TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[Brown Eyes]

I think Jack's lack of fear of (1) Ennis and (2) the threat of violence is significant on a couple of levels.

My sense is that we're supposed to understand that Ennis has a reputation as a pretty tough and intimidating guy.  And, Jack's reaction here just shows that he, perhaps uniquely, can see right through Ennis's tough-guy armor or exterior.  He can probably see that Ennis's threats and macho response here are covering up some serious insecurities.  I wonder if Jack may actually be flattered to see this amount of jealously and possessiveness come out of Ennis.

And, in terms of Jack not being scared of the threat of violence (as a general concept here)... I think shows that Jacks fears and worries are totally different than Ennis's.  Ennis will spend his whole life obsessing about the threat of violence... and Jack can pretty much just blow that fear off (because for some reason it doesn't appear to be anywhere near as acute for him).  His biggest fears are about continuing disappointment.  I think.  And, of course the fear of losing Ennis.

[Brokeback_Dev]

Some people seem to think this is the point where Ennis loses Jack.  Of course we all know this is their last time together because Jack was indeed killed.  How do feel about that Amanda?

[LauraGigs]

And, Jack's reaction here just shows that he, perhaps uniquely, can see right through Ennis's tough-guy armor or exterior...
And, in terms of Jack not being scared of the threat of violence (as a general concept here)... I think shows that Jacks fears and worries are totally different than Ennis's.

IMO, Jack's worst fears and worries had already come true: his dream of a sweet life = gone.  He was essentially a broken man long before he died.

(It's particularly striking to me in this shot:

Ennis had taken a terrible physical beating in just the previous scene, but Jack is the focus of concern here – from both Ennis and the filmmakers, it seems to me.)

Anyway, I think Jack was less afraid of a violent end (and thus may have gotten more careless) because his spirit was already essentially broken.

[Brokeback_Dev]

Anyway, I think Jack was less afraid of a violent end (and thus may have gotten more careless) because his spirit was already essentially broken.

Awe thats so said Laura

[Jeff Wrangler]

What's interesting here is the wording: "All them things that I don't know could get you killed if I come to know them."

Awfully flowery language from a Wyoming ranch hand (although luckily it's delivered so well that it works).

Flowery?     Personally, I thought it was pretty ignorant and phrased so awkwardly as to be unbelievable had Heath not been as good an actor as he is to pull that out of his teeth and make it seem real.

The dialogue line as published in Story to Screenplay is "What I don't know, all them things I don't know ... could get you killed if I should come to  know them." It's a direct quote from the story text.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

My opinion is based solely on what I saw in the movie, not really on the short story at all.

As Lureen is talking to Ennis on the phone, she seems to be looking at someone, someone in the room with her that we don't see. Maybe a parent, maybe someone else, maybe Bobby. She is maintaining eye contact with them as she goes thru an obviously rehearsed and oft repeated story. She is concealing something for sure. Anne Hathaway even spoke to this on Oprah saying "its pretty obvious" or something like that.

My feeling is that Jacks death did not occure in the way she was portraying it.  

[Artiste]

Thanks Shakestheground!

Interesting is your puzzling comment!

So you think that someone or persons did try to murder Jack and nearly succeeded, and his Jack's wife knows about that??

Hugs!!

[Brown Eyes]

My opinion is based solely on what I saw in the movie, not really on the short story at all.

As Lureen is talking to Ennis on the phone, she seems to be looking at someone, someone in the room with her that we don't see. Maybe a parent, maybe someone else, maybe Bobby. She is maintaining eye contact with them as she goes thru an obviously rehearsed and oft repeated story. She is concealing something for sure. Anne Hathaway even spoke to this on Oprah saying "its pretty obvious" or something like that.

My feeling is that Jacks death did not occure in the way she was portraying it. 

Hey Bud!

Amazing!  This observation that Lureen may have been maintaining eye-contact with someone while she was on the phone is a new one to me.  But, it's a really fascinating idea.  And, I can certainly understand where that interpretation could come from... now that you describe it.

I've always thought her description sounded rehearsed.  Definitely... but I'd always thought it was just fatigue at re-telling the story of Jack's death (which she probably had to do over and over again for friends and family, etc.).  Or if not fatigue... as a way of just getting through having to describe something very difficult.

That phone scene is just so brilliant.  I still think Lureen really treats Ennis very well on the phone.  I think it's a huge kindness on her part to prod Ennis to go visit Jack's parents, etc. 

[belbbmfan]

That phone scene is just so brilliant.  I still think Lureen really treats Ennis very well on the phone.  I think it's a huge kindness on her part to prod Ennis to go visit Jack's parents, etc. 

I agree. Lureen really did care about Jack. She wants his last wishes to be fulfilled. And all this after she just found out (or her suspicions were confirmed) that Ennis was so much more the 'the fishing buddy'.

[Penthesilea]

Not to be a party pooper, but to comment on some postings that say "If Ennis had been there - opened himself up - he would have been able to save Jack."

Would he have?  In a situation where both were suspect in in a dangerous, confrontational situation, would Ennis have risen to the occasion?  Or would he have been paralyzed by fear?  Or not wanting to align himself with Jack in front of others - so as to be considered a 'boy like him'?  We hear about Rich and Earl.  Earl got killed.  Where was his lover?  Did he stand up for his lover?  Or not?  Would Ennis have been another Rich?

Not one person in this thread has said that Ennis would have been able to save Jack. Some (I 'm among them) said he might have been able to save him. Big difference.

You and I may be able to weigh the chances logically: even people living a sweet life together aren't together for every minute of the day; in the accident case Jack may have died from his severe injuries even if someone had turned him around; in the murder case they may both have been murdered; and so on. We can even get downright philosophically about the question and ask if Jack's time was simply up, no matter how the circumstances were.

We can argue about logical versimilitudes (which chances were higher?) as much as we want, it doesn't matter to Ennis. Because for Ennis, it boils down to "blood choking down Jack's throat and nobody there to turn him over."
If Ennis had said yes to the sweet life, he may have been able to save Jack, and that chance is enough to feel not only regret, but also guilt (btw a common phenomenon among survivors).