Author Topic: TOTW 18/07: Do you think classic cowboy icons like the "Marlboro Man" were proto  (Read 58529 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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Hello my fellow BetterMostians!  :)

This week I'm happy to announce that we have again a topic which was suggested by a BetterMost resident. And the same goes for next week  :D. But I won't tell anything about next week yet. You'll have to come back to this place and see yourself then.

This week's topic was suggested by Amanda (atz75). Thank you Bud!


Do you think classic cowboy icons like the "Marlboro Man" were prototypes for the way Ennis looks?



The topic centers not exclusively around the Marlboro Man, but he is a very good example, since he is so highly iconic.  James Dean in Giant may be another one. But there are surely more figures which may have played some role in the inspiration of the way Ennis is visualized. If you think of a character from movies, TV or other sources (like ads), please add them here (pics would be awesome, but are naturally not required).
To give you an impression, I'll post some pics of the Marlboro Man and James Dean in the next two posts.

Also we'd like to know if the influence also goes the other way round: did BBM make you rethink or reevaluate classic icons of the cowboy or the western?



Offline Brown Eyes

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Hey Bud!

Thanks so much for your interest in this topic and for choosing to feature it!   :-*

Yes, I definitely think there's a lot to be said about ways that BBM makes audiences think about the genre of the western and the classic image of the cowboy.  And, when I first started thinking about this topic I was mostly focusing on the image of Ennis and this immediate connection that's always been in my mind between Ennis and the Marlboro Man.

This is most striking to me at the very beginning of the movie.  The fact that one of the first things we see of Ennis is him smoking a cigarette. But, the fact that he's unwilling to finish even one cigarette... pinching it off and saving it in his pocket... wanting to save it for later, etc. seems very significant.  There seems to be a lot said here about issues of class and rural poverty lurking beneath the surface of iconic images such as the Marlboro Man... in addition to issues of sexual difference.

One thing that's so striking to me about Ennis is how his character embodies the idea that the demeanor of a classic, tough, stoic, loner-type cowboy can be simultaneously the demeanor of a closeted gay man who is constantly in fear of the the "people on the pavement" who might be able to detect his secret. 

I think a discussion of Heath's methods in portraying Ennis here are also very important.  I recall interviews with Heath where he discussed very conscious decisions about his posture, gait in walking, etc. to convey a sense of Ennis's repression and internalized anxiety.

And, with the James Dean connection... I think it's just so striking how much Heath resembles James Dean to begin with.  So, I wonder how much of the casting decision here was very deliberate.  And, so I'm really wondering how does James Dean's image or mystique inform the character of Ennis?

Anyway, I'm really hoping that this will turn into a discussion about visual aspects of BBM and how it relates to other famous cinematic images or advertising images, etc.  So, like Chrissi said, the Marlboro Man is just one example of an image that seems to relate to BBM, and hopefully folks will be able to bring their own examples here to this thread.  And, in presenting these comparisons with other media images, I'd really like to hear what people thing those other sources mean... or how those other sources may help in expanding an understanding of BBM.



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Katie77

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I've got to agree with both of you on the similarities and likenesses to the Marlboro Man and James Dean.

If they are who,Heath used to form his peronna of Ennis, well, he did a very good job of it.

He also captured the innocence of James Dean....although so very handsome, there was no sign of vanity, the pouting bottom lip....shows a kinda of "sulking" for the hard life that was dished up to him, the seriousness on his face, shows a maturity beyond his years, capturing the fact that he had to grow up fast to survive on his own.

I dont know if anyone else felt this, but when the scenes of Ennis and Alma were on their honeymoon, skiing, Ennis was so completely different in appearance and personality than he was as the Ennis we met on the mountain.He was not the cowboy we had just met on Brokeback, he was a typical young man of the sixties, enjoying a holiday in the snow....maybe this was used to show how worlds apart his beginning with Jack was, compared to his beginning with Alma was....

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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Brown Eyes

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I've got to agree with both of you on the similarities and likenesses to the Marlboro Man and James Dean.

If they are who,Heath used to form his peronna of Ennis, well, he did a very good job of it.

He also captured the innocence of James Dean....although so very handsome, there was no sign of vanity, the pouting bottom lip....shows a kinda of "sulking" for the hard life that was dished up to him, the seriousness on his face, shows a maturity beyond his years, capturing the fact that he had to grow up fast to survive on his own.

I'm hoping that some more-skilled Heathens than I can jump in here with some quotations from Heath about his thoughts on acting style and method for portraying Ennis.  And, I wonder how much of the Dean connection was Heath's idea and how much was some kind of deliberate casting decision.  Chrissi pointed out that the STS book specifically mentions James Dean in Giant as visual inspiration for one particular shot of Ennis.  It's on page 60 of the script in STS- "ENNIS stands in the back of a hay truck, looking much like James Dean in Giant.  Throws open bales of hay out to the cows."  I don't know how much of the Dean comparison comes simply from the fact that Heath looks a lot like James Dean... or if there's something more interesting that the filmmakers are trying to do with this visual comparison.

Here's one photo of James Dean that kind of blows my mind in how much it looks like Heath in general (and not even specifically Ennis).

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/3047747-3f8.jpg" border="0" />


Quote
I dont know if anyone else felt this, but when the scenes of Ennis and Alma were on their honeymoon, skiing, Ennis was so completely different in appearance and personality than he was as the Ennis we met on the mountain.He was not the cowboy we had just met on Brokeback, he was a typical young man of the sixties, enjoying a holiday in the snow....maybe this was used to show how worlds apart his beginning with Jack was, compared to his beginning with Alma was....

I agree that Ennis changes a lot in appearance as time goes on.  I find it interesting that he abandons his felt cowboy hat after the Brokeback summer... and we later see him mostly in the straw cowboy hats and that sort of unattractive fisherman-style hat (or at least that's what it looks like to me).

So, if these relatively "glamorous" images of cowboys (the idealized Marlboro Man figure, James Dean, etc.) are models for young-Ennis... what, if any are the visual models or inspiration for older-Ennis?

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline delalluvia

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For the original question:

No.  They all dress like that in real life.  This is more art imitating life and not the other way round.

During one screening, I took my arch conservative redneck from West Texas friend and when I asked how realistic the costumes were, he drew my attention to the fact he was wearing the same tan jacket as Ennis.

Offline Brown Eyes

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For the original question:

No.  They all dress like that in real life.  This is more art imitating life and not the other way round.

During one screening, I took my arch conservative redneck from West Texas friend and when I asked how realistic the costumes were, he drew my attention to the fact he was wearing the same tan jacket as Ennis.

Well, I have to disagree with this.  I think that these images are carefully cultivated... especially when you look at the Marlboro Man examples.  They're not only carefully dressed... they're carefully posed in certain postures.  Often with the head down, etc.  I'm sure each of these ad shots took hours and hours to groom.  And the ad campaign that went on for so long evolved and changed with the times.  And, when you look at how perfect James Dean's hair is below his hat... you know that's not natural.

And, with film, the tradition and genre of the western has a complex history visually.  I think it does a dis-service to the BBM filmmakers and to Heath as an actor to think that there was no thought given to precedents and certain traditions.

To me the interesting thing is how to think about the iconic images (like the Marlboro Man and James Dean) as deliberate acts of constructing a certain image of masculinity.  And, then to think about how Ennis's character is conceived of either fitting directly in with the conventions of those images or de-stabilizing those conventions some how.  Or how Ennis possibly uses the image of an iconic cowboy as a mask to hide behind.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline delalluvia

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Well, I have to disagree with this.  I think that these images are carefully cultivated... especially when you look at the Marlboro Man examples.  They're not only carefully dressed... they're carefully posed in certain postures.  Often with the head down, etc.  I'm sure each of these ad shots took hours and hours to groom.  And the ad campaign that went on for so long evolved and changed with the times.  And, when you look at how perfect James Dean's hair is below his hat... you know that's not natural.

And, with film, the tradition and genre of the western has a complex history visually.  I think it does a dis-service to the BBM filmmakers and to Heath as an actor to think that there was no thought given to precedents and certain traditions.

To me the interesting thing is how to think about the iconic images (like the Marlboro Man and James Dean) as deliberate acts of constructing a certain image of masculinity.  And, then to think about how Ennis's character is conceived of either fitting directly in with the conventions of those images or de-stabilizing those conventions some how.  Or how Ennis possibly uses the image of an iconic cowboy as a mask to hide behind.




Guess I'm not getting you atz???  The original question was:

Do you think classic cowboy icons like the "Marlboro Man" were prototypes for the way Ennis looks?

My answer was no.  They are not prototypes for Ennis' looks.  Instead, real cowboys were/are the prototypes for the Marlboro Man icon images.  That's why the icons look similar only better than the real thing.

Offline Katie77

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Was just thinking about the James Dean connection and wondered if it also is a bit of real life immitating art....or visa versa....

In a lot of stories written about James Dean since his death, there is the hint or connotation that he was gay, or at least had gay tendencies....so is the real life James Dean, the rugged, shy, sulky young man hiding his (supposed) gay secret, even more like Ennis, not only on the outside, but on the inside too....
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection