TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?

[forsythia12]

yep, and that's why i think he is so silent when leshawn's hubby asks about the cabin.  i think it took jack for a loop 'cause i don't think he knew how he knew. (what's that guy's name again?)
it's nice chatting about this azt.
keep posting if you think of anything new.

[Brown Eyes]

yep, and that's why i think he is so silent when leshawn's hubby asks about the cabin.  i think it took jack for a loop 'cause i don't think he knew how he knew. (what's that guy's name again?)
it's nice chatting about this azt.
keep posting if you think of anything new.

Nice chatting with you too Bud!  It's a nice way to pass the time here at work.

Anyway, Randall is the guy on the bench with Jack.  Yes, I think Jack is sort of stunned by the whole turn of events at that dinner dance.  I think there's a lot of flirting between Jack and Randall at the table and then it is raised to the way-next level by Randall on the bench.  I'm sure there are a million things running through Jack's mind at that point.  One of which, may be "how does he know?".  But, I think he's also weighing his options about saying yes or no... and he's also probably freaked out that Randall happens to suggest fishing (since that's his big association with Ennis).

On the other hand, I think Jack has particularly good "gaydar"... so I think he had Randall figured out at the table. 

Ennis, on the other hand, during the main "maybe Texas" scene in question, seems to be (in part) worrying about "gaydar" in another way.  Worried about how people are starting to perceive him.  And, it really is interesting that here we almost hear Ennis admit that he understands that he's gay or at least "different."

           Ennis's immediate reaction to Jack's proposal to move to Texas was not about their
relationship.  It was about his relationship to his daughters.  He said "Maybe you could convince
Alma to let you and Lureen to adopt the girls." " Then money would rain down from L.D. Newsome,
and we could all live together herdin sheep."  I think he was trying to discuss his newly discovered
queer status.  How much other people could tell about his queerness just by looking.  He was
still afraid of being found out.  Then Jack again mentioned his moving near him, and that was an
irritant.  He didnt want to discuss them living together.  Therefor the anger he displayed.  Basically
"I dont want to go into that again.  I was wondering about the awareness of others to us.  Me and
you as QUEERS."  That i think was the conversation that he wanted to get into.  And Jack angered
him by bringing up the same thing HE had always wanted.  Thereby making him angry.

Now further than that we can go int all the symbolism.  The dropping the bucket, and the
things that might have been getting away.  Or the fact that it was water under the bridge or
on down river.  However you wish to catagorise it.  Jack once again foiled, and stomping off
this time because of his plans being stunted yet one more time.  I believe it was showing how
they both had the same issues that stopped them in the beginning.  Nothing solved nothing
changed.  Yet again.  They didnt talk to each other with intent, on listening to the others ideas,
but at each other.  With their own agenda in mind period.

Hey Janice!  I think this post is great.  I do think this scene illustrates just how much Ennis and Jack are stuck on their own issues and are almost speaking passed one another or at cross purposes.  This scene really strongly demonstrates how much of a strain their relationship is under given the conditions placed on it.

[brokeplex]

Jack the eternal optimist is frequently looking for any excuse to see more of Ennis, he thinks he sees an opening in some comments Ennis made in 1977 that to me frankly sounded paranoid. This was a characteristic of their relationship starting in 1967 when Jack first mentions the "cow and calf operation" and Ennis told him that was not realistic - again showing the same fearful paranoia.

Back in 1975 Jack drove all the way up to WY after hearing that Alma had divorced Ennis in the hope/expectation that Ennis would finally be ready to move in together him. Somehow Jack didn't contact Ennis before the trip to see if his hopes were realistic, so there is something sadly touching about Jack's delusions about his future with Ennis. Hope Springs Eternal For Jack / Fear Wells Up Eternal For Ennis

By 1977 Jack was frustrated enough with Ennis's refusals and Ennis was frustrated enough with Jack's pushing that both lashed out at each other.
To me personally it is one of the sadder scenes in the film, as it is similar to some of the conversations I had with Chris in the 1980's.

Was a move down to Childress likely on Ennis's part? No, what would Ennis do in Childress Co? Other than Jack he had no connections in the area, no work history, it would have been tough to get a job as a man now in his mid 30's, and it would have meant abandoning his contacts with and responsibilities to his children. Being with Jack more often just wasn't enough of an inducement. Also, Ennis resented Jack's relatively comfortable life as the husband of a prosperous woman, even if Jack is way on the outside of the Newsome family and is humiliated from time to time. Ennis would have seen much of his relative independence from Jack sacrificed if he moved to Texas.

On the whole it would have been much more realistic for Jack to move back up to WY. Jack had many connections in WY, and maybe he could have still gotten that walking away money from the "old sonnovabitch" L.D. And Ennis had to be asking himself that question, if Jack needs to see me so badly, why doesn't he move back up to his home here in WY?

[Lynne]

To me this scene is pretty complex and I think it starts with Ennis asking Jack if things are 'normal' between him and Lureen - if she ever suspects.  Jack pauses a bit there and nods.  Ennis appears to take him at his word and continues with asking about if he sometimes thinks other people suspect...

I have the sense here with Jack's hesitation, then silent nod, that things are NOT normal between him and Lureen and that Lureen does suspect.  It reminds me a bit of the 'I'm not queer' scene where Jack says 'Me neither' and averts his gaze.  I think he's lying - not maliciously - his motivation is likely to not give  Ennis more to worry about.  As someone else pointed out, Jack also protects Ennis from the knowledge that Aguirre knew about them.  I have the sense that if Jack had acknowledged that things weren't really 'normal' with Lureen, he would have encouraged Ennis to open up more about his experiences with Alma and his fears.

So even though they're talking, I don't think they're communicating.  And Ennis' derisive response to Jack's 'Maybe Texas?' suggestion shows his frustration that Jack isn't really hearing him...We get another 'Jack F-ing Twist' as Ennis chases the bucket down the stream.

[Brown Eyes]

To me this scene is pretty complex and I think it starts with Ennis asking Jack if things are 'normal' between him and Lureen - if she ever suspects.  Jack pauses a bit there and nods.  Ennis appears to take him at his word and continues with asking about if he sometimes thinks other people suspect...

I have the sense here with Jack's hesitation, then silent nod, that things are NOT normal between him and Lureen and that Lureen does suspect.  It reminds me a bit of the 'I'm not queer' scene where Jack says 'Me neither' and averts his gaze.  I think he's lying - not maliciously - his motivation is likely to not give  Ennis more to worry about.  As someone else pointed out, Jack also protects Ennis from the knowledge that Aguirre knew about them.  I have the sense that if Jack had acknowledged that things weren't really 'normal' with Lureen, he would have encouraged Ennis to open up more about his experiences with Alma and his fears.

So even though they're talking, I don't think they're communicating.  And Ennis' derisive response to Jack's 'Maybe Texas?' suggestion shows his frustration that Jack isn't really hearing him...We get another 'Jack F-ing Twist' as Ennis chases the bucket down the stream.

Yes, I agree that there's already something notable about Jack's reply to the "normal" question from the very beginning of the conversation. 

The whole question of how Jack and Ennis communicate (or fail to communicate) is pretty interesting.

When their relationship is still at the friend/budding-romance stage... their communication is pretty good.  Actually, the scene where Jack listens to Ennis say more than "he's spoke in a year" seems to show that Ennis is already super comfortable with Jack and is in the process of making him a confidant.  Jack's ability to make Ennis laugh (when Jack understands that it's important to provide a little humor and lightheartedness to Ennis's rough situation) is also an instance of great, and very happy communication.

I think it might even be reasonable to say that from the beginning, Ennis's sense that he can talk to Jack pretty freely (by Ennis's standards at least) is one of the big attractions that Ennis feels towards Jack.

And, from there things get way more complex... and the complexity seems to really be signaled with the "I'm not queer" discussion between TS1 and TS2.


I wonder if this "maybe Texas" conversation is the second side of the palindrome (or ink-blot) for the "I'm not queer" scene,  in terms of BBM's filmic structure.

[brokeplex]

Yes, I agree that there's already something notable about Jack's reply to the "normal" question from the very beginning of the conversation. 

The whole question of how Jack and Ennis communicate (or fail to communicate) is pretty interesting.

When their relationship is still at the friend/budding-romance stage... their communication is pretty good.  Actually, the scene where Jack listens to Ennis say more than "he's spoke in a year" seems to show that Ennis is already super comfortable with Jack and is in the process of making him a confidant.  Jack's ability to make Ennis laugh (when Jack understands that it's important to provide a little humor and lightheartedness to Ennis's rough situation) is also an instance of great, and very happy communication.

I think it might even be reasonable to say that from the beginning, Ennis's sense that he can talk to Jack pretty freely (by Ennis's standards at least) is one of the big attractions that Ennis feels towards Jack.

And, from there things get way more complex... and the complexity seems to really be signaled with the "I'm not queer" discussion between TS1 and TS2.


I wonder if this "maybe Texas" conversation is the second side of the palindrome (or ink-blot) for the "I'm not queer" scene,  in terms of BBM's filmic structure.

I like that point!

[Brown Eyes]

I like that point!

Well, thanks for reviving the whole ink-blot/ palindrome concept recently Bud. 

I think it's a really important and interesting concept to recognize when thinking about BBM.

[Katie77]

Great thread, and great posts.......

I have just been thinking of the sheer frustrations Ennis must have bee feeling since Alma had confronted him after the Thanksgiving dinner. I dont know how long it was between that and the scene by the river, but it would have been bottled up inside Ennis all that time, no one to talk to about it, just time to go over and over it in his own mind, so the chance finally to spill it out into words with Jack, to hopefully get some comfort or logic from Jack about it all, and then wham, Jack starts on about his own agenda of Ennis moving to Texas to be closer to him......That wasn't what Ennis had been waiting for all this time, he wanted to focus the discussion on what he had been bottling up all that time, and in some ways, Jack turned the conversation around and that just made Ennis explode....in fact, what Jack was suggesting was more or less gonna bring what the two of them had, more out into the open....so here was Ennis still trying to hide it, and worried about what people might notice and Jack's solution, was come down to Texas and dont let it bother you who knows....

I think Ennis thought, he was the only one carrying all this frustration about their relationship, Jack seemed comfortable in his marriage, financially, and also with his own sexuality, and yet truthfully, he was as tormented and unhappy as Ennis was....Jack's solution seemed easy, just set up house together and everything would be OK, Ennis couldn't imagine that it could be that easy and found 100 reasons why it couldn't be.

[BBM-Cat]

I have the sense here with Jack's hesitation, then silent nod, that things are NOT normal between him and Lureen and that Lureen does suspect.  It reminds me a bit of the 'I'm not queer' scene where Jack says 'Me neither' and averts his gaze. 

I definitely agree with you there Lynne, this is one scene that always bothers me and seems like such a tragedy. A tragedy because Jack really misses the opportunity to communicate with, and reassure Ennis by 'normalizing' his thoughts, feelings, and experiences (as a queer man). Instead of reassuring Ennis that he too sometimes wonders if people 'know' about him, Jack nods that everything is 'normal' between him and Lureen, and he offers no support for Ennis' feelings that other people 'know' or 'suspect' him being queer.  By Jack nodding in agreement that things are 'normal', it only serves to escalate Ennis' anxiety, confirming in Ennis' own mind that something indeed must be terribly wrong with him if he cannot maintain 'normal' sexual relations with Alma, and that he has these feelings or beliefs that other people 'know' about him. I think that by the end of that "conversation", when Jack makes his seemingly innocuous remark about 'getting out of there' and moving to 'maybe Texas', Ennis already felt defensive, alienated in his experience, and lashed out with sarcasm.

It's a scene I truly wish had played out differently.

[optom3]

Well, yes, Alma explains that she figured things out about the fishing trips, the note, etc. 

But, also Ennis is now worried about "people on the pavement" looking at him "suspicious" like "they know."  I do think Ennis is worried that folks are somehow able to figure him out by the way he looks (or something like that).

I definitely think you're right that Jack simply lives without at much fear as Ennis, even when it comes to the issue of sexuality.

I agree, however there is a revealing sentence in the story that I think indicates Ennis has been giving some thought,albeit abstract to how the 2 of them could be together.In the motel scene Ennis says "I goddamn hate it that your'e going to drive away in the mornin and I"m goin back to work.-----"shit I have been lookin at people on the street.This happen a other people? What the hell do they do?"Is he looking to Jack as the more experienced to provide him with the answer?

It seems that Ennis must have some inkling,no matter how primitive or buried within his psyche that others have experienced what he and Jack have.He must have come at least partly to terms with his own feelings,otherwise why does he ponder what other people do. Interesting too is the fact that he has been thinking of this in the 4 years before he meets up with Jack again.
Equally revealing is jack"s reply ,'I don't know what they do,maybe go to Denver.'and I don't give a flying fuck"So if Ennis was hoping for some solution from Jack he is gravely disappointed,Equally puzzling to me is why jack mentions to ennis that he thinks they may have been seen that summer.Hardly the way to quash any fears inherent in the deep recesses of the mind of Ennis.
I think for Jack the place is irrelevant,he just has a pipe dream of some utopia where they can be together,period. Ennis has obviously given some thought as to how others manage it.A point which seemessd at odds with his normal laconic self.Maybe the same can be applied to him as his daughter,he does not say much ,but what he does sure is telling.
I think one of the most poignant sentences in the book is when Ennis reveals to Jack that after they come down from the mountain and he was sick,"took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn,t a let you out a my sights.Too late then by a long,long while"So he had been searching for answers for a year!!

My interpretation then is that Ennis gave up when he realised why he had been sick,and yet could not silence the nagging doubts as to if it happened to others ,what did they do about it,Jack of course is flippant in his "go to Denver" What puzzles me is when Ennis is for once being painfully honest and revealing his innermost thoughts,why does Jack not jump at the opportunity.Is it that he is still processing what Ennis said about it being too late by a long long time?

Well those are my thoughts and feel free to disagree,I think Texas is maybe as throwaway as Denver.Fundamentally I feel they both realise the ship has long since sailed.Having realised that ,all the frustrations of the years erupt.

Sorry if I have digressed a little,I just thought the motel scene in the book maybe casts some light on the film scene.