TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[underdown]

Gosh, all the posts are great, and all could be correct.
Reading all of that, I thought ... this segment really reinforces the movie's ability to make us think, and ponder, and each in our own way get something valuable from it, no matter how each person sees the story as a whole, and regardless of how Jack died.
Whether we see it as a brutal murder (as I do), or an accident, or a mystery that Ennis was left to agonise over for a long time , it is still cruel.
I think one of the amazing things about the story of BBM is the way our interpretation can change each time we see it, read it, or even just think about it, and how differently everyone sees this part of it really shows that.
This segment is truly a 'catalyst for change'. Even for a straight male who thought he knew how gay people felt.
 

[Clyde-B]

  It's been pointed out many times in many places that BBM is about the destructive effects of rural homophobia.

   If Jack were murdered, the 'villain' of the piece, as it were, would be the homophobia felt by other people toward gays.

   If Jack were killed by accident then the focus shifts to Ennis's own homophobia and how it kept him from happiness.

   By leaving it enigmatic, both types are targeted.  The focus is on homophobia as whole.

   I think this was Annie P's intention, and I prefer looking at it this way.

[myprivatejack]

IMO,Jack was murdered,bearing in mind the environment in which both of them and their relationship had developed.Of course,story is deliberately ambiguous,or better said,open enough as that everyone of us has their own opinion,and surely everyone is real and good...-remember the case of the "Jack,I swear..."-,In this sense,it could be seen as a result of Ennis paranoia;but we can't forget that Jack in the last times had lowered his guard a lot...It's tragically curious and ironic to see as Ennis had spent half his life protecting themselves against this possibility,up to the point of a constant self-denial,to arrive at the end at the same result he had been trying to avoid...or,at least,with a lot of possibilities of being so.
What's more,I tend to believe that Lureen knew the truth,she was involved in the tragic result;her way of explaining what had happenned seems to cold for a woman who has just lost her husband,the man is supposed she loved.Her father hated Jack and probably she did too,because he was at the point of leaving her-we don't know if for being with Randall-and during all their living together,she surely guessed his tendencies.There's nothing worst that a person who feels deceived and humiliated to turn suddenly all this love into hate.She only cried a little,then,when she guessed-or better said,she knew-who was really Ennis and that BBM existed and was her husband and him "love nest".I think it's clear.
And it was easy,because as I said before,Jack was more reckless than ever in the exhibition of his same sex companies;surely because,as Lureen said,he was drinking a lot and thinking even in death-his wish to have his ashes in BBM...-.Because he didn't have in same way a reason for living,the idea of a "sweet life together" has been broken into pieces;for this,he was bolder because he didn't mind what could happen.And in this sense,I dare to say that Ennis was the "intellectual",or "moral" author of his death,because he had killed long time ago the Jack he had met,the lively,glad and dreamer Jack,to turn him into a shadow-and not only for year's passing,it's sure...-.

[Toast]

Annie used the word "accident", and then showed how Ennis thought and then knew that Jack had been beaten by a tire iron.   Ennis knew it was murder after John Twist told Ennis that Jack had moved on to another man.   It was easier to face that Jack had been murdered than to face that he, Ennis, had killed their sweet life together.

Reading this well informed and thought-out discussion, I feel like we are talking about whether Jesus Christ lived, died, was the son of god, or just plain fiction.  It boils down to a discussion about a belief structure, and that is probably what all good literature is about. 

Now to the movie - or at least the shooting script for the movie.
The scene  below was written to be included in the movie, and would have been inserted between the goodbye-Cassie scene and the deceased-postcard scene:

EXT. GAS STATION -- ROAD OUTSIDE CHILDRESS -- DAY -- 1982

Jack's truck pulls up to the dirt lot next to the gas station. A mechanic, tire jack in hand, fiddling with a car, takes a beer from his buddy, who sits on a tire nearby. They both watch as Randall gets out of the truck and walks to his own truck parked in the lot, waving back at Jack.
The mechanic trades glances with his friend.

Their pov:
Randall's truck pulls out of the lot, goes in one direction.
Jack's pulls out after him, going in the opposite direction. wide:
We hold on Jack's truck, as it drives off into the distance.
                   [2004 screenplay]


    The scene seems to have been shot since a killer mechanic (and his 'buddies') is listed in the credits.
          Gary Lauder         ....     Killer Mechanic
          Christian Fraser     ....     Grease Monkey
          Cam Sutherland    ....      Assailant

                     [scene from Brokeback Mountain trailer]

The film cannot show Ennis's thought processes like the novella can, but it is a progression in the other direction to identify the killers, when Annie Proulx links the tire iron to the death only in Ennis's paranoid imagination.

[Sandy]

Annie says, “the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts”.  This is the answer to the question! 

Ennis believes that Jack was murdered because that is what he believes would have been the outcome of their relationship.

And Jack would think that it was an accident because he was willing to get out there and live.

Me? I think he was because some people are just downright evil.  Randall was too close to home and Lureen? She knew.   

[nova20194]

    The scene seems to have been shot since a killer mechanic (and his 'buddies') is listed in the credits.

          Gary Lauder         ....     Killer Mechanic
          Christian Fraser     ....     Grease Monkey
          Cam Sutherland    ....      Assailant

                     [scene from Brokeback Mountain trailer]

This scene was indeed shot.  Here's an excerpt regarding this scene from the FindingBrokeback.com website:


“It was removed to add ambiguity; Lee believes that the harder the audience must work, the better the result,” says a reliable source. There are at least three other excellent arguments for deletion of the Sneering Mechanics scene.

1. It elevates “I wish I knew how to quit you,” and the Dozy Embrace, to their rightful place as Jack’s valediction. Absent the Sneering Mechanics scene, we remember Jack as a man deeply in love, who spent his unhappy life struggling to overcome the consequences of hatred and fear. Could there be a higher honor?

2. It has given rise to literally thousands of hours of vigorous discussion and debate about Jack’s fidelity, and the issue of monogamy in general. Fan websites are awash in lengthy arguments over Jack and his “ranch neighbor friend.” Ennis never knew the truth with certainty, and neither will we.

3. Jack’s fate becomes the film’s much-celebrated mystery. Is Lureen telling the truth? When we witness the murder are we seeing what actually happened or is it Ennis’ imagination at work? Perhaps most intriguing of all, why does it matter to us so?


If you'd like more information about this scene (or 9 other deleted scenes), check out the "Deleted Scenes" section at FindingBrokeback.com.

[louisev]

I think that if that scene were included in the release film, it would be an easier question to answer, but I think that removing that scene brought it back more to the realm of the book.

[serious crayons]

And I also think it's possible that the screenwriters and Ang Lee are "wrong" -- that is, have a different idea about it than Annie Proulx did. I use that word ironically, because of course they have every right to interpret the story and make the film however they'd like. But I do think that, for me, the story more clearly points toward accident, while the film leaves it more ambiguous, with the deleted mechanics scene suggesting murder and the final product leaving the question open (obviously) to debate.

Diana Ossana, in an interview, once said that if you ask Annie Proulx how Jack died, she'll tell you that she doesn't know. I assume this is true, because I would think it would have come up in their conversations about the story. So probably Annie didn't come right out and tell her, one way or another.

But I think that could be disingenuous on Annie's part. Literary authors are often skittish about explaining too much about their stories, especially about things that they kept subtle deliberately. And there's no doubt that, whatever Annie had in mind, she kept it deliberately subtle. If she'd wanted to make it more obvious, she could have.

But subtlety, in literary fiction, is not the same thing as providing no answer at all.

  It was easier to face that Jack had been murdered than to face that he, Ennis, had killed their sweet life together.

Good point, Toast. And it suggests one possible interpretation of "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."

That is: He knew that Jack had died accidentally, and that Ennis had killed their sweet life. But he tried to believe that Jack had been murdered, because it was easier to face.

[Jeff Wrangler]

3. Jack’s fate becomes the film’s much-celebrated mystery. Is Lureen telling the truth? When we witness the murder are we seeing what actually happened or is it Ennis’ imagination at work? Perhaps most intriguing of all, why does it matter to us so?

Isn't that the truth?

I think that if that scene were included in the release film, it would be an easier question to answer, but I think that removing that scene brought it back more to the realm of the book.

I agree, Louise.

Diana Ossana, in an interview, once said that if you ask Annie Proulx how Jack died, she'll tell you that she doesn't know. I assume this is true, because I would think it would have come up in their conversations about the story. So probably Annie didn't come right out and tell her, one way or another.

But I think that could be disingenuous on Annie's part. Literary authors are often skittish about explaining too much about their stories, especially about things that they kept subtle deliberately. And there's no doubt that, whatever Annie had in mind, she kept it deliberately subtle. If she'd wanted to make it more obvious, she could have.

It would have been self-defeating of her purpose for Annie to come out and say, one way or the other. Ennis is left with his conviction of what happened, and so are we, each left with our own conviction.

[Penthesilea]

Back to story only for a moment. Something mentioned here by Paul triggered me to look up every single mention of the tire iron. I then posted the following on the mettle-of-man-thread, but repost here on request, since it also belongs to this topic:


Do you know how often the tire iron is mentioned in the story? No less than six times.  Six, that's a whole lot for such a short story.

• They'd took a tire iron to him [Earl], spurred him up, drug him around by his dick until it pulled off...
• If he [Ennis's father] was alive and was to put his head in that door now you bet he'd go get his tire iron
• No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron.
• He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident...
• So he knew it had been the tire iron.
• The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron.
  

,   
                                                                                                                                                     
The first two are from the motel scene. The next two are from the phone call with Lureen, # 5 is from the Lightning Flat scene and the last one is from Ennis's dream after Jack's death.

The first two are spoken by Ennis. The next three are thoughts of Ennis and the last one is from Ennis's dreams.

All six mentions of the tire iron come from Ennis. No other reference to tire irons than from him.

Katherine's comment on this:

I think you should post it there, too, Chrissi. Because as you've listed them here, you can see Ennis' thoughts developing and firming up. Which to me suggests they were in his mind in the first place.

And the last image, of the spoon and the tire iron, "in a cartoon shape and lurid colors that gave the dreams a flavor of comic obscenity" seems -- in my mind -- to really underscore the idea that the idea of Jack's murder is a product of Ennis' paranoia.