TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[Brown Eyes]

Will that prove Jack was murdered??

Hugs!!

I don't think there's any way to prove whether Jack died in an accident or whether he was murdered.  That's why this question is so endlessly fascinating.  We only know what we think, what Ennis believes and what Lureen says.  Neither the film nor the story gives us enough evidence to prove anything.

[Artiste]

Thanks atz75!

I think that we know more than what we think... surely.

And that (as extentions) become a story to be more full-filled!!

More detective works needed... too with what we have now even with the present Annie book and BM movie!!

Hugs!!

[serious crayons]

I agree with what you have just said. This particular fictional plot lends itself to ambiguity, especially in the scene where Ennis learns the news of Jack's death. My statement above was not meant to be taken that I believed that one MUST believe that Jack was murdered or one is insensitive to gay bashings. Far from it.

Thanks, brokeplex. My statement wasn't a direct response to your post. But I do think generally there is a tendency to argue this issue on the basis of whether or not anti-gay violence is common in real life ... and, conversely, whether tire-blow-up accidents are common. Those are both interesting springboards for discussion, but I don't think either is evidence of what Annie Proulx had in mind.

[Penthesilea]

Some intermediate poll results after this topic has been in the focus for a week:


. 50 people voted, that's a lot. Thank you!

. I divided the votes in three groups:

• 23 people believe (to a higher or lesser extent) that Jack was murdered. That's almost half of the voters.
• 15 people believe (to a higher or lesser extent) that Jack died in an accident. That's 28%, less than a third.
• 7 people don't know (due to different reasons). That's 14%

. 21 people believe we are not supposed to know. That's the single answer with the most votes and of course it overlaps with other groups.


Since I don't claim this to be any serious science, I think it's fair to generalize that half of the BetterMost Brokies believe Jack was murdered, and the other half believes something else.


Although this question is no longer the TOTW, you're welcome to continue the discussion or pick it up again sometime later.
The poll also stays open to new voters or to people who want to change their vote at a later date.

[moremojo]

Now, mostly everywhere, all of the time, cops are the good guys trying to protect the rest of us against the violent and the lawless.

Cops are not always the good guys, and racism, sexism, and homophobia do persist in various police forces around the country. Police entrapment in public parks and men's rooms still goes on--the Larry Craig incident has some flavor of entrapment (though that doesn't excuse Craig's behavior).

A good friend of mine was entrapped in a sting operation in a public park in Austin, where the undercover police officer approached him and initiated a sexually suggestive conversation. When my friend indicated verbal interest (no profanity, no exposure, not even the shaking of hands), other uniformed officers who had been hiding in the bush jumped out, tackled and tasered my friend, and arrested him on charges of public lewdness. The charges against my friend were eventually dropped, but in the meantime his face and name had been exposed on the local TV news and he was forced to tender his resignation from his job. I for one am still angry at the Austin Police Department for this egregious abuse of power.

[Artiste]

Thanks very much moremojo, brokeplex, Penthesilea, ineedcrayons, atz75, Katie 77, and to all others too!!

Since I find this thread very interesting, I desire it to continue. I appreciate that it can Penthesilea and ineedcrayons, and others too!! And other such threads too!!

Much need to be said still!! Surely!

I wish to know your sexual orientation by all who voted?? Is that possible?? Dare we say?? To respect gays, straights, bi-s, others and Annie's story and the BM movie?? I figure. Or another such thread to be started for that?

Moremojo, I appreciate very much the example you give about some police!! I hope and pray that that negativity towards gays is not general in all the police forces in our democratic countries!! And more such facts are needed here!! Start a thread for that, or add to  mine, or please continue here?? Did you know that the 4 anti-gays who bashed me had left many finger prints, but when I call the police I saw that two policemen who came and when I mentioned (to reply to the policemen which words used?) to them the anti-gay words that those 4 who tried to murder me because I am a gay masculine man, then I got the impression that these cops did not want to hear any further details about the clothes those murderers had, etc.; -no need to lock the door behind us, you are safe since we are here- they said as they entered my home, such bull since they never came back for even the fingerprints on the glass, wood, etc., which I left there for many days for them, nor back for any details as to the clothes, the faces, the killers had!! I locked my door anyway even with them  those 2 cops inside!! And I escaped later on to sleep in my truck for many days, weeks... in various towns and cities, since criminals followed me!! Did police help?

Like brokeplex says, I pray that he is right. But it is more and more evident that in our democratic countries, the police are more corrupt or are afraid of crimnals?? !!

Jack was certainly murdered and the police would have likely done nothing at all, but cover up Jack dead body!! ?? Some cops would have left Jack mutilated body for all to see like Ennis' father did show a dead gay corpse to him?? Likely!! I would be surprise Jack's body left there for day(s) uncovered by cops, but not that surprised!!

I wonder if straights, bi-s, others, even gays differ on answering this thread question??

Dare I ask how can we, gays, be safer, and not be murdered as Jack was likely??

Hugs!! Gays be safe always!!

[moremojo]

In answer to your question about the sexual orientation of those who have voted, Artiste, I can say that I am a gay man.

[Artiste]

I know, and thanks moremojo.

Moi aussi!


Hope others will say too!!


May I ask you if you are afraid being a gay man, that possibly you will be murdered like maybe Jack was?

Hugs!!

[Scott6373]

Cops are not always the good guys, and racism, sexism, and homophobia do persist in various police forces around the country. Police entrapment in public parks and men's rooms still goes on--the Larry Craig incident has some flavor of entrapment (though that doesn't excuse Craig's behavior).

My only issue with this statement Namesake, is that regardless as to your opinion of the law enforcement behavior, the behavior of those who seeks anonymous sex in public bathrooms, parks, rest areas, etc, is equally egregious.  At this point in our individual and mutual quest for equality, we have to be the first to say that irresponsible behavior can't continue to part of what identifies us as people.

[moremojo]

To Artiste--yes, I do feel vulnerable to potential homophobic violence, and exercise caution in my public behavior.

To Scott--I understand where you're coming from in regard to public sex acts (though personally I would like to see society evolve to regard such acts as licit forms of expression), but it's important to make a distinction between attempts to hook-up in public and actually engaging in sexual acts in public. My friend did nothing more than essentially reveal an interest in hooking up, yet was treated just the same as someone who had exposed himself or more. I definitely see the actions of the police in this instance as homophobic.