypes of a gay man as many people see it. Again, I have heard people say that so and so couldn't be gay cause they don't act "that way." Finally, as Marge also points out, cowboys have always been seen as loners so not getting married would not translate to being gay.

[Artiste]

Thanks Jeff, and thanks others too!!

Jeff, you say this: I'll admit I know next to nothing about the ranching industry today or in 1984, but it still strikes me as pretty heartless to tell somebody he can't take time off to attend his own daughter's wedding.


...

...

Alma Jr. was not heartless like her mother was, and accepted her father's life as a bi or gay man; so, she got that her father will go to her wedding! There is a strong difference to her and her mother... because she educates herself!

You think so too?

Hugs!


Edit by Penthesilea:

I deleted a part of this post which was a multiple post and additionally was completely off topic in this thread. You can read the deleted part here: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,15268.0.html

[jstephens9]

If you were reading the Bird, that must have been Hotlanta in the 1970s.   

She probably hadn't done any travelling other than Wyoming communities in the same region, such as Caspar. But I find it difficult to impossible to believe that a 19-year-old in the early 1980s would never have watched television and never heard the word "gay" used in a sexual orientation context on TV at least.  Riverton might not be a metropolis, but it isn't an Amish community or a monastary.  From your account, it sounds like you at least knew what the word 'gay' meant by the 1970s and I expect Alma Jr did too, even if she didn't know many details.

You do have a point there since I lived in a small city in the south and I had heard of the word. I didn't exactly know what it all meant, but I had a feeling it had something to do with me. And of course I was familiar with television and even then there were episodes of shows or movies that dealt with the subject. I remember a show called "Family" that had an episode where the son had a friend that came to visit who was gay. I loved that episode. I wish I knew where I could find it now since I would like to see it and see what I thought of it now. There was also a movie where this boy was visiting his father in San Francisco (I remember the cable cars  ). The father had a male lover and the boy was all upset. I'm not sure what the name of the movie was. And then of course there were the questionable music groups and singers such as Elton John, David Bowie, etc. So in thinking more about it I can see that Alma Jr. would have had to at least known of "gay" issues.

So you know of "The Bird?" At that point in time I considered Atlanta the biggest city in the world  And what is funny is that there are many people here that still consider Atlanta and Charlotte as the biggest cities in the world. Back then Charlotte was nowhere near as large as it is now. However, of course, neither are that big when you compare them to other places. Many people here don't do a lot of travel. Some have never left the county  In fact some from the outlying areas consider Asheville to be "the big city." I had culture shock the first time I visited my sister in Houston  I've come a long way since I can now visit and walk through New York City by myself 

[Jeff Wrangler]

Hi Jeff,

Yes, I agree and understand the point you're making. 

And at the same time, I still find the end enormously frustrating (personally).  I'm not really even critiquing BBM for presenting the ending in this way...  I'm just expressing my own, probably very personal reaction.  For me, personally as a gay viewer, I still find it difficult that a movie that focuses on a gay love story as its main theme concludes with a resolution that focuses on a conventional marriage.  I'm sure this frustration is part of the point.  And, I'm sure many viewers (gay, straight, bi-, etc.) will see this whole scene very differently depending on their own issues and personal viewpoints.

Well, we all do bring our own issues and viewpoints to this film, that's for sure. I see the point, but I'm afraid it really isn't an issue for me. I don't see Junior's wedding as the focus. I see the focus as Ennis is now making himself available to his daughter--something he didn't do in the scene in the pickup, after the date with Cassie, where Junior asked to come live with him. (BTW, I know I've written on this somewhere else, but for me, the whole point of the scene in the pickup is to set up the final scene with Junior.)

[Jeff Wrangler]

Like so much else in this film the sequence with Junior, Cassie, and Ennis is so rich.

Junior is clearly in a disappointed mood--at best--in the bar when she talks to Cassie. Clearly, she was anticipating some quality time alone with her father, and you can see her visibly deflate--you can almost hear the unspoken groan--when the pickup drives up and she sees Cassie in the passenger seat.

Her remark that Cassie is "good enough" for her father is certainly insulting to Cassie, but it doesn't say much about her father, either.

[jstephens9]

I agree Jeff. Junior is certainly not very happy at all about Cassie being in the pickup. That is clearly not what she expected or wanted her time with her father to consist of. As far as that scene goes, I don't think it would matter whether her father was gay or anything else. She was certainly not overjoyed with Cassie. She was also not at all happy that her father brought Cassie along.

[Artiste]

At least Alma Jr. is a decent person!

Not many are decent, not her mother that mcuh!

Hugs!

[Jeff Wrangler]

I agree Jeff. Junior is certainly not very happy at all about Cassie being in the pickup. That is clearly not what she expected or wanted her time with her father to consist of. As far as that scene goes, I don't think it would matter whether her father was gay or anything else. She was certainly not overjoyed with Cassie. She was also not at all happy that her father brought Cassie along.

Very true, Jack! 

[Katie77]

At least Alma Jr. is a decent person!

Not many are decent, not her mother that mcuh!

Hugs!

I think you are being way to harsh on Alma......as Ennis said....."aint her fault".....

...and i'm not going to get into the morality of who was wrong, or who did what in their marriage....as a mother it seems to me that Alma was very decent......

How many women have their ex-husbands to Thanksgiving?......and it is obvious she has kept Ennis' secret from everyone.....I think that is very decent.....

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think you are being way to harsh on Alma......as Ennis said....."aint her fault".....

...and i'm not going to get into the morality of who was wrong, or who did what in their marriage....as a mother it seems to me that Alma was very decent......

How many women have their ex-husbands to Thanksgiving?......and it is obvious she has kept Ennis' secret from everyone.....I think that is very decent.....

I agree with you, Katie. Though I don't think she was really that happy to have Ennis to Thanksgiving, I think she put her own preferences aside and did it for her daughters, so they could be with their daddy. Pretty decent of Monroe to go along with it, too.

[delalluvia]

What a condescending characterization!

I don't think that there is evidence one way or the other as to Alma's intellectual abilities or her chioice of reading materials  . Just because someone is not quoting
Proust or making up cute Haiku verse on screen, that doesn't make them a dummy.

Didn't say she was a dummy, just said she wasn't any smarter than the average teenage girl.  Certainly her actions don't hint at any 'deeper' intelligence.  She's just an average small town girl.

Still waters run deep.  Hmmmm.  Yes, but what does that mean exactly?  I never heard it used in describing someone's intelligence.  As for getting smarts from her father...Ennis is the one who thought telling his wife he was fishing for years but never bringing any home nor using his reel was a good cover story, don't forget.

She was a reticent young woman who would soon be finding her own way in life. She wanted her Daddy, whom she loved, to be at her wedding. She related to him in a way that convinced him to quit his job cowboying in the Tetons and attend her wedding. I'd say she was a very skillful young lady, even Jack couldn't always get Ennis to quit his job in order to see him!

 Give Alma, Jr a break!

Remember, Junior is the oldest daughter.  That means her sister is likely still a minor.

Ever heard of child support?

Ennis is not only living in poverty, it's possible Ennis is still paying child support for her sister, yet Junior has no problem with him quitting his job for her wedding.  That he's going to have to scramble to get another job in time for his next support payment/rent so he doesn't get behind doesn't bother/occur to her.

Skillful or just typical teenager - self-absorbed and oblivious?

Yes, I believe the dialogue meant he was going to have to quit his job to attend the wedding.  In ranching, like Ennis said when the heifers were calving, you have to be there.  Ranchers have to have a certain amount of manpower for a drive.  Being short-handed makes it more dangerous and more work for those left behind.  So basically they would replace Ennis and then he'd have no place in the drive after the wedding.  It isn't a 9-5 job with days off for weddings.

[jstephens9]

Yes, I believe the dialogue meant he was going to have to quit his job to attend the wedding.  In ranching, like Ennis said when the heifers were calving, you have to be there.  They have to have certain amount of manpower for a drive.  Being short-handed makes it more dangerous and more work for those left behind.  So basically they would replace him and then he'd have no place in the drive after the wedding.  It isn't a 9-5 job with days off for weddings.

Remember though, Ennis at first says he cannot go to the wedding because of work, then he hesitates and in my opinion thinks about Jack and perhaps loosing Jack because he did put the work ahead of Jack. As others have said, I think this is a time when Ennis does realize the importance of those that you love. I think that is what he thinks about when he tells Junior that he will be at the wedding. Yes, he will suffer financially for going, but at this point I believe he discovers that it will be worth it to be there for his daughter. He will find another job. He may not have another chance to be with his daughter at this special time for her.

[jstephens9]

I think you are being way to harsh on Alma......as Ennis said....."aint her fault".....

...and i'm not going to get into the morality of who was wrong, or who did what in their marriage....as a mother it seems to me that Alma was very decent......

How many women have their ex-husbands to Thanksgiving?......and it is obvious she has kept Ennis' secret from everyone.....I think that is very decent.....

I also agree Katie. I just don't find Alma to be that bad of a person. I'm not sure why people are seeing her as that. Like someone else said, Ennis told Jack that it wasn't Alma's fault and it wasn't in my opinion.

[delalluvia]

Remember though, Ennis at first says he cannot go to the wedding because of work, then he hesitates and in my opinion thinks about Jack and perhaps loosing Jack because he did put the work ahead of Jack. As others have said, I think this is a time when Ennis does realize the importance of those that you love. I think that is what he thinks about when he tells Junior that he will be at the wedding. Yes, he will suffer financially for going, but at this point I believe he discovers that it will be worth it to be there for his daughter. He will find another job. He may not have another chance to be with his daughter at this special time for her.

I agree that's what that scene was meant to portray.  Ennis is a grown man and he makes his own decisions.

But remember, Ennis - both story and movie - is never shown to be a very good father.  He had an at-home wife and two young kids to support back in 'them days' when he 'just quit those jobs'.  So here is a mixed example.  A good father - being there for his daughter's wedding - but jeopardizing his youngest child's support payment.

In a way, you can almost see Junior as the next Jack in Ennis life.  Wanting him to be with her for whatever reason - and if he just quits his jobs to do it - that's OK with her, no matter the problems that causes for Ennis or anyone else in his life.

[LauraGigs]

From the opening passage from Annie Proulx’s book “Brokeback Mountain.”
   
Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.

I quote this to make a few points: 
1) Ranch work comes and goes.
2) Family is all Ennis is left with in the end.

I could see Junior being "self-absorbed and oblivious" if she asked Ennis for any money for the wedding, or asked him to help out as she did the rest of the family.  But she didn't; she'd made all the arrangements, gotten others to contribute where they could (Monroe + Jenny) — then come by to invite her father.

Can you picture what it would be like if Ennis hadn't been invited?
"He needs to make money for child support; I won't bother him."  <— To me that's the more insulting, treating him like a human cash machine rather than a family member with feelings.
So he ends up in his trailer all alone, with no supportive or caring family members? No one to lean on (emotionally or financially) in his later years? He's earned better than that, and Alma Junior knows it.

[delalluvia]

From the opening passage from Annie Proulx’s book “Brokeback Mountain.”
   
Again the ranch is on the market and they've shipped out the last of the horses, paid everybody off the day before, the owner saying, "Give em to the real estate shark, I'm out a here," dropping the keys in Ennis's hand. He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.

I quote this to make a few points: 
1) Ranch work comes and goes.
2) Family is all Ennis is left with in the end.

I could see Junior being "self-absorbed and oblivious" if she asked Ennis for any money for the wedding, or asked him to help out as she did the rest of the family.  But she didn't; she'd made all the arrangements, gotten others to contribute where they could (Monroe + Jenny) — then come by to invite her father.

Can you picture what it would be like if Ennis hadn't been invited?
"He needs to make money for child support; I won't bother him."  <— To me that's the more insulting, treating him like a human cash machine rather than a family member with feelings.
So he ends up in his trailer all alone, with no supportive or caring family members? No one to lean on (emotionally or financially) in his later years? He's earned better than that, and Alma Junior knows it.

It doesn't have to be so black and white.  She most certainly can invite him, most of us invite people to special events we know have no chance of showing up, for whatever reason:

"Daddy I'm getting married.  Can you come give me away?"

"Oh honey, I gotta drive down in the Tetons."

"OK, well, when you're back why don't you come by and see our new place and the pictures of the wedding?"

That would seem to be more of a realistic dialogue and a compromise both would find acceptable given each other's circumstances.

[Katie77]

I think she asked Ennis to her wedding out of curtesy and respect to her father.......truth is, her mother probably told her "you better get out there and let your father know about the wedding and invite him"....truth is, she probably did not think he would be able to attend anyway.....

It was obvious that Alma Jnr and Ennis had not had a lot of communication since she had met her future husband, Ennis didnt know what he did for a living, or even his name, so the father and daughter were not THAT close.....and that doesnt mean there was any friction with them, a teenage girl would be spending more time with her friends and boyfriend......

I think Ennis did a bit of soul searching, listening to Alma Jnr talk about how much she loved her guy.....and saying he would come to the wedding, was his way of showing her that it was glad to see her so happy and that he would do whatever he needed to do, to celebrate and be there on her special day....he was telling her she was important to him, and he was prepared to make the effort for her.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Whether we are supposed to assume it or not, because of tradition, Junior doesn't actually ask Ennis to come to the wedding and give her away. She just says she was hoping he would be there. It has crossed my mind more than once that McMurtry and Ossana and Lee might just as easily have had her say, "Was hopin' you could come and give me away," but they didn't.

And the look on her face when he initially says no is kind of like, "Same as always, I can't be there for you." Like she more or less expected it.

Let's also not forget that we have seen Ennis negotiating for time off from a job without actually quitting it. The conflict with Jack on their last fishing trip is precipitated because Ennis had traded off working all August--when he had promised to spend time with Jack--in order to get the time off earlier in the year.

[Katie77]

We have really got off the track of the original question here....but its been great discussion just the same....

Back to the original question.....Did Alma Jnr.know Ennis was gay?

In a nutshell........Crikey!....Ennis DID NOT KNOW he was gay.....so why or how would Alma Jnr. know....

[jstephens9]

We have really got off the track of the original question here....but its been great discussion just the same....

Back to the original question.....Did Alma Jnr.know Ennis was gay?

In a nutshell........Crikey!....Ennis DID NOT KNOW he was gay.....so why or how would Alma Jnr. know....

Good point Katie!!! 

[Jeff Wrangler]

In a nutshell........Crikey!....Ennis DID NOT KNOW he was gay.....so why or how would Alma Jnr. know....

Yup, that's puttin' it in a nutshell all right! 

[Brown Eyes]

Good point Katie!!! 

   Yes, good point Katie!  Definitely. 

Although, it could be said that sometimes someone outside of oneself can see the person or situation more clearly than they can see themselves.  I think self-awareness is sometimes harder than figuring out someone else. 

I think there's little chance that Alma Jr. would have been capable of deducing all the aspects of Ennis's situation.  I'm guessing she may have had something like a hunch or some fuzzy ideas about what his situation might be.  She certainly wouldn't know the details and... she'd probably have no idea how hard things got for Ennis (and Jack) at times.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Although, it could be said that sometimes someone outside of oneself can see the person or situation more clearly than they can see themselves.  I think self-awareness is sometimes harder than figuring out someone else. 

Yes, it sure is. I have unlimited faith in the ability of human beings for self-deception, intentional or otherwise.

[jstephens9]

I don't think there is any way she could have known how hard it was for Jack and Ennis whether or not she suspected or did not suspect her father was gay. I actually still find it hard to imagine that she could have used the term "gay" for Ennis. Can you only imagine if Junior would have said "Daddy I know you are gay and that is ok?" Ennis would have said "I ain't queer."  I truly believe that the feelings Ennis had for Jack were things that he could have not put into one word such as "gay" or "queer" or whatever. They were feelings that Ennis did not know how to deal with in his mind. They were real feelings that I don't think Ennis could have found a word which would describe it. In fact, it may be that Junior understood him more than he understood himself.

[Katie77]

I don't think there is any way she could have known how hard it was for Jack and Ennis whether or not she suspected or did not suspect her father was gay. I actually still find it hard to imagine that she could have used the term "gay" for Ennis. Can you only imagine if Junior would have said "Daddy I know you are gay and that is ok?" Ennis would have said "I ain't queer."  I truly believe that the feelings Ennis had for Jack were things that he could have not put into one word such as "gay" or "queer" or whatever. They were feelings that Ennis did not know how to deal with in his mind. They were real feelings that I don't think Ennis could have found a word which would describe it. In fact, it may be that Junior understood him more than he understood himself.

I think the word he was looking for was  "LOVE"

[jstephens9]

Wow Katie you sure do have a way of hitting the nail on the head. Yeah that would be the word 

[Marge_Innavera]

I definitely agree there, Marge.  But there's a huge difference between hearing gayness mentioned on the TV or by giggly highschoolers, and making the leap that your big, macho, stoic father has been faking straight since before you were born, you know?

Actually, that's one of the reasons I suspect that if Ennis ever came out to either of his daughters, it would be a good distance in the future.

I mean, even if Ennis was straight, never met Jack and his marriage broke up for other reasons -- how many people feel at ease discussing their sex life with their children, even adult children; or vice versa. For a lot of us, just the thought of our parents having sex causes the heebie-jeebies.   

[Marge_Innavera]

I don't think that there is evidence one way or the other as to Alma's intellectual abilities or her chioice of reading materials  . Just because someone is not quoting Proust or making up cute Haiku verse on screen, that doesn't make them a dummy. She was a reticent young woman who would soon be finding her own way in life. She wanted her Daddy, whom she loved, to be at her wedding. She related to him in a way that convinced him to quit his job cowboying in the Tetons and attend her wedding. I'd say she was a very skillful young lady, even Jack couldn't always get Ennis to quit his job in order to see him!

Yes, most of the shortcomings a viewer could come up with about Junior -- based on what little we're told about her -- can be attributed to her age. We can only speculate about what she'd be like with some years on her.

IMO her wanting her father at her wedding, and looking so happy when he says he'll be there, is not ony totally understandable; in a way it's an indication of how this father-daughter connection has persisted in spite of everything. Just the fact that she even asks her father to be at her wedding indicates that there are quite a few bridges to be mended, most of it caused by neglect. 

Or put it this way: I never invited my own father to my wedding, and he would have been totally mystified if I had -- he just assumed he'd be walking me down the aisle the minute I announced my engagement.

[Artiste]

At least Alma Jr. is a decent person.

Unlike her mother who is vicious, Alma Jr. accepts her father being a gay man or an bi-person!!

Hugs!

[souxi]

I wouldn,t say that Alma senior was vicious. You have to remember that she loved Ennis, and as if that wasn,t bad enough that he loved someone else and not her, what made it doubly worse for her, was that it was a man. That had to hurt.

[Artiste]

Souxi, Ennis was hurting too!

Alma senior could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously!! She ended it, not her husband!

Ennis would have kept on with the marriage, even after Jack's return! He was the decent one!

Besides Alma Senior was already playing the field even if she was married!! ??

A real lady married to a gay guy, finding out that he is a bi or gay man, does not become to act at all the way she did! Alma Senior is vicious, and she is seen that way too in the movie at that Thanksgiving!

However, Alma Jr. was kind to her father, even if she knew that he was a bi or gay man!  Alma Jr. was not vicious, but could have been like her mother!!  Alma Jr. is not anti-gay like her mother is!

Things to think about...
hugs!

[delalluvia]

Souxi, Ennis was hurting too!

Alma senior could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously!! She ended it, not her husband!

Viciously?  How did she end it viciously?  She asked for a divorce and probably never told a soul why exactly.  That speaks to a great deal of decency on her part.

Ennis would have kept on with the marriage, even after Jack's return! He was the decent one!

Ennis was a poor father and a poor husband.  He used the marriage to justify his heterosexual status, not because he honored his marriage to Alma in any true form.

Besides Alma Senior was already playing the field even if she was married!! ??

Do we know this for certain?  And if we can suspect Alma about playing the field, we have no doubts about Ennis, now do we?  He was certainly unfaithful to Alma, wasn't he?

A real lady married to a gay guy, finding out that he is a bi or gay man, does not become to act at all the way she did! Alma Senior is vicious, and she is seen that way too in the movie at that Thanksgiving!

How is she vicious?  She invited the man so he could be with his children.  Sounds pretty gracious to me.  That she confronts Ennis about his infidelity/homosexuality is actually quite normal, perfectly justified and was a long time in coming, IMO.  Just her timing was off - Thanksgiving wasn't the place for it.

[Katie77]

Souxi, Ennis was hurting too!

Alma senior could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously!! She ended it, not her husband!

Ennis would have kept on with the marriage, even after Jack's return! He was the decent one!

Besides Alma Senior was already playing the field even if she was married!! ??

A real lady married to a gay guy, finding out that he is a bi or gay man, does not become to act at all the way she did! Alma Senior is vicious, and she is seen that way too in the movie at that Thanksgiving!

However, Alma Jr. was kind to her father, even if she knew that he was a bi or gay man!  Alma Jr. was not vicious, but could have been like her mother!!  Alma Jr. is not anti-gay like her mother is!

Things to think about...
hugs!

OMG !!!!........OMG!!!!........I am practically speeechless,to think that anyone would have this opinion of Alma.....I'm starting to wonder whether we saw the same movie or read the same story.....

"She could have continued her marriage, but ended it viciously"....??......Alma was a woman, a wife and a mother........not a robot........not a saint.....

And Ennis was the "decent one" because "he would have kept on with the marriage"......?.....Yeah, pretty decent of him to spend all his work holidays with someone else, quit his jobs without any consideration for his family's financial welfare, not to mention the extra sexual activity......decent..

And finally..."a real lady finding out her husband was bi or gay, would not have acted the way she did"..........

Now let me tell you how a real lady in that position acts......she puts up with it for a while, even welcomes his gay friends into her home, she accepts that her husband is gay, and that he cannot love her like she loves him, then eventually she realizes that she needs to remove herself and her two daughters from the situation, so her husband can go on with the life he needs and she can go on with the life that she needs......she remains on friendly terms with her husband and his male partner, invites them to share Christmas and other activities with his daughters in her new family setting, and  she goes out to work to give some financial security to her and her daughters.....She does not discuss the real reason for her marriage breakdown, she does not try to turn her daughters off their father by telling them that he is bad, or that he is a homosexual, she knows in time, when they are old enough, that he will tell them, in the way that they will understand......Was she hurting???.....too dam right she was hurting, and she knew her husband was too.....She loved him until the day he died....

........She sounds a lot like Alma dont you think.........well its not Alma I am writing about here....
.........I am writing about MY OWN MOTHER........
 

[tampatalon]

I think that Alma Senior did the best she could do for her situation and she did act like a lady as
Katie has described. If Ennis had fessed up to her at Thanksgiving, I could only imagine that many family wounds would have started and I stress only started to heal for her and Ennis. I believe that Alma Senior did be a lady and protect Ennis from the town talk by her silence on his preference.For the place and time period, she did the best for her family, including Ennis.

TampaTalon^">

[delalluvia]

OMG !!!!........OMG!!!!........I am practically speeechless,to think that anyone would have this opinion of Alma.....I'm starting to wonder whether we saw the same movie or read the same story

I agree Katie and I think it does a great disservice to Annie Proulx, Ang Lee and the writers to believe that Alma was a screeching, homophobic harridan bitch who deserved everything that happened to her.

To portray the wives this way in the movie would have made it very easy to drum up sympathy for the main characters:

"See?  Their wives are such vicious evil women, no wonder the men turned away from them.  They deserved to be cheated on"

But that's too Hollywood.  The good guy wears a white hat and the bad guy wears a black hat.

Instead, Ang and the writers went out of their way to make as realistic a story as possible.  Alma didn't do anything wrong.  She was a sweet girl, deeply in love with a man who couldn't love her back.  She never turned mean, she never took it out on him, she finally, simply just left him and didn't say a word, though she most certainly would have been justified in doing so.

BBM is a tragedy, and not just for Ennis and Jack.  Ang wanted us to see how the chains of keeping people from being themselves creates pain and misery not just for those directly affected, but for everyone around them - and that includes their wives and children.

[jstephens9]

BBM is a tragedy, and not just for Ennis and Jack.  Ang wanted us to see how the chains of keeping people from being themselves creates pain and misery not just for those directly affected, but for everyone around them - and that includes their wives and children.

You sure are right about that. It is very sad to see how many people can be affected by someone not being able to live their true life. And in many cases they actually think they are protecting others such as their wives and children. As far as Junior goes I do think she deeply loves her father and I do not think that would change if she did know he was gay. I think his happiness would truly be more important to her.

[Katie77]

BBM is a tragedy, and not just for Ennis and Jack.  Ang wanted us to see how the chains of keeping people from being themselves creates pain and misery not just for those directly affected, but for everyone around them - and that includes their wives and children.

Perfect way of describing BBM....absolutely......

It was not a competition of who was hurting or was hurt the most.....everyone was hurting, and regardless of what they were hurting about, the hurt still hurts, and those involved make descision emotionally trying to not hurt those around them, but no matter how much they try to do that, somehow, everyone still gets hurt in some way or another.......

[Artiste]

Thanks to all of you!  Since you have been many replying to my last reply, I am happy about your replies!!

All of you sure awake me with your may details!! I learn this way! And many others will too! We all educate ourselves this way! This subject puzzled me a great deal, and still does. At least, some answers were given which I accept!

Now, let us turn the story, a bit. What if Ennis was the STAY AT HOME SPOUSE?? Yes, him only the houseperson? Give me details? They would be the same?

(TOO: Then, Alma Jr. would have know EARLIER that her father was a bi or gay man??)

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks to all of you!  Since you have been many replying to my last reply, I am happy about your replies!!

All of you sure awake me with your may details!! I learn this way! And many others will too! We all educate ourselves this way! This subject puzzled me a great deal, and still does. At least, some answers were given which I accept!

Now, let us turn the story, a bit. What if Ennis was the STAY AT HOME SPOUSE?? Yes, him only the houseperson? Give me details? They would be the same?

(TOO: Then, Alma Jr. would have know EARLIER that her father was a bi or gay man??)

Hugs!

A stay at home Ennis househusband is completely out of character with the times and the slice of Wyoming demographic pie that AP is serving up. It is just too inconsistent with the Ennis character as defined by AP to seriously consider. Now Jack on the other hand......hmmm that is worth considering. Jack might have made a perfect househusband, that is with the time he had left over from seeing Ennis and "rendezvousing" with other men in the Childress area. 

[LauraGigs]

I agree with Brokeplex here.  Artiste, do you remember the scene when Ennis is following Alma out of the apartment and yelling at her out on the street, because she took the extra shift at work (even though she had still cooked dinner for him and the girls)? 

The point is, even though he worked and was the primary breadwinner, he was bothered by that. He never would have accepted a spouse being the primary wage-earner and he the house-husband. It just wouldn't happen.

[Artiste]

Thanks LauraGigs, and thanks brokeplex!!

LauraGigs, firstly I will try to add or reply to your comment. Of course, Ennis was bothered because his wife went for the second shift, likely so since he considered himself a man, a spouse and a father, and the primary breadwinner then. But may I wonder if his wife wanted him to be the primary breadwinner? May I ask?
...

brokeplex: Ennis, I figure,  would have made a good houseperson, since he loved his children, and may I say his love too was for his wife! 

Regarding that, when my father became ill, he stayed at home. Luckily, mother was forced as such to go to work outside the house, since she was the houseperson before that! That bothered father for the rest of his life that he could not anymore provide for her and us kids!! It would have been a shame to get welfare then... but none would have been given even.

In Montréal last November 2007, I was shocked (surprised too) as well as pleased finally when I asked a male young artist I was exhibiting with at an art exhibition there in that city, what kind of work he did, and that he told me that he was the houseperson and that his wife worked outside the house!! They have kids too!! I am still puzzled... by that! Since, he wants to work as that, plus or more, I felt??

...
So yes it would have happened then and would be now too that Ennis would have been an houseperson!!
May I say, yes!
...

That is one more reason for me to say that Alma Jr. knew that her father was bi or gay!! May I guess!! ??

hugs, hugs!!

[LauraGigs]

But may I wonder if his wife wanted him to be the primary breadwinner? May I ask?

Sure, she did. She expected that he'd be the primary breadwinner and she'd be the primary house-person. Every time you see her in the film she's doing laundry or knitting, and in the one scene when Ennis comes home to find the postcard, she's cooking with Alma Junior right beside her, also in an apron at a little stove. (Basically instructing her little girl in the art of being a housewife.) Alma has no problem with the traditional setup at all.

If you remember the first scene in bed with her + Ennis, she wants to move to an apartment in town so Alma Junior will have playmates and Jenny (with her asthma spells) will be closer to medical services. The next thing you see, they're living there, and Alma is working. So evidently, that's the compromise she + Ennis came to: they're in a slightly more expensive place like she wanted, and she is earning a little extra money so they can afford it.

So yes it would have happened then and would be now too that Ennis would have been an houseperson!!
May I say, yes!
...
That is one more reason for me to say that Alma Jr. knew that her father was bi or gay!! May I guess!! ??

I don't think so.  It doesn't really make sense.  Ennis would always want to work outside in the field.

And if Brokeback Mountain showed us anything, it's that gay men can be quite traditionally masculine!  Being a houseperson doesn't make one more likely to be gay, and vice versa.

[brokeplex]

Sure, she did. She expected that he'd be the primary breadwinner and she'd be the primary house-person. Every time you see her in the film she's doing laundry or knitting, and in the one scene when Ennis comes home to find the postcard, she's cooking with Alma Junior right beside her, also in an apron at a little stove. (Basically instructing her little girl in the art of being a housewife.) Alma has no problem with the traditional setup at all.

If you remember the first scene in bed with her + Ennis, she wants to move to an apartment in town so Alma Junior will have playmates and Jenny (with her asthma spells) will be closer to medical services. The next thing you see, they're living there, and Alma is working. So evidently, that's the compromise she + Ennis came to: they're in a slightly more expensive place like she wanted, and she is earning a little extra money so they can afford it.

I don't think so.  It doesn't really make sense.  Ennis would always want to work outside in the field.

And if Brokeback Mountain showed us anything, it's that gay men can be quite traditionally masculine!  Being a houseperson doesn't make one more likely to be gay.

great comments.....you know I do wonder if Ennis really was the "primary" source of income for the Delmar household. Ennis's occupation is low paying at best, and he never built up any seniority with the local ranching community because he quit his jobs from time to time. Alma was dedicated to her job and even took extra shifts.
As much as I really am not sympathetic at all with Ennis until near the end of the movie, I really liked and respected Alma. If I were straight I'd be her house-husband in no time flat!

[Artiste]

Thanks LauraGigs, and thanks brokeplex!!

Brokeplex, you managed to make me laugh when you say you would be Alma's houseperson!!  I wonder why you say that? May I ask?

...................................................................................................

LauraGigs, you say: And if Brokeback Mountain showed us anything, it's that gay men can be quite traditionally masculine!  Being a houseperson doesn't make one more likely to be gay.

May I add LauraGigs: Concerning that most femme-men, or men who dress in women's clothes, I have seen or read about in surveys are straights (mostly all. And I know that nearly all gay men that I met are indeed masculine!! You are right!! So this film breaks away a bit from others films who places feminine acting men as gay men!!

Since you say that being a male houseperson does not make him a gay man, you are right. I think that I met one last month who is a straight (heterosexual) man!

...

I think that if Ennis would have been let by his wife to be a houseperson, then Alma Jr. would have known earlier that her father was bi or a gay man!! ?? Would you think about that??

Hugs! Hugs!

[Katie77]

I think that if Ennis would have been let by his wife to be a houseperson, then Alma Jr. would have known earlier that her father was bi or a gay man!! ?? Would you think about that??

Hugs! Hugs!

Oh for God's sake......houseperson???.......we are talking the sixties, men went to work, women stayed home....or if women did go to work, it was usually to supplement the husband's income......

Alma Jnr would NOT have thought her father was gay whether he was a houseperson or whether he walked around the house in a dress.....he was HER father, thats all she saw him as........

[Artiste]

Thanks Katie77!

When my father was sick, he continued to work outside the house, but when he could not at all anymore, he was inside the home. And just because he was gay or not, he did not wear a dress!! Not at all!!

So I think that him or Ennis as housepersons, would have been Ok then at that time, since they would have had no choice maybe, at least father had to do so: become a houseperson! Ennis continued to work outside the house, in the movie.

However, if Ennis would have continued to live but as an houseperson with his wife (Alma Sr.) working outside the house, surely he would have been giving signs, as he thought more about his life and his daughters lives as he took care of them more directly. And, therefore, somehow, I would think that Alma Jr. would have known that her father was a bi or gay man!! Surely so, don't you think?

Hugs!

[Katie77]

Completely hyperthetical Artiste.......

And NO I dont think so.........

[Artiste]

Alma Jr. in the movie saw her father being hugged by Jack! Intensely!

So, she knew that her father is an bi or gay man!

What do you think?

Hugs!

[Aussie Chris]

Alma Jr. in the movie saw her father being hugged by Jack! Intensely!

So, she knew that her father is an bi or gay man!

What do you think?

Hugs!

We have one "intense hug" in the film for which Alma Jr. witnesses to base this on.  Was there any others?  We don't know.  But I seriously doubt that one hug would have her thinking "OMG my daddy's queer"!  So no, I don't think so.  Not because of the hug anyway.

[Katie77]

Alma Jr. in the movie saw her father being hugged by Jack! Intensely!

So, she knew that her father is an bi or gay man!

What do you think?

Hugs!

Alma Jnr was NOT just sitting around looking for signs that her father was gay, it probably never entered her young innocent mind....Children dont think about their parents sex life....they just dont....

So I dont think a hug would have even been noticed by a young child, let alone conjured up any other thoughts by her.

[brokeplex]

Perhaps if Alma had dropped a hint to Jr., she might have suspected. Had Ennis ever been able to speak with Jr about his feelings for Jack and his loss after his death, it could have led to a healing for Ennis. But, that is all hypothetical, all we know is that Alma loved her Daddy very much and wanted him in her life. Ennis wanted to be included in his daughter's lives, and we know in the short story in the preamble, Ennis as a much older man speculated after yet one more job had fizzled on him, that he might have to move in with his married daughter (note: married daughter singular not plural, which implies that Jenny had not yet married by the start of the short story). The fact that he would consider moving in with Alma, gives me hope that Ennis had a great relationship with his daughter and his son-in-law, the oil field worker.

[Marge_Innavera]

I wouldn,t say that Alma senior was vicious. You have to remember that she loved Ennis, and as if that wasn,t bad enough that he loved someone else and not her, what made it doubly worse for her, was that it was a man. That had to hurt.

IMO she was not the most attractive character in the Thanksgiving scene -- she seemed to deliberately goad her ex-husband into a confrontation on a family holiday with her daughters in the next room.

But oddly enough, this made her a more likable character overall. It kept her from becoming the proverbial Suffering Victim.

[Jeff Wrangler]

IMO she was not the most attractive character in the Thanksgiving scene -- she seemed to deliberately goad her ex-husband into a confrontation on a family holiday with her daughters in the next room.

But oddly enough, this made her a more likable character overall. It kept her from becoming the proverbial Suffering Victim.

She sort of grimaces at the dinner table when Junior asks Ennis to tell his saddle bronc story.

And I think she did deliberately goad Ennis in the kitchen--though that must have been building up for years.

[LauraGigs]

she seemed to deliberately goad her ex-husband into a confrontation on a family holiday with her daughters in the next room.

I have to disagree.  Do you remember at the final lake scene when Jack asks, "All this time, you ain't found no one else to marry?"  He's basically doing the same thing Alma is: checking out where Ennis' heart is at . . .  how he's doing.

Around when my father died & we were all dealing with it, my brother-in-law would ask, "how's your head and your heart?" Basically the same question. Very direct, and also too touchy-feely for the period (and especially to someone like Ennis). Jack and Alma's question to Ennis is basically another way of asking that. (It's obviously not literal; they of all people would be the most shocked if Ennis were to remarry.)

It's when Ennis says "once burned". The flow of Alma's activities in the kitchen stops, her face freezes, and her demeanor changes. That was the final straw.

[Jeff Wrangler]

It's when Ennis says "once burned". The flow of Alma's activities in the kitchen stops, her face freezes, and her demeanor changes. That was the final straw.

While I don't agree with you that the "once burned" comment from Ennis was the last straw for Alma, it sure wasn't something very nice to say to your hostess. 

[LauraGigs]

I don't know. Alma makes the 'married again' comment in a relaxed and offhand way, in a languid, almost sleepy voice (full of milk and turkey). It's after his "once burned" reply that she visibly bristles.

He'd cheated on her for years with someone he's met before they were even married (making his marriage to her a sham), sodomized her when she didn't want it, yelled at her out on the street, and indicated ("I'll be happy to leave you alone") complete lack of interest in her sexual and emotional satisfaction. And after all that, he's blaming her for the failure of the marriage? 

I think anybody would let him have it after that, and be justified in doing so.

[southendmd]

I have to agree with you, Laura, about the "once burned":  it comes off as a real insult, and her barely contained anger lets loose.  I'd probably let him have it, too. 

Here's the line from the story:

"Once burned," he said, leaning against the counter, feeling too big for the room.

Ennis could have said something a lot more civil. 

[serious crayons]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I can see "once burned" as meaning he was burned by the experience of a failed marriage, not by Alma's faults. True, even so it's not the most polite comment ever.

On the other hand, "You ought to get married" is not a remark anyone really wants to hear either, gay or straight, single or divorced. Who likes having people pressure you about that, whatever your reasons for being single? (A similar one, if you already are married, is, "You ought to have children.") And particularly not Ennis, who has a very specific reason for being unmarried, and one he wants to keep hidden. So Alma's initial question is a bit pushy itself.

I always see a direct line of causality between this conversation and his relationship with Cassie.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I don't know. Alma makes the 'married again' comment in a relaxed and offhand way, in a languid, almost sleepy voice (full of milk and turkey). It's after his "once burned" reply that she visibly bristles.

He'd cheated on her for years with someone he's met before they were even married (making his marriage to her a sham), sodomized her when she didn't want it, yelled at her out on the street, and indicated ("I'll be happy to leave you alone") complete lack of interest in her sexual and emotional satisfaction. And after all that, he's blaming her for the failure of the marriage? 

I think anybody would let him have it after that, and be justified in doing so.

I'm really not disagreeing with any of this. I just believe she knew exactly where she was heading right from the start. But perhaps Ennis's comment influenced the way she chose to get there.

It suddenly occurs to me to wonder, too, whether Alma's comment that she and the girls worried about Ennis might not have had some role in provoking his "Once burned" remark. It occurs to me that it might strike you as annoying to have the woman who divorced you tell you that she worries about you. I mean, hunh? 

[southendmd]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I can see "once burned" as meaning he was burned by the experience of a failed marriage, not by Alma's faults. True, even so it's not the most polite comment ever.

On the other hand, "You ought to get married" is not a remark anyone really wants to hear either, gay or straight, single or divorced. Who likes having people pressure you about that, whatever your reasons for being single? (A similar one, if you already are married, is, "You ought to have children.") And particularly not Ennis, who has a very specific reason for being unmarried, and one he wants to keep hidden. So Alma's initial question is a bit pushy itself.

I always see a direct line of causality between this conversation and his relationship with Cassie.

Intrusive, pushy, maybe.  But, she adds something like, "Me and the girls worry about you being alone so much."  (I don't see that as annoying; I mean, he accepted the Thanksgiving invitation.)

To me, the "once burned" comment said at that time implicitly blamed Alma for their marriage.  So, she explodes with the only thing she's got, that she somehow held in for many years.  As long as she was dependent on him, she never confronted him with the kiss, or the creel case.

[Jeff Wrangler]

To me, the "once burned" comment said at that time implicitly blamed Alma for their marriage.  So, she explodes with the only thing she's got, that she somehow held in for many years.  As long as she was dependent on him, she never confronted him with the kiss, or the creel case.

I agree with this.

Intrusive, pushy, maybe.  But, she adds something like, "Me and the girls worry about you being alone so much."  (I don't see that as annoying; I mean, he accepted the Thanksgiving invitation.)

Nevertheless, if someone who had sued me for divorce turns around and says that she "worries" about me in any way, shape, or form, I think my first respnse would be, "If you're so all-fired concerned about me, then what the hell did you divorce me for?"

Which is not to excuse Ennis for what he said, maybe only to offer a possible explanation for what might have provoked the remark.

[Artiste]

At least Alma Jr. was decent and cared for her father Ennis, even if I feel that she knew that her dad was a bi or gay man!!

That caring showed her that she was not anti-gay!

Hugs!!

[moremojo]

Lots of interesting, insightful comments in this thread (I think we could give any book/collection of essays on this story/film a good run for its money).

My own feeling on Junior is that she probably suspected that her father was gay or bisexual, at least by the time of her scene with Cassie. The cryptic "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" remark and her added "You're good enough" response suggest that she feels that Cassie is probably barking up the wrong tree where her dad is concerned. What I get from that latter comment is the sense that Junior does see Cassie as good enough for any man to want--but she can't trust her dad to really do so, because of what she senses as his true nature. I don't necessarily think that Junior had these perceptions/feelings fully articulated in her mind, but I do suspect they were there, however nebulous their form might have been and may even have remained.

[Jeff Wrangler]

(I think we could give any book/collection of essays on this story/film a good run for its money).

Did you have a particular one in mind, Scott? 

My own feeling on Junior is that she probably suspected that her father was gay or bisexual, at least by the time of her scene with Cassie. The cryptic "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" remark and her added "You're good enough" response suggest that she feels that Cassie is probably barking up the wrong tree where her dad is concerned. What I get from that latter comment is the sense that Junior does see Cassie as good enough for any man to want--but she can't trust her dad to really do so, because of what she senses as his true nature. I don't necessarily think that Junior had these perceptions/feelings fully articulated in her mind, but I do suspect they were there, however nebulous their form might have been and may even have remained.

I dunno, Scott. Seems to me this doesn't give the comment enough credit for being a put-down, which is how I think Cassie sees it (and how I see it--that Cassie may be "good enough" but she's nothing special, or no better than she should be), but in her basic good-natured way Cassie doesn't allow the insult to upset her.

[Katie77]

I have to agree with you, Laura, about the "once burned":  it comes off as a real insult, and her barely contained anger lets loose.  I'd probably let him have it, too. 

Here's the line from the story:

"Once burned," he said, leaning against the counter, feeling too big for the room.

Ennis could have said something a lot more civil. 

I think Alma was genuine in her caring for Ennis, and her comment about "me and the girls worry about you", was a gesture of that.

Then he let go with the "once burned" comment, which was like putting condemnation and blame on her.....and that was, I think, the straw that broke the camels back with Alma, as far as taking any of the blame for the marriage not working.She probably thought....."ok, enoughs enough, Im gonna let him know who and what did cause our marriage to disintegrate"......

Up until the time she spat out the "Jack Nasty" words, Ennis did not have any idea that Alma had had any suspicions about Jack, he thought he had got away with all of it, without her knowing anything, and he knew that everything she was saying to him was true. She was not only letting him know that she was aware that his "fishing trips" were a lie, she was telling him that she knew that Jack was more than just a fishing buddy to him.

The fact that she had held all that in for so long, is testement to her good nature....and also, I think she would have been afraid to confront him with it, while they were still married, because of his temper....the time had come, he lit the fuse with the "once burned" comment, and she exploded with the "Jack Nasty" one.........

[serious crayons]

I dunno, Scott. Seems to me this doesn't give the comment enough credit for being a put-down, which is how I think Cassie sees it (and how I see it--that Cassie may be "good enough" but she's nothing special, or no better than she should be), but in her basic good-natured way Cassie doesn't allow the insult to upset her.

I think I lean toward Scott's interpretation. I think Cassie takes it the way you do, Jeff -- that Alma Jr. is saying she's nothing special. But I think what Alma Jr. really means is that Cassie is plenty good enough to marry, and yet Ennis still doesn't do it, so therefore he must not be the marryin kind.

At that point, Alma Jr. may not know WHY he isn't the marryin kind, though. It seems to me that nowadays, when we look back on what in those days they'd call "confirmed bachelors" and the like, we now kind of assume that many of them were probably gay. But back while those days were still happening, the idea that they were gay probably didn't cross as many straight people's minds, and they just assumed they were men who preferred living alone. Does that make sense? And do those with a longer view of gay history agree?

However, in the final trailer scene, when Ennis asks "This Kurt fella, he loves you?" and then looks off to the side, emotions flashing over his face, I think Alma's curious and then sympathetic look suggests that she may understand that Ennis has gone through some kind of romantic heartbreak. And she probably knows it's not about Alma Sr. or Cassie. Yet she also knows her father isn't the marryin kind. So that, along with the many fishing trips and the big hug and so on, and the fact that by now it's the '80s, may have led her to put 2 and 2 and 2 and 2 together.

[southendmd]

I think Alma was genuine in her caring for Ennis, and her comment about "me and the girls worry about you", was a gesture of that.

Then he let go with the "once burned" comment, which was like putting condemnation and blame on her.....and that was, I think, the straw that broke the camels back with Alma, as far as taking any of the blame for the marriage not working.She probably thought....."ok, enoughs enough, Im gonna let him know who and what did cause our marriage to disintegrate"......

Up until the time she spat out the "Jack Nasty" words, Ennis did not have any idea that Alma had had any suspicions about Jack, he thought he had got away with all of it, without her knowing anything, and he knew that everything she was saying to him was true. She was not only letting him know that she was aware that his "fishing trips" were a lie, she was telling him that she knew that Jack was more than just a fishing buddy to him.

The fact that she had held all that in for so long, is testement to her good nature....and also, I think she would have been afraid to confront him with it, while they were still married, because of his temper....the time had come, he lit the fuse with the "once burned" comment, and she exploded with the "Jack Nasty" one.........

Yes, Katie, I like what you say.  From Alma's point of view, Jack was  indeed the cause of their failed marriage, and she held it in for close to ten years.

I think Annie said something about the wives' learning some "pretty tough lessons about life", as a result of this love between Jack and Ennis. 

[southendmd]

Katherine, I was also thinking about that old phrase "confirmed bachelor", along with "not the marrying kind", as polite euphemisms for "suspiciously gay". 

It reminds me of hearing the news about Rock Hudson and HIV.  I recall my mother saying that it must have been from a transfusion.  (At least she didn't say from a toilet seat LOL).  I remember (boldly) saying, "Well, that's a bit naive, isn't it?" 

In other words, "polite" folks didn't assume people--especially famous people, or those they actually knew--were gay. 

[Katie77]

This is off subject......but Southendmd......I do love your signature clips...........watch them over and over again......

[southendmd]

This is off subject......but Southendmd......I do love your signature clips...........watch them over and over again......

They are kind of mesmerizing...

On dial-up, they're often in slow-motion!

[Artiste]

Thanks ineedcrayons!

You say this: At that point, Alma Jr. may not know WHY he isn't the marryin kind, though. It seems to me that nowadays, when we look back on what in those days they'd call "confirmed bachelors" and the like, we now kind of assume that many of them were probably gay. But back while those days were still happening, the idea that they were gay probably didn't cross as many straight people's minds, and they just assumed they were men who preferred living alone. Does that make sense? And do those with a longer view of gay history agree?


...

May I say that you bring up a real good subject, indeed!! Could that be that too to-day??

When married to men ladies, asked me how come I am not married, mother protected me saying that there are many confirmed bachelors in our family, and partenal one too!! That did mean that, and not gay!!
...

I think you may have something to start a thread here with your comment??

...

To me, it is obvious in many ways in the movie, that Alma Jr. knew that her father was/is bi or gay!!

It is so nice to hear from you again, and am awaiting your news,

hugs!!

[serious crayons]

Yes, it occurred to me, too, that this might be an interesting subject for a thread. I will consider opening one in Safe Haven.

[cricket99999]

My two cents:

By the time she's at that bar with Ennis and Cassie, I believe Alma Jr. is plenty aware about sexual issues as well as the existence of gays.  This is post-sexual revolution.  She must have sensed something different about Ennis, and suspected.

Isn't that the main point of the conversation with Cassie?  For those who don't think Alma Jr had an inkling about Ennis: what was the point of the "not the marrying kind" scene?

Even the final scene is diminished in its power if Alma Jr. is thought to be clueless.  IMO

Alma Jr. likely picked up on clues throughout her teens, and slowly became aware.  For example, not only was the hug a clue, when she was barely a teen and Jack drove all the way from Texas after hearing of the divorce.  It was the hug, plus Jack suddenly leaving, plus the lingering distress she would have sensed in her father.

Surely Ennis didn't get in the truck and suddenly start acting normal? 

[Brown Eyes]

Even the final scene is diminished in its power if Alma Jr. is thought to be clueless.  IMO
 

I agree with this idea that the interpretation and power of the final scene in BBM must be very different for viewers who believe Junior knows vs. viewers who believe she really doesn't know.


I still contend that probably beginning with the "not the marrying kind" scene, through to the end... Junior has a vague notion or hunch that Ennis may be gay.  I don't know that the idea ever becomes entirely concrete... and I'm sure the details remain fuzzy to her.  But, I do think she has a hunch.

[moremojo]

If we return to the original story, it is interesting to speculate on how Ennis would have fared staying with his married daughter (not specifically named, but very likely Junior) and son-in-law after his eviction from the ranch. Specifically, I'm wondering how he would have handled the transfer of the shirts-and-postcard shrine to his temporary new domicile (though I seem to recall his trailer going with him, he would not necessarily be staying in it while relying on his child's hospitality). The shrine in the story hangs upon the trailer wall, and anyone who investigated it would probably have some curiosity about how it came to be there and what it meant. Any encounter with the shrine on Junior's part would have had to bolster any speculations she might have had concerning her father's private life.

[LauraGigs]

If we return to the original story, it is interesting to speculate on how Ennis would have fared staying with his married daughter (not specifically named, but very likely Junior) and son-in-law after his eviction from the ranch. Specifically, I'm wondering how he would have handled the transfer of the shirts-and-postcard shrine to his temporary new domicile (though I seem to recall his trailer going with him, he would not necessarily be staying in it while relying on his child's hospitality). The shrine in the story hangs upon the trailer wall, and anyone who investigated it would probably have some curiosity about how it came to be there and what it meant. Any encounter with the shrine on Junior's part would have had to bolster any speculations she might have had concerning her father's private life.

Scott, if I recall correctly, the shirts are hung on a nail which (in the film) is driven into the inside of Ennis' closet door. Remember, in the very last frame he closes this door and the window to the outside becomes visible? I believe it's that way in the book too. (The closet in the film looks like a portable one, one that could just be carried into a house or wherever.)

But anyway, the crux of your question is most interesting! I have to agree with Katie and others here that if Junior was involved in the handling of Ennis' property upon his death (or debilitation), the "shrine" would be the final piece of the puzzle to confirm to her that yes, the love of her father's life was a man.

[Jeff Wrangler]

If we return to the original story, it is interesting to speculate on how Ennis would have fared staying with his married daughter (not specifically named, but very likely Junior) and son-in-law after his eviction from the ranch. Specifically, I'm wondering how he would have handled the transfer of the shirts-and-postcard shrine to his temporary new domicile (though I seem to recall his trailer going with him, he would not necessarily be staying in it while relying on his child's hospitality). The shrine in the story hangs upon the trailer wall, and anyone who investigated it would probably have some curiosity about how it came to be there and what it meant. Any encounter with the shrine on Junior's part would have had to bolster any speculations she might have had concerning her father's private life.

Actually, it's a horse trailer mentioned in the story. The point is made that it might be bad out on the highway with the horse trailer because of the wind that is blowing sand against the trailer where Ennis is living when he awakes. The story also speaks of Ennis needing to be packed and away, so I assume he's leaving the residence trailer behind, but, of course, he's taking his horses with him.

As for the shrine, does this assume she knows why her father has two old shirts on a hanger on a nail, or that in fact they aren't both his shirts, just two old shirts? What if she doesn't know this? What if she just thinks that, inexplicably, her father left these two ratty old dirty shirts hanging on a hanger?

[Brown Eyes]

As for the shrine, does this assume she knows why her father has two old shirts on a hanger on a nail, or that in fact they aren't both his shirts, just two old shirts? What if she doesn't know this? What if she just thinks that, inexplicably, her father left these two ratty old dirty shirts hanging on a hanger?

I think it's reasonable to suspect that she would have noticed the "shrine" in such a small space with few objects to distract attention.  It would really be very easy for her to stumble across the shirts and postcard (when you think about it).  And, given that Junior at least seems to be observant (we're shown Alma *watching* a lot in the film... in various circumstances) it seems likely that she would find the "shrine" significant... perhaps odd... and perhaps meaningful.  But, again, it's hard to imagine that she would be able to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together to understand the specific details of Ennis's situation.  I would think, though, that the "shrine" would be one more element to add to the "hunch" that I think Junior has about her father.

[Marge_Innavera]

I have to disagree.  Do you remember at the final lake scene when Jack asks, "All this time, you ain't found no one else to marry?"  He's basically doing the same thing Alma is: checking out where Ennis' heart is at . . .  how he's doing.

Around when my father died & we were all dealing with it, my brother-in-law would ask, "how's your head and your heart?" Basically the same question. Very direct, and also too touchy-feely for the period (and especially to someone like Ennis). Jack and Alma's question to Ennis is basically another way of asking that. (It's obviously not literal; they of all people would be the most shocked if Ennis were to remarry.)

Sorry, can't buy that.  The closeup of her at the dinner table suggests that she resents the hell out of his being there to begin with, which is understandable. But IMO the question is much more likely a reference to a conversation with her daughters, and she knows damn well that a question about remarrying is going to throw him off-balance. I didn't read concern for head and heart into her actions, just manipulation and unresolved anger.

It's when Ennis says "once burned". The flow of Alma's activities in the kitchen stops, her face freezes, and her demeanor changes. That was the final straw.

Yes, 'once burned' does make her angry. But on the other hand, she was married to this man for 12 years and presumably knew him for a year or two before that.  And she doesn't know how inarticulate and clumsy with words he is? Hello? 

She would still have a right to be angry about that remark but give me a break -- this is a classic fight between a divorced couple with unresolved issues, and neither of them give a damn, at least for the moment, about the people in the next room. There isn't any 'victim' in this scene.

But again, I don't necessarily like Alma any less for that scene.  It keeps her character real.

[Marge_Innavera]

I think it's reasonable to suspect that she would have noticed the "shrine" in such a small space with few objects to distract attention.  It would really be very easy for her to stumble across the shirts and postcard (when you think about it).  And, given that Junior at least seems to be observant (we're shown Alma *watching* a lot in the film... in various circumstances) it seems likely that she would find the "shrine" significant... perhaps odd... and perhaps meaningful.  But, again, it's hard to imagine that she would be able to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together to understand the specific details of Ennis's situation.  I would think, though, that the "shrine" would be one more element to add to the "hunch" that I think Junior has about her father.

She does "watch" a lot -- many people who aren't very talkative notice early in life that so many people assume if you're not talking constantly you're also not watching or listening. I'd guess Alma Jr in later life becomes one of those people whose friends and family are regularly surprised by how much they've figured out.

IMO, Alma Jr is putting a lot of pieces together at this point and will eventually figure it out, but it will take some time.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Sorry, can't buy that.  The closeup of her at the dinner table suggests that she resents the hell out of his being there to begin with, which is understandable. But IMO it's much more likely that she's recalling a conversation with her daughters, and she knows damn well that a question about remarrying is going to throw him off-balance. I didn't read concern for head and heart into her actions, just manipulation and unresolved anger.

Yes, 'once burned' does make her angry. But on the other hand, she was married to this man for 12 years and presumably knew him for a year or two before that.  And she doesn't know how inarticulate and clumsy with words he is? Hello? 

She would still have a right to be angry about that remark but give me a break -- this is a classic fight between a divorced couple with unresolved issues, and neither of them give a damn, at least for the moment, about the people in the next room. There isn't any 'victim' in this scene.

I agree with you, Marge. 

[Marge_Innavera]

Now if I can just figure out who "TOoP/Bruce" is? I could have sworn I edited that post myself.   

EDITED TO ADD:  One of our moderators spotted an HTML error and thoughtfully corrected it. Thanks, Bruce!

[Artiste]

Alma Jr., I just figured out is very much like her father!!


Therefore, she knew that her father was/is a bi or gay man!!

Hugs!!

[brokeplex]

you lost me there Artiste. I do think that Jr has some of her father's traits. But I don't see that transferring into a position one way of the other about gays.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

You say: I do think that Jr has some of her father's traits.
...................

May I agree with you about that! Since she has an eye like her father, Alma Jr. saw therefore that her father was happy when he saw Jack; that seems to me true in the movie.  That is one way that she figured out that her father is an bi or gay man, it seems to me. There are other ways too!!

I must re-view the movie to see if Alma Jr. advances her body to view Jack when Jack comes to see her dad after the divorse, but her father tells him that he has to keep the kids and therefore, can not be with Jack that weekend!! Is that how she acts? She must have seen that the hug then between the two was firm, especially by Jack!! ?? Plus, how sad they (Jack and Ennis) became after her father talked to Jack!! ??
Plus, she must have heard the conversation by the two: Ennis and Jack!! Their tones of speech??
What do you think?

Hugs!!
P.S. Concerning your other remarks, I do not dare mention any comment right away, but may I say that she is like her dad, maybe in more ways than one??

[cricket99999]

Thanks brokeplex!

She must have seen that the hug then between the two was firm, especially by Jack!! ?? Plus, how sad they (Jack and Ennis) became after her father talked to Jack!! ??
Plus, she must have heard the conversation by the two: Ennis and Jack!! Their tones of speech??

She may have even heard the exact conversation, word-for-word.  For any other listener, it might not arouse suspicion.  But Alma Jr. is consistently portrayed as someone who would take note.  About her father, she is shown to be concerned, quietly observant, and understanding.  Watching Ennis and Jack that day, I believe she began to wonder about their relationship.   
 

[brokeplex]

I'm not sure about how much she perceived of her father's feelings for Jack. We really didn't see enough of her to really know. I think that Jr loved her father very much, and was jealous of other women who took an interest in him. The scene with Cassie in the bar tells us that much. Would she have been accepting of her fathers relationship with Jack. I don't think that we can know, except to say that Jr is a bright young lady,and she wants her fathers's love. Maybe she could go over that divide and embrace him as a gay man. Or maybe denial would set in like it does with many people who love gay men and women but just can't make it over that divide.

[cricket99999]

I'm not sure about how much she perceived of her father's feelings for Jack. We really didn't see enough of her to really know.

I disagree.

When I try to look at the screenwriters’ choices, it reinforces my belief that Junior knew.

I often wonder about the storytellers’ motivations for choosing this-or-that dialogue.  Is it a part of the plot, or is it character development, or is it a red herring, or is it simply a mistake; an extraneous bit that never managed to get edited out but in the end contributes nothing.

In this film, nearly every detail seems to contribute something of value. 

And what would be the value of Junior being jealous of Cassie? 

It isn’t important to the story. 

She *is* jealous, of course, but that’s not a valuable piece of the plot here; she’s portrayed as such simply because it’s fitting—she’s not getting private time with her father.   

But to me the point of the scene is to show her connection to him.  She observes him quietly.  She's concerned, and she's wondering.  She strongly suspects the truth about him, even though he's not the 'type' at all.   

To me, there’s only one way the writers would include the scene with Junior and Cassie.  It’s not to show that Junior is jealous (most children of divorce are, under such circumstances) or that Cassie is pushy or Ennis can’t dance (we knew these things).  It’s to show that Junior knows (or will, by the end of the trailer scene).  As Cassie drags Ennis to the dance floor, she’s studying them because she’s questioning his sexuality and trying to understand. 

We see this because we’re meant to sense her growing awareness about her father.  Isn’t that the reason writers chose to show the deep connection between father and daughter?   Why would they do this, except to suggest Junior’s awareness of her father’s secrets?       

[brokeplex]

The writers wished to show the deep connection between Ennis and Jr in order to flesh out his Ennis's private life that allows the viewer to have more sympathy with Ennis. That certainly worked on me, when I saw that Ennis clearly loved and was loved by his daughters my opinion of him began to modify.

Whether or not Jr suspects that Ennis has a romantic connection with Jack is not explored. Jr simply is a bright young lady who loves her father, and doesn't really want to see him marry Cassie.

Had the writers wished to show that Jr had suspicions about Ennis's sexuality, they would have created dialog where Jr brings up the subject of Jack to Ennis's face and then they would discuss his friendship with Jack.  Alma knew about Ennis's sexuality after seeing Jack kissing Ennis, and later the dialog reflected this in several places, including the "Jack Nasty" scene. 

[Artiste]

Thanks criket99999, and thanks brokeplex!!

You say this cricket concerning Alma Jr. then at the time Jack comes to see Ennis who wrote about his divorse, but Ennis can not see him since he has his two girls that weekend: She may have even heard the exact conversation, word-for-word.  For any other listener, it might not arouse suspicion.  But Alma Jr. is consistently portrayed as someone who would take note.  About her father, she is shown to be concerned, quietly observant, and understanding.  Watching Ennis and Jack that day, I believe she began to wonder about their relationship.   
 

...

May I agree with you on that. I think that Jr. was that way very much like her father!! Indeed, I am thinking that she is maybe bi, even!! At least, a decent straight person, respecting her father and Jack as bi or gay men!!
...

Brokeplex, you think that maybe Jr. is bi??

Hugs, hugs!!

[brokeplex]

Sorry Artiste, but you are taking a head first leap of logic off  a high dive into the shallow end of the swimming pool. I think I'm going to not follow you there.

[Katie77]

Brokeplex, you think that maybe Jr. is bi??

Hugs, hugs!!

YOU have got to be bloody joking.......

[Artiste]

Thanks Katie77, and thanks brokeplex!!

You two make me laugh, with a happy smile!!

No, I am not joking! And wish you and brokeplex, and others to anwser to that, please.

Think about it, at least!!

Hugs! Hugs!

[LauraGigs]

Indeed, I am thinking that she is maybe bi, even!! At least, a decent straight person, respecting her father and Jack as bi or gay men!!

I would go with your other choice: "a decent straight person". 

There are a lot of them out there, Artiste!

[Katie77]

I would go with your other choice: "a decent straight person". 

There are a lot of them out there, Artiste!

Ditto Laura......I too am getting sick of his reference to decent straight people.....as if they are in a minority......

[brokeplex]

You two make me laugh, with a happy smile!!

And you make me smile and laugh too Artiste, just stay away from diving into the the shallow end of the swimming pool !

Merry Christmas Artiste!

[serious crayons]

Artiste, please keep in mind that roughly half of the members of BetterMost are straight. And most if not all consider themselves decent without that requiring further clarification. So please be tactful in these references.

Laura and Katie, I don't want to speak for Artiste, but perhaps he is referring to the fact that, in Ennis and Alma Jr.'s time and place, straight people who are understanding of and sympathetic to gays actually may BE in the minority.

[moremojo]

Artiste, please keep in mind that roughly half of the members of BetterMost are straight. And most if not all consider themselves decent without that requiring further clarification. So please be tactful in these references.

Laura and Katie, I don't want to speak for Artiste, but perhaps he is referring to the fact that, in Ennis and Alma Jr.'s time and place, straight people who are understanding of and sympathetic to gays actually may BE in the minority.

I do think straight people who are understanding and sympathetic to gays are in the minority, at present. Homophobia is commonplace worldwide, and outside the post-industrialized West often takes virulent, violent form (and continues to do so even in the West, though becoming rarer and now actively decried as barbaric).

Even many liberal and progressive straight people in the West do not so much actively support and pursue gay rights, as they are indifferent to the lives and aspirations of gay people. A lot of this is just due to human nature. A straight person caught up in their own life is not likely to expend a lot of time and energy in trying to understand and involve themselves in the gay world--naturally, they actively pursue their own interests. This is neither necessarily right nor wrong, it just is (it's like that old saying of how one cannot really understand the life of another before having walked in that other person's shoes). There are exceptions, of course, but these remain exceptions (seen against the vast proportion of the larger population).

[delalluvia]

I disagree.

When I try to look at the screenwriters’ choices, it reinforces my belief that Junior knew.

I often wonder about the storytellers’ motivations for choosing this-or-that dialogue.  Is it a part of the plot, or is it character development, or is it a red herring, or is it simply a mistake; an extraneous bit that never managed to get edited out but in the end contributes nothing.

In this film, nearly every detail seems to contribute something of value. 

And what would be the value of Junior being jealous of Cassie? 

It isn’t important to the story. 

She *is* jealous, of course, but that’s not a valuable piece of the plot here; she’s portrayed as such simply because it’s fitting—she’s not getting private time with her father.   

But to me the point of the scene is to show her connection to him.  She observes him quietly.  She's concerned, and she's wondering.  She strongly suspects the truth about him, even though he's not the 'type' at all.

Why can't the scene be simply about showing how Junior is a daddy's girl?  We hadn't really seen that up until that scene.  And that despite being a daddy's girl, she's also Alma's daughter picking up such phrases as 'not the marrying kind'  and while that can be a very very 1960's small town euphemism for gay, there are plenty of cowboys who didn't and don't marry.  That doesn't automatically make them gay or in the closet.  Otherwise as a single straight woman who isn't interested in marrying, I might be called a lesbian since I don't seem to be the 'marrying kind'.

Or more importantly, perhaps the scene is there to show how Cassie is actually trying to get Ennis to marry her, that she is serious about him, very much in love.  That would make her pain more real in the scene in the bus stop diner when Cassie and Carl come in and she spots Ennis.  And it's more reasonable that a scene that deals with an emotional issue like marriage would occur between two women - Cassie and Junior - than a scene where Cassie is trying to get the taciturn Ennis to open up about why he won't marry her.

There are many reasons why that that scene is there.  Doesn't have to be the setup for the end.  The ending is more about Ennis anyway than Junior, IMO.  She doesn't have to have some sort of epiphany about her father to make the scene work.  She can be just a simple girl happy that her daddy understands her love and is finally making time for her, no matter what.

That scene is Ang's idea of a happy ending for Ennis.  In the short story, his children are such nonentities they are only mentioned in passing, not actually part of the story, so there is not even a hint that Ennis' kids have a clue.  So I tend to think of the ending scene as more about Ennis' growth than any realization by Junior.

[Katie77]

That scene is Ang's idea of a happy ending for Ennis.  In the short story, his children are such nonentities they are only mentioned in passing, not actually part of the story, so there is not even a hint that Ennis' kids have a clue.  So I tend to think of the ending scene as more about Ennis' growth than any realization by Junior.

Very well written, and makes a lot of sense, particularly your summary of the last scene....definately shows where Ennis has come to and possibly where he was heading....that scene is about Ennis, definately......

[Artiste]

Thanks all of you!!

Ineedcrayons, you say this: Artiste, please keep in mind that roughly half of the members of BetterMost are straight. And most if not all consider themselves decent without that requiring further clarification. So please be tactful in these references.

Laura and Katie, I don't want to speak for Artiste, but perhaps he is referring to the fact that, in Ennis and Alma Jr.'s time and place, straight people who are understanding of and sympathetic to gays actually may BE in the minority.




...
May I reply that I never did qualify in numbers, or if one is straight or gay or otherwise who is decent!!  Even if half or more, if not less, are straights on Bettermost, why limit freedon of speech??

[...]

I do find Jr. a decent person, yes, in the movie! Is there something wrong with that? I hope not!

[...]
...
However, I think that Alma Jr.  in the movie is a decent person as she does accept that her father is bi or gay; she is certainly not dumb nor homophobic since she helps and asked her father to her weding!!
...........................................

Replies from you and from all, gays, straights, or others are welomed,

hugs!!



Edit by Penthesilea:
This post has been edited because it was way off topic for the greatest part. The parts which were moved are marked with [...] and can be found here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,8804.msg300398.html#msg300398

[serious crayons]

Ineedcrayons, you say this: Artiste, please keep in mind that roughly half of the members of BetterMost are straight. And most if not all consider themselves decent without that requiring further clarification. So please be tactful in these references.

Laura and Katie, I don't want to speak for Artiste, but perhaps he is referring to the fact that, in Ennis and Alma Jr.'s time and place, straight people who are understanding of and sympathetic to gays actually may BE in the minority.
...
May I reply that I never did qualify in numbers, or if one is straight or gay or otherwise who is decent!!  Even if half or more, if not less, are straights on Bettermost, why limit freedon of speech??

Freedom of speech is almost never limited on BetterMost. My point was simply that if half of BetterMostians are straight, and you imply that decent straight people are unusual, many of the people you are writing to are likely to take offense. It's a matter of courtesy, not censorship. If that was not your meaning, then fine.

[moremojo]

Freedom of speech is almost never limited on BetterMost. My point was simply that if half of BetterMostians are straight, and you imply that decent straight people are unusual, many of the people you are writing to are likely to take offense. It's a matter of courtesy, not censorship. If that was not your meaning, then fine.

I take your point, Katherine, but I think we can assume that BetterMostians are hardly representative of the culture at large, and straight BetterMostians can hardly be taken as examples of the majority of straight people, whether in America or worldwide.

[Jeff Wrangler]

The ending is more about Ennis anyway than Junior, IMO.  She doesn't have to have some sort of epiphany about her father to make the scene work.  She can be just a simple girl happy that her daddy understands her love and is finally making time for her, no matter what.

I agree with you, Del, especially that last.

I'm afraid I tend to see the idea that Junior knew her father was gay, and even more was OK with it, as wishful thinking. But then I also come to this question from a life experience of having had a friend, now dead five years from metastatic lung cancer, who had a daughter who had a very difficult time accepting that her father was gay. And she didn't have to figure it out for herself, she was told (perhaps at an age too young to understand, but nevertheless she was told). And this wasn't small town Wyoming thirty years ago, this was the East Coast in the 1990s. They weren't reconciled until near the end of my friend's life. Thankfully, he and his daughter did have a good relationship for the last few years of his life.

[serious crayons]

I take your point, Katherine, but I think we can assume that BetterMostians are hardly representative of the culture at large, and straight BetterMostians can hardly be taken as examples of the majority of straight people, whether in America or worldwide.

Sadly, Scott, I agree. Originally, I was only trying to explain to Artiste why some straight people here would take offense at the implication that decent straights are an anomaly. Unfortunately, as we agreed earlier, when it comes to empathy toward gay people, they may be -- certainly in many cultures, if not all. Nevertheless, it's nice to be tactful when making negative generalizations about a group and directing one's comments to members of that group.

I would guess most people here understand those points and we can move on.

[LauraGigs]

But then I also come to this question from a life experience of having had a friend, now dead five years from metastatic lung cancer, who had a daughter who had a very difficult time accepting that her father was gay.

That's such a sad story, Jeff.  And I can certainly see why it would leave a strong impression.   

Alma Jr though?  Although I have a hard time believing she knew her dad was gay until after the timeline of the film, I do think she would be okay with it.

I guess what leads me to believe this is the fact that she was still very loving toward him despite the fact that he hurt her mother.  Between the swingset scene and Thanksgiving, Junior knows that Ennis could be pretty turdish toward Alma Senior, but doesn't let that sway her love for her dad.  I don't think knowing he was gay would sway her love, either.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Alma Jr though?  Although I have a hard time believing she knew her dad was gay until after the timeline of the film, I do think she would be okay with it.

Yes. I really should clarify that I meant to say it strikes me as wishful thinking that she knew by the time of the final scene of the movie and was OK with it by that time. Sorry for my lack of clarity!

She may well have come to know "after the timeline of the film" and have been accepting of it. Fortunately for my friend, even his daughter came around eventually. 

[Artiste]

Ineedcrayons, you do not take away this (below and other lines from others) why, even if it is not the subject, but you take my words away often? Why you think for me? You even put words like they are mine, but are not!

Why accept this then: I'm afraid I tend to see the idea that Junior knew her father was gay, and even more was OK with it, as wishful thinking. But then I also come to this question from a life experience of having had a friend, now dead five years from metastatic lung cancer, who had a daughter who had a very difficult time accepting that her father was gay. And she didn't have to figure it out for herself, she was told (perhaps at an age too young to understand, but nevertheless she was told). And this wasn't small town Wyoming thirty years ago, this was the East Coast in the 1990s. They weren't reconciled until near the end of my friend's life. Thankfully, he and his daughter did have a good relationship for the last few years of his life.
...

I see nothing against his words, as I use them as an example... as I do the same as he does. If he can add something like that, then why I can not? Because I am a gay man?

You bewilder me! There is nothing like truth, I say! To those who take offence, that is their problem, and should have the decentcy to tell me about it! I am decent enough to accept their words when I find them offensive! Most times or all times, it is just not understading! You taking me away my freedom of speech to me, is like being anti-gay to me!

I await your answer with open arms so far,

hugs!!

[Katie77]

Even if Alma Jnr did not understand......even if she was not OK with it......it would not necessarily mean that she  did not love her dad......kids are like parents, they love unconditionally....kids dont realize they do, until they are parents themslves usually...but they do love their parents, no matter what.

Lets not make  a martyr out of Alma Jnr.....she was 19 by the end of the movie....at that time in her life, she was completely wrapped up in Kurt and the life she was gonna have with him....she loved her Daddy, of course she did, but the visit to his trailer was more about would he come to her wedding, than to come for just a father daughter visit...by his lack of knowledge about Kurt, it was obvious that these visits were not too regular.

And if she knew or thought he was gay, she would have kept it a secret...she would have maybe even felt embarrassed about it....cant blame her for that.....Ennis did the same thing and he too was in some ways embarrassed about it.

Kids of 19 dont do a lot of soul searching about their parents, not to say they dont worry about them, they get involved in their own lives and their own friends...Alma Jnr was probably no different..........

[Artiste]

Katie, you say: And if she knew or thought he was gay, she would have kept it a secret...she would have maybe even felt embarrassed about it....
............................................

May I agree with you that Jr. if she knew that her father was bi or gay, would have kept it a secret, likely??
It is a question one can pose if she did mention it to anyone, maybe?
...

But why she would have felt embarassed? Please explain!
...........................................

You really think that a kid of 19, does not soul search about their parents? Some do, I say! Especially, in the situation she is in, as her father was divorsed, may I say!

Awaiting your news and from others,

hugs!

[delalluvia]

.she loved her Daddy, of course she did, but the visit to his trailer was more about would he come to her wedding, than to come for just a father daughter visit...by his lack of knowledge about Kurt, it was obvious that these visits were not too regular.

And if she knew or thought he was gay, she would have kept it a secret...she would have maybe even felt embarrassed about it....cant blame her for that.....Ennis did the same thing and he too was in some ways embarrassed about it.

Kids of 19 dont do a lot of soul searching about their parents, not to say they dont worry about them, they get involved in their own lives and their own friends...Alma Jnr was probably no different..

Agree.

[delalluvia]

Katie, you say: And if she knew or thought he was gay, she would have kept it a secret...she would have maybe even felt embarrassed about it....

if she knew that her father was bi or gay, would have kept it a secret, likely??
It is a question one can pose if she did mention it to anyone, maybe?

Why would she if she knew?  That's not exactly news that would be welcome to be spread around in those parts.  Obviously if she was told or by some miracle she figured it out herself, she would know/realize that her parents certainly had kept the secret so why would she spread the news around?

But why she would have felt embarassed? Please explain!

Because the only gay men she would have known about - had she known what being gay actually was - were the stereotypes of mincing fancy boys on TV.  She knows her father as the Marlboro Man, strong, silent, macho type.  Her boyfriend/fiance is very likely a strong macho type, as well.  Fancy boys are nothing to be proud of in societies where strong macho men are admired.  She may love her father, but like most teens, anything that detracts from a parent being perfect is an embarrassment to them.  She is still a kid after all.

You really think that a kid of 19, does not soul search about their parents? Some do, I say! Especially, in the situation she is in, as her father was divorsed, may I say!

Awaiting your news and from others,

hugs!

Many don't.  I don't put Junior up there with being very introspective.  I know others don't feel this way, but I consider Junior to be just a simple, small town, not very deep, very average blue-collar girl.

[Artiste]

Thanks delalluvia!

I just read your replies. Glad that you do. They sound good. I will reread.

For now, you say:I don't put Junior up there with being very introspective.  I know others don't feel this way, but I consider Junior to be just a simple, small town, not very deep, very average blue-collar girl.


............

I prefer to think that Jr. is indeed introspective, to which degree I do not know, in the movie... as she seems to be so to me. Does she not seem to talk about her father trying to help or especially understand the girl that her dad danced with at the bar... that one that wanted to marry divorced Ennis?? !! I forgot her name of the one who insisted to dance with Ennis; one who worked as an bar waitress, was it?? That is only one example where she helps other persons!

Awaiting your news and help on this,

hugs!!

[underdown]

Wow, this thread was supposed to be a 'Topic Of The Week', and it has been running at the box office for over 2 weeks, now.
True, it has digressed somewhat. It is obviously stirring a lot of deep emotions.

Isn't that what Bettermost is all about? Isn't the motto 'a catalyst for positive change'?

In my book, a catalyst is supposed to cause a reaction, and this topic cetainly has. If the discussion had been confined strictly to the subject, it would not achieve half as much. But there have been comments and questions moved, or deleted. (?)

Now, I am a straight male. One of the few on Bettermost. I do not discriminate against gay or bi people, nor against those for whom this topic raises deep emotions. Nor am I offended in any way. Emotions are healthy: including yours, mine, and those of anyone else who posts in response to these discussion threads.

To Artiste, this thread and the discussion of whether or not Alma Jnr was embarrassed by her Dad's homosexulality may raise the question 'why should anyone be embarrassed by someone because they are gay?' And that becomes emotional. So what? That is a valid question by a thinking person, and a natural result of the thread being a catalyst. As it should be, unless the Bettermost motto is meaningless. Why on earth that should be 'off topic' is beyond me. There were comments directed to an individual member that were deleted, but I am sure they were directed at an emotion being expressed, not to the character.

As has been suggested earlier, Alma Jnr was in a time and place where being open about her Dad's homosexulality, if she really understood it properly anyway, was dynamite. Why is it not ok to try to apply that catalyst of thought to Quebec, in the present, or anywhere else in the world, to pose a question ?
 
It is just as natural that others might react to questions like that, and the subject could raise their emotions, too.   Well ... hell, that's good, isn't it?

I could take offence that people make assumptions simply because I am straight and therefore obviously 'just like all the rest of them', but don't, because I know it is usually the bigots and people who just want to be noticed who criticise the most, and the genuinely loving who are belted with tyre irons by those people who blindly follow the carping and criticising loudmouths.

I don't know any gay men with 19 year-old daughters. It must be difficult for them to know how they think towards their Dad, although sisters are something of an insight.
I have two daughters who were 19 not so long ago, (twins) one of whom accepts me totally as I am; a straight male who loves and likes and feels, sometimes loves the wrong people, and makes mistakes. The other is critical because I am single again, thinks I embarrass her, and therefore must prefer people outside of her family.

Do you think, Artiste, it could sometimes be just as hard being a straight male?

[Artiste]

Thanks underdown!

Be assured that I am happy that you are a straight male and on here at Bettermost. I am also glad that there are some or many gay men, lesbians, bi, straight women, and others. It is indeed great to talk, each with his/her views and, details as examples when possible. I have learned much  from others here, gays and straights and others!!! And seek to continue. And I am grateful to all!! Even for times that bewilded me from some!!

You are right that Bettermost must continue to give us freedom of expression... if I read you right. I feel that it does, most of the time and at other moments, I know that I am helped and that I helped too others. May that continue... always!!

We have found ways to help each other and others. And my wish is to discover other wondrous methoeds too!!
I am sure that Bettermost also saves lives! Plus it makes us all happier somehow!!

I do not understand some of your expression, so I will reread and will try, and pose you some question, if I may?

For now, you say this: Do you think, Artiste, it could sometimes be just as hard being a straight male?
 
 
 

..............

Underdown, do you think that your daughter (like Jr. here) would know that you would be gay if you were Ennis?

To answer you underdown, it is hard for straight males, yes; harder than gay males?

Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??

Will always be happy to get your news,

hugs!

[delalluvia]

Thanks delalluvia!

I just read your replies. Glad that you do. They sound good. I will reread.

For now, you say:I don't put Junior up there with being very introspective.  I know others don't feel this way, but I consider Junior to be just a simple, small town, not very deep, very average blue-collar girl.


............

I prefer to think that Jr. is indeed introspective, to which degree I do not know, in the movie... as she seems to be so to me. Does she not seem to talk about her father trying to help or especially understand the girl that her dad danced with at the bar... that one that wanted to marry divorced Ennis?? !! I forgot her name of the one who insisted to dance with Ennis; one who worked as an bar waitress, was it?? That is only one example where she helps other persons!

Awaiting your news and help on this,

hugs!!

No, not really.  Junior didn't say anything to Cassie.  It was Cassie who initiated the conversation.  Had it been up to Junior, she probably wouldn't have spoken to Cassie about her dad at all.

[Aussie Chris]

To answer you underdown, it is hard for straight males, yes; harder than gay males?

Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??

Will always be happy to get your news,

hugs!

You know, I understand why you pose this question Artiste.  I'm a gay man too, and I completely believe that when it comes to sexuality, straight people have no clue how hard it is to live as a gay man/woman in a predominantly straight world.  A hostile world.  In fact, sometimes I can't tell you if it's a worse fate to be beaten or even murderred for being gay, or to live a lifetime where the majority of the world thinks on some level that there's something wrong with you.

But it bothers me that you answer underdown in this way.  You are right to ask this question, but I think you're being unfair.  underdown was just trying to say that straight men are not without challenges.  Maybe they're more difficult than ours, maybe they're not.  Really, who are we to judge each other?  Does this help any of our causes?

[Jeff Wrangler]

Ineedcrayons, you do not take away this (below and other lines from others) why, even if it is not the subject, but you take my words away often? Why you think for me? You even put words like they are mine, but are not!

Why accept this then: I'm afraid I tend to see the idea that Junior knew her father was gay, and even more was OK with it, as wishful thinking. But then I also come to this question from a life experience of having had a friend, now dead five years from metastatic lung cancer, who had a daughter who had a very difficult time accepting that her father was gay. And she didn't have to figure it out for herself, she was told (perhaps at an age too young to understand, but nevertheless she was told). And this wasn't small town Wyoming thirty years ago, this was the East Coast in the 1990s. They weren't reconciled until near the end of my friend's life. Thankfully, he and his daughter did have a good relationship for the last few years of his life.
...

I see nothing against his words, as I use them as an example... as I do the same as he does. If he can add something like that, then why I can not? Because I am a gay man?

You bewilder me! There is nothing like truth, I say! To those who take offence, that is their problem, and should have the decentcy to tell me about it! I am decent enough to accept their words when I find them offensive! Most times or all times, it is just not understading! You taking me away my freedom of speech to me, is like being anti-gay to me!

I await your answer with open arms so far,

hugs!!

I'm sorry, but anyone who implies that ineedcrayons is unfairly targeting someone because he is a gay man is way ... off ... base.

J.W.

[brokeplex]

True, it has digressed somewhat. It is obviously stirring a lot of deep emotions.

Isn't that what Bettermost is all about? Isn't the motto 'a catalyst for positive change'?

In my book, a catalyst is supposed to cause a reaction, and this topic cetainly has. If the discussion had been confined strictly to the subject, it would not achieve half as much. But there have been comments and questions moved, or deleted. (?)

Now, I am a straight male. One of the few on Bettermost. I do not discriminate against gay or bi people, nor against those for whom this topic raises deep emotions. Nor am I offended in any way. Emotions are healthy: including yours, mine, and those of anyone else who posts in response to these discussion threads.

To Artiste, this thread and the discussion of whether or not Alma Jnr was embarrassed by her Dad's homosexulality may raise the question 'why should anyone be embarrassed by someone because they are gay?' And that becomes emotional. So what? That is a valid question by a thinking person, and a natural result of the thread being a catalyst. As it should be, unless the Bettermost motto is meaningless. Why on earth that should be 'off topic' is beyond me. There were comments directed to an individual member that were deleted, but I am sure they were directed at an emotion being expressed, not to the character.

As has been suggested earlier, Alma Jnr was in a time and place where being open about her Dad's homosexulality, if she really understood it properly anyway, was dynamite. Why is it not ok to try to apply that catalyst of thought to Quebec, in the present, or anywhere else in the world, to pose a question ?
 

I could take offence that people make assumptions simply because I am straight and therefore obviously 'just like all the rest of them', but don't, because I know it is usually the bigots and people who just want to be noticed who criticise the most, and the genuinely loving who are belted with tyre irons by those people who blindly follow the carping and criticising loudmouths.

I don't know any gay men with 19 year-old daughters. It must be difficult for them to know how they think towards their Dad, although sisters are something of an insight.
I have two daughters who were 19 not so long ago, (twins) one of whom accepts me totally as I am; a straight male who loves and likes and feels, sometimes loves the wrong people, and makes mistakes. The other is critical because I am single again, thinks I embarrass her, and therefore must prefer people outside of her family.

Do you think, Artiste, it could sometimes be just as hard being a straight male?

Thank you 'Underdown' for your excellent insights. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I especially agreed with your observation that this web site can be a "catalyst for positive change". This is a very important comment.

It is my opinion that when any thought earnestly delivered in the spirit of the web site is censored, it must be done so reluctantly and conservatively.

Since Bettermost is a diverse community by any measure - different ages, genders, orientations, occupations and life experiences, ideologies, and geographical locations - we have a unique opportunity to learn from each other.

We do not learn from each other if we shut each other down. It is very easy to cry: " I am offended !" or,  "I am bored - you are off topic !"

'Underdown', you indicate that you could take offense at some of the assumptions made about straight men, but you chose to not do so. Very good, I thank you for that reasonable and logical approach to the dialog. I am a gay man who has had experiences similar to Ennis and Jack in my life. Sometimes I am frustrated at reading some of the posts from well meaning and caring Bettermostians who make assumptions that are way off base in regard to the lives of the characters in Brokeback Mountain. But I do not let that stop me from reaching out, we just have a long way to go in our dialog. That is OK, with age has come a bit more patience on my part.

HUGS!

[Artiste]

Thanks underdown, thanks dellavia, thanks AussiChris, thanks Jeff Wrangler, thanks brokeplex, and thanks to all others too!!

Firstly, may I search to continue to reply to underdown. After a long night of dreams plus one dream which was the last in which there was strained as well as new searching, I just re-read your comment. I understand it better now, I think and appreciate it. I would also like your replies to my questions, please when you can. You say: I don't know any gay men with 19 year-old daughters. It must be difficult for them to know how they think towards their Dad, although sisters are something of an insight.
I have two daughters who were 19 not so long ago, (twins) one of whom accepts me totally as I am; a straight male who loves and likes and feels, sometimes loves the wrong people, and makes mistakes. The other is critical because I am single again, thinks I embarrass her, and therefore must prefer people outside of her family.

Do you think, Artiste, it could sometimes be just as hard being a straight male?


........................
Underdown, you do say that you do not know of any gay man with 19 years-old daughters. Since you do have two 19 years-olds, they do reactdiffently to you, even if you are straight (not bi nor gay or otherwise). You figure that one acts better towards you (now single), but that the other is negative ( critical). May I ask if these two were always like this? Or is it because you are now single?

If I understand you, then an 19 years-daughter can think!! And even accept certain  situation(s) such as divorse (in your case I do not know if it is separation or divorse or something else, but may I use the word divorse?). But, even if they are twins, the other is critical about you being now single, is that her main reason?

So do you figure that Alma Jr should be critical of her father or  accepts her father for being an hetero-in-his-own way, an bi, or a gay man??

Like others on Bettermost, you may ask me any questions, any time. I will try to reply, and if I don't, please do not be shy to re-ask, as often as you like... in order for me to create replies which will determine possible an anwser with details. At times, it take months or years to get an answer, to find it!! That's life, since it's a search for bettermost... among details, facts, one life's and/or other lives!!

To answer you to your last question, I have to live in fear everyday as a gay man; I do not know if you understand that? Tell me please.

You being straight, must have better chances at life, not being in fear for one's life because you are straight, yes or no, or???

Of course, straight men have hard times, and maybe that is one reason why straights and gay men could, should or must try to help each other?? As in Bettermost, may I suggest.

.................................................................................................

I will re-read your answers all of you and reply, as soon as possible. Be assured that I am grateful for them, as I glanced and am happy concerning these. It makes me think and enjoy life better. I must now go to work... create paintings.

...........................................................................

Ineedcrayons, please be assured too that I am happy with you and your thoughts and help. I do not understand all the moderators who take away a word, words, sentences, text or even a subject of mine, but at times, I re-read why or my writings and do understand, but at other times I do not know why; anyhow, I guess that it is like a court case?? To me, to others and surely to you too (from what and how you act and react to me), we all like freedom of expression!! At least, let us all become better humans trying to help each other and one self!! We do succed at times, in many wondrous ways, here on Bettermost! Again, thanks ineedcrayons! And hugs!
...............

Hugs to all!!

..............................................................
....................................................................................

[Penthesilea]

I'm sorry, but anyone who implies that ineedcrayons is unfairly targeting someone because he is a gay man is way ... off ... base.

J.W.

Just for the records: It wasn't Katherine who edited a post yesterday, it was me and I made it clear it was me by saying so in bold letters.

Nothing was cencored, nothing was deleted, nothing was added; only a part of a post was moved, that's all. Since  I added the link to where this part is to be found now, it is just one click away for everybody who is interested to read it.

I hope this information settles the matter.

[serious crayons]

Thank you, Jeff and Penth.

Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??

Actually, more than half of all straight people DO have to worry about being attacked or murdered -- not because they are straight, but for another demographic reason: because they are female.

I have no idea how the dangers to the two groups compare. Obviously there are more women than gay people, so statistically I believe there are more hate crimes against women. On the other hand, there is more homophobia out there than sexism -- and homophobia is more hostile and potentially violent -- so gay people are probably at greater risk in proportion to their population. On the other hand, gay people can't necessarily be instantly identified as gay, whereas women usually can ... It gets complicated.

But the point is not comparing the risk of one or the other. My point is that many attacks against women -- rapes, beatings, murders, etc. -- are hate crimes. As a society, we're so used to them we tend to forget that.

[underdown]

A few answers in progress. But it will take a while as it will be between 'phone calls at work. 

[Artiste]

Thanks ineedcrayons, and thanks Penthesilea!!

Penthesila, glad that you do clarify and add what was missing!! Qu'est-ce sera, sera, as the song says,: whatever will be, will be, since ineedcrayons and you will do your part and I will too to seek freedom for everyone (in the world, may I add), and most certainly here on Bettermost because we help each other in hard and in good times!! We even laugh, cry and hug!!!
....................................................................

Ineedcrayons, I am surprised by what you say, but I should not be. I totally agree with you. So, I do say that gays and straights can help each other... somehow in wondrous ways to create peace and joys!! As life is worth living that way!! You say: Quote from: Artiste on Yesterday at 10:40:56 PM
Straight do not have always the fear of getting killed because they are straights??

Actually, more than half of all straight people DO have to worry about being attacked or murdered -- not because they are straight, but for another demographic reason: because they are female.

I have no idea how the dangers to the two groups compare. Obviously there are more women than gay people, so statistically I believe there are more hate crimes against women. On the other hand, there is more homophobia out there than sexism -- and homophobia is more hostile and potentially violent -- so gay people are probably at greater risk in proportion to their population. On the other hand, gay people can't necessarily be instantly identified as gay, whereas women usually can ... It gets complicated.

But the point is not comparing the risk of one or the other. My point is that many attacks against women -- rapes, beatings, murders, etc. -- are hate crimes. As a society, we're so used to them we tend to forget that.



[
/i]
Ineedcrayons, re-reading you, I have no idea why I am surprised about your sentence, stating that more than half of people on earth do fear as straights since you are females, as your statement was surprising I guess. Yesterday, a young women (14, 15, or 16 years of age) was killed by her father, because she was refusing to wear her muslim head scarf; that happened near Toronto, Canada, in an democratic country! So, I understand her fears too, since her father obliged her brother and sister to see if she did wear that religous clothing at her high school, but she brought other garments which she wanted and loved to show her beautiful hair (at school)! Such murders are happening too often, as far as I am concerned. and is one reason why we need to educate. How?

She deserved to live her own life, it seems to me.

Quebec is called lately by some as negative society, since freedom loving persons are demanding that such actrocities stop, and that such anti-freedom groups of immigrants entering be educated. Laws in Canada are also being rediculed and not used by some with such so-called religious anti-women, anti-gay, and anti-freedom actions!!
And, I am not only talking about islam!

Why do I mention this here? In the movie, it seems to me that Alma Jr. is freedom loving, as she accepts her father as he is: hetero as for one marriage only with a woman he married, bi or gay, and/or otherwise!!  May I express that we need more Alma Juniors in our democratic societies and in other countries throughout the world?? !! She is freedom loving, surely??

Awaiting your news, and that of all,
hugs!!

[TOoP/Bruce]

Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

I think there are hints to that effect in the script, but I don't think that can be inferred from the story.  I think we see Alma as a female version of her father, laconic and somewhat cryptic, and as someone who loves Ennis despite the fact that he would never be nominated for father of the year.  My experience is that many children are uncomfortable about their parents' sexuality in general and despite any suspicions, would probably prefer not to ask.  When they eventually find out, it usually matters less than most people would think. 

My parents weren't perfect, but I still love 'em, even though they are no longer together.

[Artiste]

Thanks TOoP/Bruce!

You sure say lots here, as well as simply precise! I must re-read and think!!
You comment: Quote
Did Alma Jr. know Ennis was gay?

I think there are hints to that effect in the script, but I don't think that can be inferred from the story.  I think we see Alma as a female version of her father, laconic and somewhat cryptic, and as someone who loves Ennis despite the fact that he would never be nominated for father of the year.  My experience is that many children are uncomfortable about their parents' sexuality in general and despite any suspicions, would probably prefer not to ask.  When they eventually find out, it usually matters less than most people would think. 

My parents weren't perfect, but I still love 'em, even though they are no longer together.
 
 

...
To reply to you TOoP/Bruce, you make me think when you say this way as described with such details that Alma jr. is an female version of her father!! Indeed, I think she is... I guess, and in many ways: she thinks a lot, like her father?? She also has an eye like him? At least, in the movie! Likely not in the book, as you say. But why this accent in the movie via Jr.? To make us think that she knew that her dad was gay, and/or for other reasons?? Like for issues too??

Hugs!

Hugs!

[underdown]

Maybe a TOTW thread should be titled, for instance,  'Did Alma Jr know Ennis was gay ... and how would you relate this question to your own life and thoughts?' etc.

It would seem in keeping with the spirit of Bettermost that this is implied anyway 'though that might be a tad long for the header.
Of course freedom of expression is ok, so long as it doesn't cut across the right of another to be free of attack or, indeed, cause a reaction which might harm the person who inadvertently posts something that gets a little personal.

I read a post yesterday that seemed to be an emotional response, and it disappeared. Maybe it, too, was moved somewhere. We must accept that emotions can run high, and moderators have a tough job balancing that. That's why they are here.

Artiste, I will try to answer your questions, but do not want to be a 'know all' or be 'off topic' here, so will post them in 'Artistes questions'.

Hopefully without going too far 'off thread': ....

I am sure that, if Alma Jnr knew her Dad was gay, and loved him so much that she was open about it, Ennis would have been the first to warn her, because he knew the danger of the attitude in that time and place that she could be subjected to.

Katherine makes a very valid point about straight women being in danger. I have lived in a few cities, and there is a distinctly more prominent fear among women in Sydney. A lot of that is more talk than actual reported occurance. As far as discrimation against, or attacks on, gay people, I can only speak from observation in Sydney, which has a prominent gay population, and other parts of Australia where I have lived.

My general observation is that the gay community here is not reported to suffer bashings and murder just for being gay. Of course, it might occur and not be reported. It did happen many years ago, but even then was rare. There seems, nowadays, a very open feeling between gay and straight people. With extremely few exceptions, I have not, since I was very young, heard any criticism of gay people from women. Quite the reverse. Straight women love gay men. Nor have I heard very much from straight men, for that matter. Here, they are very accepting. And it is quite an open issue for young people. A 19 year old girl might not mention her Dad's homosexuality to anyone unless asked, but would not fear for her father's safety, and would probably not mind talking about the subject in general amongst her friends. My own daughters have no problem talking about it, and I am sure that if I were gay, they would have this same attitude.

xRob

[serious crayons]

Katherine makes a very valid point about straight women being in danger.

Just to clarify, my comments about the threat of hate crimes to women also apply, of course, to gay women.

[LauraGigs]

Likely not in the book, as you say. But why this accent in the movie via Jr.?

You're asking, in other words, why was there such an emphasis on Alma Jr in the film? What was the function of her character? 
That's actually an excellent and interesting question.

I'm at work and so must be brief, but I think Alma Junior represents redemption and hope for the character of Ennis. Proulx's short story introduction touches on this (the fact that Ennis had Junior to fall back on). The film simply develops this further.

Ennis had lost Jack, and therefore lost any chance to improve that relationship — to "love Jack better". But as a father, he still has time to build his bonds with his children — giving and receiving the joy those bonds offer.

Through most of his life, his children were a financial burden; but in the end, they were his emotional salvation. Ennis would indeed be "nothin, nowhere" — rotting alone in his trailer — if it weren't for the new generation he created who loved him.

-----------------

^I'm talking here about the end of the film and beyond, but the question of her character's function *earlier in the film* is also very intriguing.

[Artiste]

Thanks underdown!

You do not know that I am not surprised by your comment, as I felt that you are honest and ernest!!
But, (excuse my butt), I am totally (or nearly so) surprised by some of your comments herein, especially about gays life downunder.

You stay this: am sure that, if Alma Jnr knew her Dad was gay, and loved him so much that she was open about it, Ennis would have been the first to warn her, because he knew the danger of the attitude in that time and place that she could be subjected to.

Katherine makes a very valid point about straight women being in danger. I have lived in a few cities, and there is a distinctly more prominent fear among women in Sydney. A lot of that is more talk than actual reported occurance. As far as discrimation against, or attacks on, gay people, I can only speak from observation in Sydney, which has a prominent gay population, and other parts of Australia where I have lived.

My general observation is that the gay community here is not reported to suffer bashings and murder just for being gay. Of course, it might occur and not be reported. It did happen many years ago, but even then was rare. There seems, nowadays, a very open feeling between gay and straight people. With extremely few exceptions, I have not, since I was very young, heard any criticism of gay people from women. Quite the reverse. Straight women love gay men. Nor have I heard very much from straight men, for that matter. Here, they are very accepting. And it is quite an open issue for young people. A 19 year old girl might not mention her Dad's homosexuality to anyone unless asked, but would not fear for her father's safety, and would probably not mind talking about the subject in general amongst her friends. My own daughters have no problem talking about it, and I am sure that if I were gay, they would have this same attitude.


.........................

May I disagree about some of your points, and agree with others??  I had a friend who went to see for months his friend who went to lived /workin your country. They enjoyed it, the gay life there; like a new found freedom, since many gays felt that and did that! But then the government via the police closed the gay places down and arrested gays. Yes, that was years ago. I want to know if really gay life is better since then?? How?? Pray so.

Is gay marriage (man with man, or female with female) accepted in your country now??

Canada, England, France, and Spain, accepts gay marriages now, I think. But the USA does not, with few exeptions somewhat. However, your straight marriage (man with female) was accepted?

Concerning youth, they seem to accept gays, from what I see on the internet, where sites lets us comment about the BM movie! But (excuse my butt again), more and more kids are murdering adults! Why?
One just killed an adult a few weeks ago, here! Plus, many other cases, even in these quiet areas (and by that I mean in an democratic country where there is no civil war right now, like in Iraq, or other countries where there is no civil liberties!!

Yesterday, an muslim youth was murdered by her father since she did not were her religious clothes at the high school, in an civilized country: Canada! And there are many other cases of such in this country, and surely in yours, in the USA, England, France... by such extrimists.

With the influx of such so-called extimist religions, now saw a revived movie about Aurore, since her father and step-mother tortured her to death; that was a real case and these so-called parents just spent a few years in jail. But the child's life... is but no more; where is her civil rights and liberties when the whole town, religious authority and law officer neglected this girl, even if they knew that two previous children were murdered too!! To me, this is all over again, giving a blind eye, like in the WWWII days where many countries sent gays to Germany to death camps like over a million, llike for milllions of jews, and like too many children who were said to be retarded or unwanted!!! All freedom loving persons, must fight for our free societies and free laws, by wondrous means!! Right?

To-day, an male lawyer here said on TV that he was over 4 years having to fight in court because a man of 43 years now, said that this lawyer had sex with him as a youth; he says that this cost him millions of $; that the court (I forget how to name that part of justice) had too much added blame for nothing as well as police on trump up like charges; so since he worked and believe in justice, he is now deceived... a lot!! It seems to me that maybe he went to court because he is a gay man (or is not a gay, but thought to be or used as a ruse by criminals)!!

I fight now against criminals here too. Even was told by a lawyer that I should move elsewhere! These criminals used over 8 policemen to hassle my mother and I so far this year!!

Far from here, in a another city where I fought for over 20 yuears a criminal who became an unwanted neighbour,
I had to give him my house... since police, no more local lawyers, neither city would help. The whole neighboujood, which was classy and decent, is now in crack housesafter another. Even, onechild in Grade 6 was hanged in the school bathroom sincehe refused to take drugs! Governments and police did nothing but lipservice!! There now in that city kids galorekill other kids and even adults, some said they do for the fun!! To see one die!! There is another city similar in the USA that is likewise; so a study is being made is to why this happens!
In that one,a gay man was murdered, and one of the two murderers got away with it, since the jury believe him! Was that jury homophobi? The gay guy was born thereand a decent person to all!!


If Alma Jr.] knew orsensed (likely) that her father was a gay person, then so could have blasted her father, killed him or have him murdered, or beaten up, and luckily she was intelligent(to my point of view) and accepted her dad no matter if he was or is hetero, bi, gay or otherwise!!!

Much said and not much said...

awaiting your news,

hugs!

[underdown]

Just to clarify, my comments about the threat of hate crimes to women also apply, of course, to gay women.

Please excuse this being off topic.

In this country (Australia) the majority of crimes of physical attack against another person seem to be those committed by men against their wives or defacto partners (with alcohol as a major factor).
Most of this is not reported to police, but is well known by community services authorities, doctors, friends and (thus) media. There are also increasing numbers of cases reported of the abuse of children, quite often committed by a defacto male against his partner's child, but sometimes by both parents.
I think that community attitudes are changing with better communication, as people become less ignorant of gay matters, and more informed about male/female abuse. Ignorance of gay matters led to unfounded fear, or homophobia. Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive. I don't think any 19 year old would consider gay men at high risk here and now, compared to women in a bad marriage or defacto relationship. Years ago, they might have.

Rob

[Artiste]

I tried to answer at length a bit, but it disappeared all of a sudden. Will try tomorow, since I think a lot about if Jr. knew about her dad being gay!

Might be the cold.

Hugs! Keep warm under(underdown) and over (ineedcrayons)!! Ha! Ha!

Hugs! Hugs!

[Aussie Chris]

In this country (Australia) the majority of crimes of physical attack against another person seem to be those committed by men against their wives or defacto partners (with alcohol as a major factor).
Most of this is not reported to police, but is well known by community services authorities, doctors, friends and (thus) media. There are also increasing numbers of cases reported of the abuse of children, quite often committed by a defacto male against his partner's child, but sometimes by both parents.
I think that community attitudes are changing with better communication, as people become less ignorant of gay matters, and more informed about male/female abuse. Ignorance of gay matters led to unfounded fear, or homophobia. Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive. I don't think any 19 year old would consider gay men at high risk here and now, compared to women in a bad marriage or defacto relationship. Years ago, they might have.

Um Rob, is this supposed to sound as condescending as it does?  You seem to be suggesting that the fear women and gays feel is somewhat unfounded because any reported violence has been beaten up or exaggerated?  Are you suggesting that it's not really as dangerous as we think?

[moremojo]

Through most of his life, his children were a financial burden; but in the end, they were his emotional salvation. Ennis would indeed be "nothin, nowhere" — rotting alone in his trailer — if it weren't for the new generation he created who loved him.

Thank you for this beautifully written explication, Laura.

[underdown]

I did say 'Please excuse this being off topic' Chris, so a response would be better somewhere else.
But I don't know where, so if it is moved, that's fine ... I would totally agree.

No, that last post was not supposed to sound condescending, and I'm sorry if you took it that way.

'Not really as dangerous as we think' depends on how a person perceives danger.
I don't pretend to know how others think about it, and certainly don't suggest that there is no reason for anyone to fear, be they gay or straight, male or female. The point was that the attitude of a few who are self righteous towards gay people can promote fear in many other straight people who might otherwise respect the fact that we are all human beings. Such a general, ignorant (as in lack of understanding) attitude would then be 'somewhat unfounded'. That does not imply that I think that the fear gay people feel is, also, unfounded.

The threat women feel from straight men has a diffent cause, and I was not suggesting that it is unfounded because reported violence is beaten up or exagerated. There has been an increase in abuse of women and children by straight males, and I am old enough to have observed that, even if I don't know all the reasons. There have been reported some very serious abuses of women and children by straight males, and I have to assume that they are by straight males because they are mostly either sexual attacks or committed by males in a hetorosexual relationship. I know it is not a true analogy with homophobia, however, again, it is the minority that infects the majority, and hence the observation 'Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive'. Of course, straight males do not suffer the physical abuse generated against women and children, nor the physical and psychological abuse directed against gay people. But they do suffer greatly from generalisations about the motives and behaviour of straight males, and it is very demeaning to be assumed just as much, or nearly as much, a risk as those males who grab the headlines with their disgusting behaviour. It is even harder because they are expected to, and do, take it without complaint, and not defend themselves.

Just an aside. I have had many gay and bi friends over the years whom I love and respect. I have also had many straight female friends whom I love and respect. And it has nearly always been mutual.

I won't do the (hugs) thing....  I am straight, after all.
But I do care.

Rob.

[moremojo]

I just had a thought that perhaps has been touched on elsewhere without my awareness. But I occurred to me that even Alma herself (the senior one) might not have "known" Ennis was gay. I'm thinking back to the Thanksgiving confrontation--the concern over Ennis being alone and the hope for him to remarry, along with the "Jack Nasty" rebuke. The concern over remarriage could suggest a perception on Alma's part that Ennis might be straight, were it not for the fishing trips with "Jack Nasty"--the implication here could be that Alma might see Jack as the one steering Ennis onto a "deviant" path, but that he himself is not intrinsically "deviant".

If this is the case, it could complicate our understanding of Alma Junior (or anyone else in Riverton) possibly realizing Ennis's gayness. Insofar as Junior is aware of Jack and his presence and impact on her father's life, she could see Jack and his relationship with Ennis as an aberration in Ennis's existence.

[Artiste]

Thanks underdown!

Why not the hugs!??

It is not kissing a gay man or a gay women!!

You surprise me. Please explain!

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks moremojo! And thanks to all too!!

You say: Alma might see Jack as the one steering Ennis onto a "deviant" path, but that he himself is not intrinsically "deviant".

.....................

Gay lives were seen then as indeed deviant, and still is so viewed as that by many, even in our civilized countries;
let us all (gays and straights and other freedom loving persons) remember that they even imprisoned that famous English writer in England; plus to-day some presidents of even europen countries call gays deviants (one or two in the news did this year); and, we must never forget that muslims and other so-called religious countries murder gays to-day in line ups (even inChina I think?)!!

Yes, I think that many, if not the majority or near that, of the population of our civilized countries (USA, Canada, Engalnd, France...) do think that gay men and gay women are deviant!! ??

I note that yesterday, a prominant local lawyer, who was charged for allegedly having sex with a young man and so he fought that for nearly five years with millions of $ and  with the world famous lawyer that Sir Black had in the USA lately!!  But he had been charged with over 40 counts! And he won his case yesterday, since the young man now 43 changed his testimony during the court! But mother calls that, is finding the lawyer outrages (word like you use deviant, I find! And even to-day this noon, she cries that out again!!) I do not know if that lawyer is a gay man, but he says on TV news that he has lost respect for the crown's office and how they do bussiness, plus that too about the police!! It seems obvious to me that much of the population, including some in the courts and the police are anti-gay. Is that so you way, anyone your way?

It seems obvious too to me, that even if Alma Sr. considers Jack deviant, that she is not only seeing Jack as the devil (for lack of a better word) but also crasy in every way in rendering her former husband also as crasy or deviant, since he separated from her and since he will not re-marry either her or another woman??


Hugs!

[LauraGigs]

The concern over remarriage could suggest a perception on Alma's part that Ennis might be straight, were it not for the fishing trips with "Jack Nasty"--the implication here could be that Alma might see Jack as the one steering Ennis onto a "deviant" path, but that he himself is not intrinsically "deviant".

I've always had a problem with the idea that Alma was "goading" or "baiting" Ennis into a fight with that remark. Her tone here is concerned (only turning into rage with the "once burned" reply). This puts their conversation in a whole new light. And it's completely consistent with the ignorance of the time concerning homosexuality (even these days -- remember the Gene Shalit review saying Jack was a "sexual predator"?)

Anyway, it's fascinating! I think you're totally on to something here.

[brokeplex]

Please excuse this being off topic.

In this country (Australia) the majority of crimes of physical attack against another person seem to be those committed by men against their wives or defacto partners (with alcohol as a major factor).
Most of this is not reported to police, but is well known by community services authorities, doctors, friends and (thus) media. There are also increasing numbers of cases reported of the abuse of children, quite often committed by a defacto male against his partner's child, but sometimes by both parents.
I think that community attitudes are changing with better communication, as people become less ignorant of gay matters, and more informed about male/female abuse. Ignorance of gay matters led to unfounded fear, or homophobia. Now there is a fear of straight men, generated by the reported actions of the abusive. I don't think any 19 year old would consider gay men at high risk here and now, compared to women in a bad marriage or defacto relationship. Years ago, they might have.

Rob

I think that you have raised an important issue here. I can't comment on Australia other than to say I would love to visit the country. But I will comment on the increasingly popular trend in the US to characterize all men as aggressors and therefore dangerous.It appears to me that the wrongful actions of a few have lead to perceptions that are unfair and in the long run dangerous.

[serious crayons]

I think that you have raised an important issue here. I can't comment on Australia other than to say I would love to visit the country. But I will comment on the increasingly popular trend in the US to characterize all men as aggressors and therefore dangerous.It appears to me that the wrongful actions of a few have lead to perceptions that are unfair and in the long run dangerous.

Underdown, brokeplex and others interested in this subject, may I suggest starting a new thread about it elsewhere? It's not connected to Alma Jr. and Ennis at all (as you've politely noted, Rob), and in fact it's not even connected to the mission of the Open Forum, which is to discuss the movie and story.

I'm sure the subject could generate lots of interesting conversation, including from people who aren't following this thread and therefore don't know it's going on. This topic might fit better in Anything Goes. If you do decide to start a new thread elsewhere, feel free to post a note about it here so those following this thread will know where to find it.

Artiste, I'd like to suggest that you do the same with your comments concerning the recent crimes and court cases that you've found disturbing. That sounds like a good topic for a conversation on the Current Events forum, or perhaps on your blog.

At BetterMost, we like to be easygoing about posts that occasionally stray off topic, but some of the conversations on this board of late are so distant from the topic, and have become so in-depth and prolific, that they are doing a disservice both to the "Alma Jr./Ennis" topic as well as to the conversations themselves, which might attract interest from lots of BetterMost members who won't know to look for them here.

[Phillip Dampier]

You are right that Bettermost must continue to give us freedom of expression... if I read you right. I feel that it does, most of the time and at other moments, I know that I am helped and that I helped too others. May that continue... always!!

We have found ways to help each other and others. And my wish is to discover other wondrous methoeds too!!
I am sure that Bettermost also saves lives! Plus it makes us all happier somehow!!

Artiste, with great respect to you, I wanted to let you know that we do strive to permit as much freedom of expression and the chance to allow some topics to wander a bit off topic, but we have to balance that tolerance with the impact of off-topic messages derailing entire threads.

BetterMost has a large number of forums covering a wide variety of topics and issues.  To allow readers the opportunity to make the best use of our community, we ask those who write messages try to respect what each forum was designed to cover.  This forum, the Brokeback Mountain Open Forum, is for discussions directly relating to Brokeback Mountain, the story/movie and what it means and how it impacts on our lives.

Unfortunately, some of the topics that have appeared in this forum have absolutely nothing to do with the story at all.  While occasional off-topic comments are not a problem, when there are repeated instances of people posting messages that basically derail a thread's intended purpose, the moderator here may move those comments to a different forum, or move them to that person's personal blog in Our Daily Thoughts, especially when they are about one's personal life experiences.

Truthfully, more people will read those kinds of comments in Our Daily Thoughts than will see them here, and it also allows people focused on the story to remain focused on those issues and not get sidetracked.

We are a community and we all have to work together to make this place work.  We ask everyone to help us out by thinking carefully before posting a message that wanders completely off-topic, and consider where that message would best belong.  It helps get those messages read by people interested in those topics, and it makes everyone else happy by keeping things in the proper place.

I hope that clears up this issue.

[Artiste]

Thanks Phillip Dampier!

I do not agree with you on that, even if I want to do so. And will explain further, for now your saying is this:
Artiste, with great respect to you, I wanted to let you know that we do strive to permit as much freedom of expression and the chance to allow some topics to wander a bit off topic, but we have to balance that tolerance with the impact of off-topic messages derailing entire threads.

BetterMost has a large number of forums covering a wide variety of topics and issues.  To allow readers the opportunity to make the best use of our community, we ask those who write messages try to respect what each forum was designed to cover.  This forum, the Brokeback Mountain Open Forum, is for discussions directly relating to Brokeback Mountain, the story/movie and what it means and how it impacts on our lives.



...................

Phillip and others: May I reply that we have that before and at fiest it worked on other threads!! But then we became limited by other threads and by some moderators!! Unfortunately!! And when I have hard subjects, I noticed that no one even dared to answer, because most persons are unfortunately afraid, yes like the ones on the BM movie.

If oyou, moderators and others on Bettermost, have noted, we like a bit of off-subjects, since we try to relate that the movie somehow, fortunately!!  That should remain the ONLY way to do so, for now. We feel free this way! Why kill a happy bird who was unhappy, may I suggest?? !!

Hugs! I awainting replies of yours an that of others!! Why kill Bettermost, when we are now happy using it and we all learn this way wondrous ways??  The BM movie and story, touches many things, you all know that, right?? Issues are important to us, and need to be writtien, detailed and to each his own to become happy, even gay, and help others too!! Why do you use the word tolorence? We want freedom, not anti-gay words nor anti-women words, bnor anti-children words... right?? Computor isjumping... so I am posting without coreecting...

hugs to you and to all! And will corect later somehow... if I made a mistake in wording or expression.

[cricket99999]

I'm way late, but want to weigh in about Ennis missing work to attend Junior's wedding.

It doesn't have to be so black and white.  She most certainly can invite him, most of us invite people to special events we know have no chance of showing up, for whatever reason:

"Daddy I'm getting married.  Can you come give me away?"

"Oh honey, I gotta drive down in the Tetons."

"OK, well, when you're back why don't you come by and see our new place and the pictures of the wedding?"

That would seem to be more of a realistic dialogue and a compromise both would find acceptable given each other's circumstances.

That would be a bummer of an ending... it wouldn't work.  We need to see that Ennis is changing.

And for what it's worth, I *don't* think he quit a job to go to the wedding.

He opted out of a weekend of work, is how I saw it, based on what I've seen of roundups and cattle drives.

Where I lived, the cattle were rounded up twice a year, and each cattle drive was a one-shot thing, for that weekend only.  They were herded up to the mountains as weather was warming up.  Then they were driven downvalley end of summer.  It was only about forty miles, if that.  Cowboys were hired on a prn basis (or whatever that is called, in the ranching industry).  Some worked on ranches full-time, but others were cowboys only those two weekends per year.  If they could work that weekend, fine.  If not, fine.  They would likely be offered work the next time. either way.  Or offered work the next weekend, in a different valley.

I believe the script was written to suggest this type of roundup, alluding to it being just a weekend drive.  Ennis doesn't say "my boss really needs me to work that weekend." Instead he says something like  "there's a roundup in the Tetons I'm working that weekend."

[delalluvia]

I'm way late, but want to weigh in about Ennis missing work to attend Junior's wedding.
That would be a bummer of an ending... it wouldn't work.  We need to see that Ennis is changing.

No, we don't.  The story doesn't show Ennis changing, why should the movie?  It's a tragedy.  It's meant to be a bummer.

And for what it's worth, I *don't* think he quit a job to go to the wedding.

He opted out of a weekend of work, is how I saw it, based on what I've seen of roundups and cattle drives.

Where I lived, the cattle were rounded up twice a year, and each cattle drive was a one-shot thing, for that weekend only.  They were herded up to the mountains as weather was warming up.  Then they were driven downvalley end of summer.  It was only about forty miles, if that.  Cowboys were hired on a prn basis (or whatever that is called, in the ranching industry).  Some worked on ranches full-time, but others were cowboys only those two weekends per year.  If they could work that weekend, fine.  If not, fine.  They would likely be offered work the next time. either way.  Or offered work the next weekend, in a different valley.

I believe the script was written to suggest this type of roundup, alluding to it being just a weekend drive.

When did it allude to a weekend?  I haven't looked at a calendar - and neither did Ennis - but was it actually said the wedding was on a weekend?

And if it was just piecemeal weekend work, that even makes it worse for Junior to ask him to give up a weekend's work if that's all the work he's been able to get. 

[Phillip Dampier]

Phillip and others: May I reply that we have that before and at fiest it worked on other threads!! But then we became limited by other threads and by some moderators!! Unfortunately!! And when I have hard subjects, I noticed that no one even dared to answer, because most persons are unfortunately afraid, yes like the ones on the BM movie.

If oyou, moderators and others on Bettermost, have noted, we like a bit of off-subjects, since we try to relate that the movie somehow, fortunately!!  That should remain the ONLY way to do so, for now. We feel free this way! Why kill a happy bird who was unhappy, may I suggest?? !!

But here is the problem.  A lot of people are unhappy with the amount of off-topic side issues raised in these threads which have absolutely nothing to do with the story.  They disrupt the entire discussion, and we've had complaints raised about this.  Nobody is telling you that you cannot raise any issue you wish, but it must be done in the appropriate place.  If I wrote, for example, a message in one of our online game forums discussing the fact I think global warming is a serious problem and we need to ban all cars because of it, there would be a lot of people wondering why in the world I am talking about global warming in an online game message.  Then we'd probably get 15 people replying arguing about whether global warming is a problem, what kind of car I am driving, why I wrote such a message in the first place, and is it censorship to remove it... everything discussed EXCEPT the original point of the thread - to play an online game.  So it basically ruins the game.

I don't think it is too much to ask everyone to consider the audience when replying to messages.  I always try and ask myself, "is this the right place for my message on this subject?"  It's not the right place if I were to write five paragraphs on global warming and then in the very last sentence, tell people I rolled the dice and got two "six's" and whose turn is it now. 

Hugs! I awainting replies of yours an that of others!! Why kill Bettermost, when we are now happy using it and we all learn this way wondrous ways??  The BM movie and story, touches many things, you all know that, right?? Issues are important to us, and need to be writtien, detailed and to each his own to become happy, even gay, and help others too!! Why do you use the word tolorence? We want freedom, not anti-gay words nor anti-women words, bnor anti-children words... right?? Computor isjumping... so I am posting without coreecting...

I agree that all of these issues are important.  Discussions about the story itself and its impact are quite appropriate in this forum.  Discussions about broader gay and lesbian issues should be raised in our Safe Haven forum.  If there is a political issue about anti-gay or anti-women matters, that belongs in the Current Events forum.  And issues that focus on your own life and experiences are best placed in your personal blog in Our Daily Thoughts.  That's where we all talk about what is going on in our daily lives and the problems we face.  I realize English is not your first/primary language, so if you have any questions about where a message would work best, just send me a note (or any of our moderators) and we'll be happy to guide you. It makes things better for everyone, and I am certain people will appreciate your effort.  I thank you!

[Artiste]

Thanks Phillip!

You say this: I agree that all of these issues are important.  Discussions about the story itself and its impact are quite appropriate in this forum.  Discussions about broader gay and lesbian issues should be raised in our Safe Haven forum.  If there is a political issue about anti-gay or anti-women matters, that belongs in the Current Events forum.  And issues that focus on your own life and experiences are best placed in your personal blog in Our Daily Thoughts.  That's where we all talk about what is going on in our daily lives and the problems we face.  I realize English is not your first/primary language, so if you have any questions about where a message would work best, just send me a note (or any of our moderators) and we'll be happy to guide you. It makes things better for everyone, and I am certain people will appreciate your effort.  I thank you!
...

Phillip, I agree with you with your two first sentences, but I do not do so nescessarily with your other ones, concerning placing in the right place, if I read you right! To those who do not like at all discussions about gay and lesbian issues on any other places but Current Events or Safe Heven, that is their problems and should not be ours (ours as were are gay and lesbians, bi- or otherwise)! Even though we do and could try to place those subjects in there: Current Events and Safe Heven!! Gay and lesbian subjects, to me, touches everyday lives, everyone (even straights or otherwise), and all (or nearly all... at least) issues about life; so, we want that freedom on Bettermost, totally, since to moi and to many others in the world from what I see on Bettermost by many members and non-members, that is what Annie says by her book: freedom to be gay, lesbian, other sexual orientations too, plus she does accent (or at least via the BM movie), female issues such as being a woman and/or a wife, and likely much more (I can not say that much on that since I a male person), and I assure everyone and certainly females on Bettermost that I learned greatly surprisingly from ladies on Bettermost concerning their issues whether if I liked them or not (as subjects which I started too later on), so I opened myself now to that reading their openness to us gays and to other femme issues. I repeat that we can not only stray with such issues of gay and female issues (if I may use that term) by limiting ourselves to Daily Thoughts!! By the way, in Daily Thoughts: we are too limited there; because one can only have each member one question there and I accept that as it gives a chance to every member (or most?); we need better still maybe that method (Daily Thoughts) ((nothing against it's moderator)) as I feel that we can increase its effectiveness somehow (I think that it used to be very populor and may still be??), so that all member can add there, plus all who want more that one question be posed can being a member!!

I must go as the gaz co. man is here. Maybe I will add or explain better later...

Awaiting your news,
hugs!!

[Phillip Dampier]

Why don't we put this up for a vote so we know what thread participants think.  Should discussions in these TOTW threads be limited to the subject of the thread or should they be allowed to become more broad-themed and conversational.

I'll have one of the mods create a poll and make it its own thread, so we can discuss this issue there and let this topic get back... on topic.

[Artiste]

Thanks Phillip!

After finishing urgently washing mother's floors, I am quickly reading your reply. I do not think that is the solution, yet herein: Inserted Quote
Why don't we put this up for a vote so we know what thread participants think.  Should discussions in these TOTW threads be limited to the subject of the thread or should they be allowed to become more broad-themed and conversational.

I'll have one of the mods create a poll and make it its own thread, so we can discuss this issue there and let this topic get back... on topic.
 

..............................

My immediate reaction to that is that that will closet case us, maybe too much!! After all, the BM movie and Annie's book opens the closet, not only gay closets as well as women issues, and about violence or peace, but educates too in many wondrous ways like bigots, maybe murderers even to stop or not start killing humans, etc., in reaching times!! My main point here is that straights as well as gays (and others), we all need to be educated, and help each other!! Right?? I think it better for those who are interested to enlarge a topic... should be given that choice, and those who prefer to restrict it will surely right away do, or later on adapt, or keep on being ignorant (for the lack of a better word, if I may say, and that is no offence to any person, as I do not understand certain things never neither, but some I learn about and become not only knowledgeable with another here or with others but participate much more in life's wonders and joys!!). So, I prefer that we find many ways to help each other, as we already have started that, but guess we need more??

Note that Alma Jr. could and in some ways is like her mother; she is also luckily learned as she was loved by her father caring for her, plus she educated herself to love her father even if she or not knows that her father prefers another man (Jack)... or if and when he is in pain, she helps: she listens!!

I welcome you and others too to say what you want too,

hugs!! Must rush... see you and all later!!

[brokeplex]

Why don't we put this up for a vote so we know what thread participants think.  Should discussions in these TOTW threads be limited to the subject of the thread or should they be allowed to become more broad-themed and conversational.

I'll have one of the mods create a poll and make it its own thread, so we can discuss this issue there and let this topic get back... on topic.

I personally am not the least bit embarrassed or upset at being admonished if I  stray off topic. And for myself I will certainly try to stay strictly on topic for the future.

But that does beg the question, how strictly does one define "on topic"? And who does the defining? 

[serious crayons]

Brokeplex, we mods are in the process of putting the finishing touches on a poll that will ask BetterMost members how they feel about this on-topic issue. It will present several gradations of on-topic strictness, ranging from one extreme to the other with a few options in between, and people can state their preferences.

It will be fun to see how people feel about this!

In the meantime, you needn't worry about the occasional brief detour. We all do that from time to time. It's more extreme cases of topic-wandering that have led some of us to examine the issue more closely.

[brokeplex]

sounds good to me.

[Artiste]

Freedom so far on bettermost, and may it continue!!

Freedom so far on bettermost, and may it continue!![
Hugs!!