TOTW 18/07: Do you think classic cowboy icons like the "Marlboro Man" were proto

[delalluvia]

Sure, there's a difference in their lifestyles. But what I said still holds. Burning the candle at both ends means working too hard and not getting enough sleep (the idiom refers to burning the candle because it's dark -- that is, late at night and early in the morning) and there's no question that was one of Heath's issues.

Was he working too hard or just having trouble dealing with his roles so that he couldn't sleep?  Or, in the end, was he actually physically recovering from being sick with a cold/pneumonia?

Naw, I don't associate 'burning the candle at both ends' with someone just working too hard.  Otherwise, anyone could fit that role,

Boy howdy that orthodontist is burning the candle at both ends...reminds me of James Dean, eh?   How about you?

IMO, such people are also playing too hard.  James Dean wasn't working hard when he died.

[injest]

Was he working too hard or just having trouble dealing with his roles so that he couldn't sleep?  Or, in the end, was he actually physically recovering from being sick with a cold/pneumonia?

Naw, I don't associate 'burning the candle at both ends' with someone just working too hard.  Otherwise, anyone could fit that role,

Boy howdy that orthodontist is burning the candle at both ends...reminds me of James Dean, eh?   How about you?

IMO, such people are also playing too hard.  James Dean wasn't working hard when he died.

good point.

[serious crayons]

Naw, I don't associate 'burning the candle at both ends' with someone just working too hard.

Well, you may not. But that is what the term is generally understood to mean. Here's one definition, from :"GoEnglish.com: pocket English idioms":

Burning The Candle At Both Ends ( working for many hours without getting enough rest ... )

"burning the candle at both ends" You are burning the candle at both ends when you are working long hours without resting. Example: "Would you like to go to a party tonight?" Reply: "I can't. I'm way too tired. I've been burning the candle at both ends all week."

Your energy is burning down, and you are growing more and more tired, when you are burning the candle at both ends. Example: "Are you still working day and night?" Reply "Not anymore. Now I work nine hours a day, and I get a good sleep almost every night. No more burning the candle at both ends."

Burning the candle at both ends is not a healthy life because you are working from early to late and not getting enough rest. Example: "Ever since this new project started I have been burning the candle at both ends. I can't take much more of it."

Otherwise, anyone could fit that role,

Boy howdy that orthodontist is burning the candle at both ends...reminds me of James Dean, eh?   How about you?

Sure an orthodontist could be burning the candle at both ends. Why not? But what does that have to do with James Dean? I don't particularly think of James Dean as burning the candle at both ends. I don't know why this has become a point of contention anyway. I just said Heath was burning the candle at both ends. And he was, if he was only getting a few hours of sleep a night because he was so embroiled in his work, as pretty much all accounts agree.


As for the Marlboro Man image, it seems we really are overthinking this, or trying to stretch the idea further than it was meant to stretch.

I don't understand this idea....that someone in an ad agency uses an image that is COMMON in an area and suddenly the IMAGE is what is being copied by the people that the ad guy copied!!

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone is saying this. Yes, regular people dress like that. And no, of course they aren't imitating an ad.

movie guy gets script: needs to dress a poor country boy....does some investigating...

"hat, carhart jacket...ok that is what poor country boys wear....let's get Ennis a carhart and a hat"

Yes. Again, I don't know that anybody's saying poor country boys don't really dress like that.

But Jess, this is what people who live in town think, and they don't get it. My point was that it isn't an image. Images are Hollywood as is James Dean. One puts on 'airs' in an attempt to garner 'image'. Some are simply what they are. Your son and his (boyfriend) come to mind. They aren't adopting or imitating or costuming. They are just them, just like Ennis and one Jack Twist. Of course some out there will attempt to lump them into fake image and ads, but that is okay cause', well,  they just don't get it.

If I understand this correctly, this is exactly what I'm saying. You might say that regular people don't keep images in mind when they choose what to wear. (Though I could even potentially debate for that -- most regular people are fully aware of traditional cultural images when they pick their clothing -- otherwise, why do people from the West, or people who want to look like people from the West, wear cowboy hats, for example? Because they're simply the most comfortable headwear? Or because they're how people in Western culture traditionally dress? But never mind.)

But if you are saying that Ang Lee -- who doesn't just live in town, he's from Taiwan, for Pete's sake -- directed this movie without ever considering cultural icons like the Marlboro man and other cowboy images, well then, I disagree. To me, cultural icons and images are, if not the whole point of the movie, at least one big big big point of it. The movie, in my mind, is about how cultural assumptions -- of what cowboys are like, of what gay men are like -- are not always as true as people think. So how is it possible to make that point without using the visual trappings of those cultural assumptions? They could have had Ennis dress throughout the whole movie like he was dressed when he was laying pavement, but that wouldn't have worked as well.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Completely OT, but in rereading [Diana Ossana's essay "Climbing Brokeback Mountain"] just now, I just noticed that she says Larry took The New Yorker issue with the story upstairs, and came back down in 15 minutes. Did he take an Evelyn Wood speed reading class, or what??

He probably didn't have to read the entire story to realize it had great potential for a screenplay.

[serious crayons]

He probably didn't have to read the entire story to realize it had great potential for a screenplay.

Well, she says that when he came down he told her it was the best short story he'd ever read in The New Yorker. Which implies he finished it. Plus, it was only then (according to her account) that she brought up the idea of a screenplay.

[Brown Eyes]

I think there's a very real degree to which "cowboy" or ranch clothing is fully based in fashion or image.  There are even notable differences between types of cowboy/ranch clothing region to region and especially when we think about chronological differences.

I mean, a cowboy hat in Texas in 1930 might be very different from a cowboy hat in Wyoming in 1983.  Things evolve regionally and for practical reasons.  Economic factors play a huge role too.  A rich ranch owner in Texas with fancy clothes and an expansive amount of personal property would look very different than an impoverished ranch-hand in a depressed central Wyoming town.  They would both arguably be "real cowboys", but they would look entirely different.

Ranch cowboys wear different clothing than rodeo cowboys.  Jack wears Wranglers (because he identifies as a rodeo cowboy) and Ennis wears Levis.

There are both aesthetic and practical aspects to all of these decisions.

Wearing a cowboy hat in Pittsburgh now (or probably ever) would be seen as very costume-y.  Whereas a cowboy hat in Denver doesn't seem out of place.

I think when it comes to contemporary dress, there's a huge awareness of the fact that cowboy clothing bears certain iconic cultural ideas and connotations.

And, we don't need to stick simply to the two examples of the Marlborough Man or James Dean.  These were meant to be starting-point examples to think of ways that Ennis (and Jack, etc.) may have been constructed visually.  The examples that Chrissi provided from My Own Private Idaho / River Phoenix are also relevant here.  That's another entirely different way to visualize/contextualize a more contemporary idea of the new west (compared to something ostensibly more timeless like the Marlborough Man probably aspires to be). 

There's no question that Ennis and Jack are constructed images. There's no way they sprang fully formed purely out of one source or simply by grabbing some random wardrobe selections with no real thought behind those selection. We know that the kinds of clothing (colors, etc.) that Ennis and Jack wear are very deliberate. They aren't real people and they were created by a large group of people (Proulx, Lee, McMurtry, Ossana, Ledger, Gyllenhaal, etc.)... and none of these creators are cowboys.  They are basing their ideas about cowboys on role models... because that's really what all artists do (whether they're writers, actors or painters). And one factor in constructing these characters is an awareness of a type of realism or "real cowboys" (but, since there isn't simply one kind of "real cowboy" it's hard to pinpoint exactly what that means).  But, just as much a factor are other artistic, cinematic and cultural depictions of the west.  Those two things aren't in conflict.

Katherine's question earlier about why specifically cowboys are the protagonist vehicles for the story of BBM (instead of accountants or, say grocery store owners in Riverton, etc.) seems very important.

To me the idea of questioning a cultural icon or adding a new interpretation to the idea of a cultural icon like "the cowboy" makes BBM extremely interesting.

[Artiste]

I did meet Avedon as we were in the same photo making, and I know that he does NOT AT ALL look nor dress nor act like ANY Malboro Man!! He loves creating imagery of men as gay: femme. Wish I would have asked him why he took that pic of that male cowboy jock, which is TOTALLY unusual for Avedon to do!! ?? 

Maybe gay men... as I do (even if I act very masculine), dream of being a Marlboro Man!!

Surely Ennis and Jack wanted to be such Marboro Men!! But changed somewhat...

hugs!!

[serious crayons]

And, we don't need to stick simply to the two examples of the Marlborough Man or James Dean.  These were meant to be starting-point examples to think of ways that Ennis (and Jack, etc.) may have been constructed visually.

That's exactly right. It's not like the costume crew from BBM busily thumbed through old magazines or looked at old TV commercials so they could specifically copy The Marlboro Man without paying any attention to how people dress in real life. It's that, on a cultural level, both Ennis and the MM are images representing something larger, something more than just how country boys in the West happen to dress. In both cases and others, that style of clothing and behavior means something to people across the country and in other countries, and the makers of BBM were deliberately referencing those meanings.

There's no question that Ennis and Jack are constructed images. There's no way they sprang fully formed purely out of one source or simply by grabbing some random wardrobe selections with no real thought behind those selection. We know that the kinds of clothing (colors, etc.) that Ennis and Jack wear are very deliberate. They aren't real people and they were created by a large group of people (Proulx, Lee, McMurtry, Ossana, Ledger, Gyllenhaal, etc.)... and none of these creators are cowboys.  They are basing their ideas about cowboys on role models... because that's really what all artists do (whether they're writers, actors or painters). And one factor in constructing these characters is an awareness of a type of realism or "real cowboys" (but, since there isn't simply one kind of "real cowboy" it's hard to pinpoint exactly what that means).  But, just as much a factor are other artistic, cinematic and cultural depictions of the west.  Those two things aren't in conflict.

Exactly.

[moremojo]

It might be worth bearing in mind that Proulx has insisted over and over again in interviews and articles that Ennis and Jack were not cowboys...they wanted to be cowboys, but they came together as sheepherders on the mountain (the low end of the totem pole in the ranching culture in which they lived). Jack didn't even remain on the land but became a small-town gentleman-salesman of not insubstantial wealth (or at least with links to that wealth).

Proulx's argument seems to be based on strict delineations derived from types of work (and we know that Ennis did work with cattle at various points in his life), but I think a deeper implication of her statements is that Ennis and Jack did, however subconsciously, model their style and behavior on a cowboy ideal that may not have existed in their world anymore. The open range had closed by the late nineteenth century, and the golden age of the cowboy had become a thing of the past, preserved mainly in stories and media representations, such as the movies. It is certainly conceivable, thinking along these lines, that Jack and Ennis were influenced by the actors they may have seen in Westerns or the images they may have encountered in magazines and books, so that the rough equivalent of the "Marlboro Man" may have helped shape their sense of identity (not to mention the kind of man they mutually found attractive).

On the issue of Brokeback Mountain's genre, even if it is not strictly speaking a Western, it derives much of its totemic force from the tradition of the Western. The closing image, for example, is a subtle nod to the final shot in John Ford's 1956 classic The Searchers.

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, Scott, when I heard her talk the first time she said, "If I had wanted them to be COWboys, I wouldn't have put them to work herding sheep!" and she sounded a mite peeved about it.