TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?

[Brown Eyes]

I've always thought of it as a indication of how impossible Jack and Ennis found it, to be simultaneously rural men and to be gay. "Maybe move to Denver" sounds to me like "maybe move to the Moon" - like Denver is completely foreign from their existence. Denver might be part of the West, but a city is no place for a ranch hand.

I've always found the line to be incredibly sad.

Well, that's a good point... that the Denver suggestion does seem to indicate that Jack at least perceives a disconnect between rural life and being gay.  I guess it is sad.

It's interesting that with the Denver comment it does seem entirely hypothetical or rhetorical (or something like that).  But, with the "maybe Texas" in the movie, there seems to be a lot of real intention there.

[Brokeback_Dev]

I just think its sad that Ennis wont even consider Jack's thought and blows off the idea of moving to Texas.   And he doesn't have to be so rude about it.  Jack wants to be happy with Ennis and have him close to him.  Moving to Texas is not such a bad idea..  I mean what does Ennis have holding him to Riverton besides his girls?  Nothing.  I don't understand why wont consider it.  I mean he can still see the girls on visitation.  They had that then.

It is interesting that Ennis is finally acknowledging his homosexuality and his love for Jack.  Its like Ennis finally comes out even if it is to his gay lover.  He's admitting their relationship is more than just a high altitude fuck once or twice a year even if thats all he has to give to Jack.   

[LauraGigs]

The Denver line is immediately followed by "and I don't give a flying fuck". Proving what we've been saying about this scene (that seems to echo the book dialogue): Jack & Ennis, given their different life experiences, just can't relate over this point. Jack is just less willing to let fear inhibit him. But the book is the book and the film is the film, and this thread is about a scene from the film...


I think their exchange by the stream is really interesting because for the first time, Jack is relatively quiet.

ENNIS  You and Lureen, it's uh… normal and all?
JACK  Sure.
ENNIS  She don't ever suspect?
JACK  [silence]


That really struck me!  Maybe Jack just gave his marriage to Lureen as little conscious thought as possible(?) (echoed later in his "never given it any thought" line).  As Jack & Lureen's inattention to the issues in their marriage (aka denial) may have been the main thing making it possible for their marriage to work.

But personally, my guess is that Jack wasn't being fully truthful here, because he's never wanted to add to Ennis' fears.  But interestingly, more truthfulness on Jack's part may have been the better solution, like with Aguirre. (If Ennis had known that Aguirre knew, in the long run he may have felt a bit safer, since Aguirre evidently told no one.)

I love your point, BBM-Cat, that Jack's non-empathy is a big mistake.  Ennis truly feels alone in his dilemma (an island indeed), the perfect setup for him to get together with Cassie in the next scene.  How can Ennis refuse when the perfect cover (or at least her feet) falls right in his lap?


Great thread and great posts, everybody.

[Katie77]

I think when Ennis says "Jack F***ing Twist" when he is in the river....its a reflecton to when he said it when he stood at the top of the stairs....as if he's saying "thats what started this thing again, me saying that, and sometimes I wish I had never started it up again after those four years"....

Of course he is only thinking that way because he is angry with Jack, and angry that they are no closer to getting this thing resolved than they were back then.....

[serious crayons]

Ennis is also aware that Jack asked "about 10 different people" where Ennis had moved following the divorce.  So, I think a lot of things add up to making Ennis feel very worried about random people knowing his secret.

The funny thing is that had Ennis been less paranoid, he could just as easily have interpreted this the other way. The first nine people Jack asked had no idea where Ennis lived -- that is, they weren't paying as much attention to Ennis as he probably thought they were.


As for the "maybe Texas" scene, I've always thought this was one of two times that Jack could have handled things better. The other being when they're dismantling the camp to leave the mountain.

ENNIS  You and Lureen, it's uh… normal and all?
JACK  Sure.
ENNIS  She don't ever suspect?
JACK  [silence]

Ennis seems like he's reaching out for help. The thing is, in the film Jack doesn't just remain silent -- he shrugs and nods: yeah, it's normal. When clearly, from later scenes, it's not -- he never wants to "dance" with his wife.  Jack is lying about him and Lureen in the "me neither" sense, to protect Ennis. But actually Ennis would benefit from a more honest answer. And then when Jack suggests moving to Texas, he's jumping on the opportunity to push his agenda (understandably!) but leaves Ennis' dilemma unresolved, his worries unsoothed.

But personally, my guess is that Jack wasn't being fully truthful here, because he's never wanted to add to Ennis' fears.  But interestingly, more truthfulness on Jack's part may have been the better solution, like with Aguirre. (If Ennis had known that Aguirre knew, in the long run he may have felt a bit safer, since Aguirre evidently told no one.)

I love your point, BBM-Cat, that Jack's non-empathy is a big mistake.  Ennis truly feels alone in his dilemma (an island indeed),

Exactly.

[Front-Ranger]

Well, that's a good point... that the Denver suggestion does seem to indicate that Jack at least perceives a disconnect between rural life and being gay.  I guess it is sad.

It's interesting that with the Denver comment it does seem entirely hypothetical or rhetorical (or something like that).  But, with the "maybe Texas" in the movie, there seems to be a lot of real intention there.

You're right, people in Wyoming really do think of Denver that way. It might as well be Hollywood or Las Vegas. Good thoughts, Amanda, and LauraGigs, I really liked your pointing out how mum Jack is for once!

[Sandy]

I guess most of you will disagree with me but I actually see the beginning of this scene as being a positive step for Ennis.

I think that he is beginning to attempt to start trying (phew!) to define his relationship with Jack.  I have always said that I think Ennis started ‘this thing’ as a homophobic man trained to be so by his father. When his relationship with Jack turned sexual, I don’t think that he spent time thinking about what it meant.  I think that he was scared to think about it because of the inevitable conclusion, so any thoughts about Jack were deliberately pushed out.  He loved Jack and missed him (which could be, if you want it to be, rationalised by saying he was his friend and they were alone on the mountain with needs).

Around the campfire, after the reunion scene, he refers to what they have as “this thing [that] grabs hold” as if it is an object, something that they can’t control, with a mind of its own.  By asking Jack about others looking at him “like he knows”, “like they know too” he is referring to that they have as being a part of him, i.e. while looking at him what do they know about him? 

Secondly, Ennis immediately rejects the move to Texas by mentioning his girls.  Ennis is a man of few words and I think that anything he says is to be taken at face value.  He doesn’t, at any point during this conversation, say about it being unsafe.  He talks about the long move from his girls.  He is reminding Jack that it’s not just about them, they can’t just live together as if they were on the mountain as young men.  They have responsibilities now.  Jack hasn’t got it all figured out, like he thinks. 

Regarding the plates flowing down the river, Ennis was holding onto the plates and during the conversation, lets go of them.  He was, for the first time since the reunion scene, entering into a serious discussion with Jack. He was attempting to let go a little at which point, Jack grabbed on.  He asked one question and the conversation ‘ran away’ from him.  The plates, to me, are more about Ennis’ fears of letting go, as if he does, who knows where he'll end up?

[souxi]

I agree with you Sandy. I think you,ve got that spot on actually. The only thing I don,t agree with is the plates, I think he just dropped em lol.
Why couldn,t it have been like that always? Why couldn,t the world just let them be?

[Front-Ranger]

The only thing I don,t agree with is the plates, I think he just dropped em lol.

Um, it was a bucket floating down the river...if you want to know more about the buckets, go here please!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0/all.html

[serious crayons]

Yeah, Front-Ranger's theory about buckets really fits this scene, IMO. The bucket represents Ennis' relationships -- for example, when fighting with Alma he kicks a bucket full of ashes -- and in this case he's letting his relationship with Jack slip away.

Sandy, good point about this scene showing Ennis attempting to define their relationship. The very fact that he fears people "know" indicates that he understands there is something TO know. It's really solid evidence that, certainly at this point (though I would argue, the whole time) he understands that he's homosexual. And I like the idea that the knowledge of the people on the pavement is also about the knowledge in his own head. (If that's what you're saying. That's how I read it, anyway.) Ennis so carefully compartmentalizes what he knows about himself -- his love for Jack is in one box; his belief that homosexuality is wrong is in another -- that it's almost like they're the thoughts of different people within his own mind.

Ennis is a man of few words and I think that anything he says is to be taken at face value.

I don't, however, quite agree with this. IMO, Ennis rarely says what's actually on his mind. In this case, yes, he wouldn't want to move far from his girls, and they are genuinely important. But just like in the post-divorce scene, I don't think it's really all about the girls. He just can't commit to Jack.

Here's another issue. It's odd of him to say everyone "on the pavement" looks at him, rather than everyone on the street. What's that about? Is there a connection between his saying that and the much earlier scene where he's laying pavement with Timmy?