Author Topic: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?  (Read 66516 times)

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2008, 03:58:52 pm »
Thanks garycottle!

Gary, you say: The tragedy still remains even if Jack was killed by gay bashers.  Ennis pushed Jack away because he thought by doing so he was saving Jack.  But, if Jack was gay bashed, what Ennis did was make him face the enemy alone.  Which is the tragedy of the closet.  In hiding from our haters, we also hide from one another, so when trouble comes, we stand alone.  If Jack was intentionally killed, Ennis was not right in refusing that sweet life, because if Ennis had been there, he may have been able to save Jack.  No matter how Jack died, Ennis may have been able to do something if he had been there.  That's the tragedy. 

Gay people face real dangers.  And so gay people are afraid.  Both of these things are awful, but the tragedy lies in how we let these things keep us from banding together.   
 
 


...

Gary and to all too, I could not have said it better!! That is what I have been trying to say all along too!! But I got negatives from some, when it comes from protecting oursellves from gay bashing!! Why? Why?

Hugs!!
...

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2008, 04:34:34 pm »
All six mentions of the tire iron come from Ennis.

Great point, Chrissi. (Isn't it great to be able to search the story?)

I'm reminded of one of my favorite IMDb discussions:  Ennis's Maledictions with CaseyCornelius.  Briefly, there are three:

1) "You probably deserve it" in response to Jack's statement that he feared getting shot by Lureen or "the husband" every time he slips off to see the ranchman's wife.

2) Most importantly, the Mexico response, "All them things I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them".

3) "Why don't you" (quit me).

I would add 4) "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" at the end of the Lake Scene, just before the dozy embrace.

In my opinion, Ennis psychologically  kills Jack.  Why?  Because Jack has broken their pact that they're not "queer".  Notice their last night together, they're talking about their "women", Ennis's Cassie and Jack's rancher's wife.  But, Jack ventures the "truth" with "...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Awfully close to "I love you".

The closer Jack gets to "queer", the more distressed Ennis gets.  Thus, Mexico is the last straw.  If Jack is queer, so is Ennis, and he can't stand that. 

Ennis is predetermined to believe queer = violent death, because of Earl (and his expectation his father would have come into the motel with the tire iron).

In the story, the sequence goes from:  Lureen's call--->believing tire iron--->end of call--->didn't know if it were tire iron or real accident--->OMT mentions the other fella--->now he knew it was the tire iron.

So, as Chrissi points out, all the tire iron references come from Ennis.  I think the murder is a projection  on his part.




Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2008, 04:44:27 pm »
1) "You probably deserve it" in response to Jack's statement that he feared getting shot by Lureen or "the husband" every time he slips off to see the ranchman's wife.

Interesting point, Paul! I either didn't notice or didn't remember Casey's comment on this. I've always seen Jack's prediction of getting shot as a foreshadowing of him getting killed (by whatever means), but for some reason I'd never thought hard enough about "You probably deserve it."

In one way, Ennis really DID think Jack deserved it -- well, deserved it might be too strong a word. But Ennis felt that what he and Jack were doing was wrong. And by stepping out with the ranchman's wife, whom we really know was a man, Jack was doing something that, if it didn't deserve killing, at the very least could easily lead to killing.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2008, 04:49:28 pm »
In one way, Ennis really DID think Jack deserved it -- well, deserved it might be too strong a word. But Ennis felt that what he and Jack were doing was wrong. And by stepping out with the ranchman's wife, whom we really know was a man, Jack was doing something that, if it didn't deserve killing, at the very least could easily lead to killing.

Hmm. I wonder if Ennis could have been projecting onto Jack his own feelings that he, himself, deserves it?  :-\  :(
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2008, 04:51:31 pm »
In my opinion, Ennis psychologically  kills Jack.  Why?  Because Jack has broken their pact that they're not "queer".  Notice their last night together, they're talking about their "women", Ennis's Cassie and Jack's rancher's wife.  But, Jack ventures the "truth" with "...sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  Awfully close to "I love you".

The closer Jack gets to "queer", the more distressed Ennis gets.  Thus, Mexico is the last straw.  If Jack is queer, so is Ennis, and he can't stand that. 

Ennis is predetermined to believe queer = violent death, because of Earl (and his expectation his father would have come into the motel with the tire iron).

In the story, the sequence goes from:  Lureen's call--->believing tire iron--->end of call--->didn't know if it were tire iron or real accident--->OMT mentions the other fella--->now he knew it was the tire iron.

So, as Chrissi points out, all the tire iron references come from Ennis.  I think the murder is a projection  on his part.

This is very elegant, Paul. And I agree about Jack breaking their pact that they're really not queer, this is just a one-shot thing, nobody's business but theirs.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2008, 05:44:20 pm »
Hmm. I wonder if Ennis could have been projecting onto Jack his own feelings that he, himself, deserves it?  :-\  :(

Another good thought, Jeff!

Geez, there really aren't any throwaway lines in this, are there? (Said for the 14,529th time.)



Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2008, 05:45:51 pm »
In one way, Ennis really DID think Jack deserved it -- well, deserved it might be too strong a word. But Ennis felt that what he and Jack were doing was wrong. And by stepping out with the ranchman's wife, whom we really know was a man, Jack was doing something that, if it didn't deserve killing, at the very least could easily lead to killing.

Yes, Katherine, certainly in Ennis's mind.

Hmm. I wonder if Ennis could have been projecting onto Jack his own feelings that he, himself, deserves it?  :-\  :(

Yeah, Jeff, that's exactly what a projection is.  Ennis is projecting his own fears, self-loathing, homophobia.  

moremojo

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2008, 05:51:05 pm »
Hmm. I wonder if Ennis could have been projecting onto Jack his own feelings that he, himself, deserves it?  :-\  :(
Ennis threatened to kill Jack himself upon discovering the trips to Mexico, and their intimations of Jack's true queerness. From Ennis's point of view at that time in his life, queers deserved killing; if Ennis came to see or admit his own queerness, then logically he must have felt deserving of such a fate too. Certainly, Ennis's threats and maledictions would have haunted him after Jack's death; in some way or other, Ennis must have felt responsible for it.

It's interesting to consider that Jack's death may alone have freed Ennis from his violent impulses towards queer men, when he reflected that the love of his life may have been torn from him by an act of gay bashing. This would further bolster the sense that Jack's death was a sacrifice.

Offline Kerry

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2008, 06:05:36 pm »
Ennis threatened to kill Jack himself upon discovering the trips to Mexico, and their intimations of Jack's true queerness. From Ennis's point of view at that time in his life, queers deserved killing; if Ennis came to see or admit his own queerness, then logically he must have felt deserving of such a fate too. Certainly, Ennis's threats and maledictions would have haunted him after Jack's death; in some way or other, Ennis must have felt responsible for it.

It's interesting to consider that Jack's death may alone have freed Ennis from his violent impulses towards queer men, when he reflected that the love of his life may have been torn from him by an act of gay bashing. This would further bolster the sense that Jack's death was a sacrifice.

Beautifully expressed.  :'(   :'(   :'(
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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2008, 06:07:04 pm »
The tragedy still remains even if Jack was killed by gay bashers.  Ennis pushed Jack away because he thought by doing so he was saving Jack.  But, if Jack was gay bashed, what Ennis did was make him face the enemy alone.  Which is the tragedy of the closet.  In hiding from our haters, we also hide from one another, so when trouble comes, we stand alone.  If Jack was intentionally killed, Ennis was not right in refusing that sweet life, because if Ennis had been there, he may have been able to save Jack.  No matter how Jack died, Ennis may have been able to do something if he had been there.  That's the tragedy.  

Gay people face real dangers.  And so gay people are afraid.  Both of these things are awful, but the tragedy lies in how we let these things keep us from banding together.  

Even today, in 2008, you can go onto any online gay dating site, and you will find profiles of men who don't show their face, or have no photo.  The fear is still very much out there.