Loneliness in Intervals

[Brown Eyes]

Yup, I think you're right.  I think that (in addition to sex, because I do think he's also refering to sex here) he's talking about companionship with someone who truly understands him... or at least companionship with someone for whom he doesn't have to fake he's straight.  At least with a male prositute he doesn't have to put up that facade, even if the situation ends up being degrading and ultimately unsatisfying.

[Aussie Chris]

Yup, I think you're right.  I think that (in addition to sex, because I do think he's also refering to sex here) he's talking about companionship with someone who truly understands him... or at least companionship with someone for whom he doesn't have to fake he's straight.  At least with a male prositute he doesn't have to put up that facade, even if the situation ends up being degrading and ultimately unsatisfying.

Really Amanda?  Not about sex?  I always interpreted that this was about sex because Jack first says: "You have no idea how bad it gets.  I... I'm not you, I can't make it on a couple of high-altitude f*cks once or twice a year...".  I guess you could argue the romance angle because the relationship is really what this scene is all about, but if I put myself in Jack's head I see him not really making a distinction between being with Ennis and sex with Ennis, and I think this because: "So what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything's built on that, that's all we got boy...".

And just because you might like a little extra work-out today: 

I totally agree that he has a fear of abandonment.  I think this plays directly into his dry-heaves moment after the first summer and into his anger in the argument scene.  I do think there's a bit of a contradiction in Ennis (no surprise, probably) since I think he probably is also a true loner.  Yeah, I do think he does better on his own in between camping trips than Jack.  I think Jack needs or craves daily companionship much more.  I like the idea that Ennis can sustain himself when he's alone just knowing that Jack is out there somewhere and that they'll get together again sometime soon.  It's very interesting to me how little they communicate with each other between the camping trips.  No phone calls or letters.  I'm sure this makes it extra hard on Jack.  I think his little cry "you have no idea how bad it gets" really is like his breaking point about all this separation from Ennis. 

I really don't see Ennis as having much of a fear of abandonment, and I think what you say in your post here (the contradiction) is the reason I say this.  I think Ennis' defining quality is his fear of who he is, this and his almost non-existent self-esteme drives everything else about him, especially his lonliness.  I also find it interesting about the lack of communication, but maybe not overly surprising: it was left to Jack to finally look for Ennis, and it took him four years to get around to it!  I mean, I hope I'm never in an emergency and relient on someone like these guys to call for help!

[David]

Well,  loneliness is something we all experience and can relate to in this movie.  Whether it is current or just feared.   I agree that Ennis almost embraces his loneliness.   Jack no doubt fears it.

   I myself haven't seen my Ennis since February 18th when we saw BBM together.   I must admit I miss him so much I can hardly stand it.   I'm trying to be good and keep away from him.   But It is hard.   (no pun intended)
 

[moremojo]

   I myself haven't seen my Ennis since February 18th when we saw BBM together.

That's the very date I saw BBM for the first time! It was one day before my thirty-ninth birthday anniversary, and I was accompanied by my mother and my sister. Little did I know that my life would change that evening.

[serious crayons]

I always interpreted that this was about sex because Jack first says: "You have no idea how bad it gets.  I... I'm not you, I can't make it on a couple of high-altitude f*cks once or twice a year...". 

I agree, Chris. Obviously overall Jack misses Ennis for more than just sex. But in reference to "high-altitude f*cks" and in "...then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needing somethin' I don't hardly never get," I think he is talking bout sex. These remarks are made largely in response to Ennis' threat about Mexico.

[Brown Eyes]

Really Amanda?  Not about sex?  I always interpreted that this was about sex

Oh yes, I do think it's about sex... I qualified my little post by saying that in addition to sex... he's also talking about companionship.  Sure, the sex is the main aspect of his complaint, but on another, maybe secondary level there's the companionship idea.  It's interesting to hear a real, outright and frank discussion of sex coming out of either of them.

[serious crayons]

It's interesting to hear a real, outright and frank discussion of sex coming out of either of them.

It's almost shocking (in a good way) at this point, because of the lack of direct acknowledgement of it for so much of the movie.

OK, now I finally have to bring something up I have been tempted to discuss for a while, either here or on the John Twist thread or maybe even the double-meanings thread, because I think the issue has come up in some of those places, too. I've put it off for a while, but ... (deep breath) ...

Why do you guys think of Ennis as so devoid of self-esteem?

I mean, I know he's no George Clooney in terms of self-regard.  I'm not saying his self-esteem towers far above averge or anything. But I just don't think of that as his defining characteristic. Yes, he's shy and closed down and reserved and nonconfrontational and a loner and self-conscious in the "people suspect" sense. But when people say things like he fears he really would get electrocuted at the power plant or can't believe Jack or Cassie or anybody would love him -- well, that doesn't quite match how I see him. I don't think that automatically follows from the other characteristics I've listed. I figured his power-plant remark was insincere, because he's actually quite competent at mechanical things. And it doesn't fit my view of his relationships, which seem more a matter of him fully accepting (if not sufficiently honoring) Jack's love, and in the case of Cassie not being all that interested, period. Around other people he knows well -- Alma pre-divorce, his daughters, Jack, even Monroe -- he seems pretty comfortable and confident.

But maybe I'm just not seeing something in him that others see. Anybody care to elaborate?

[JCinNYC2006]

I have to think about the self esteem question a bit more.  But the discussion about loneliness intrigues me.  I think that loneliness involves feeling cut off from someone else, as opposed to just being alone.  Ennis seems pretty clearly to be isolated from people, both emotionally and physically.  So when the relationship with Jack happens, then I think he has difficulty being intimate with Jack. 

They clearly have a bond and at times can be close and sustain that connectedness.  But Ennis has difficulty sustaining that closeness, like I think a lot of men.  Even when loneliness is overwhelming or feels unbearable, the feeling of being yourself with another person who sees who you are can be equally difficult to handle.  The intimacy they share that includes seeing each other as they are and loving each other for that can be a double edged sword when someone has self-image or self-esteem issues.

Not sure if this is coming out very clear, since it's almost 2.  But it's definitely one of those things I relate to that makes me so sad.

Juan

[Aussie Chris]

Oh yes, I do think it's about sex... I qualified my little post by saying that in addition to sex... he's also talking about companionship.  Sure, the sex is the main aspect of his complaint, but on another, maybe secondary level there's the companionship idea.  It's interesting to hear a real, outright and frank discussion of sex coming out of either of them.

Yes of course Amanda, I must have been off with the fairies last night.  For some reason I read you saying it wasn't about sex.  Sorry about that, I guess a part of me was looking for friendly disagreement.    Anyway, I watched our boys again last night and it struck me just how much is said in the argument scene that has never been spoken of before.  It may have been a "Hello McFly" moment, but I think all the analysis we've been doing came together at that moment:  How much of it is about homophobia versus the fear of rejection?  How much is it sex versus the need for companionship? Without the argument scene, none of these questions would exist because they are only revealed and explored there.  Another thing occurred to me, it's a good thing they picked this time to bring everything out into the open, after all it's the last time that Ennis sees Jack alive.

Anyway, back to loneliness.  To me Ennis never really looks lonely until the bus-station/Cassie scene.  I'm making a distinction here between "alone" and "lonely" for he is certainly alone before then.  But right there you almost want to put him out of his misery, he looks just so sad.

I've just noticed that you've posted again about whether Ennis really had low self-esteme.  I'll quickly reply here and come back if I get better ideas.  Basically, what you say about being "shy and closed down and reserved and nonconfrontational and a loner and self-conscious" all adds up to a person that is likely to have low self-esteme in my book.  But going further, I think self-esteme is intrisically linked to a feeling of worthiness.  Beyond all the issues of homophobia and conpanionship, Ennis has resigned himself to his fate because he doesn't believe that being with Jack is possible (for him), and he feels there is nothing that he can do about it so he is disempowered also.  He doesn't think he deserves Jack because it is not a relationship he is supposed to have.  None of these things on their own necessarily add up to low self-esteme, and maybe it's not even when looked at holistically.  Maybe we have assumed this on the basis of: if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck?

[Brown Eyes]

The self-esteem issue is a good one.  I'm at work and can't post much now... but I agree with Chris in that many things in the film, at least to me, add up to Ennis seeming like a person with low self-esteem.  I guess his sad little outburst "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere..." seems to be the most direct verbal thing to indicate this to me too.  I would think that if he really is tortured by a good deal of internalized homophobia that he would almost necessarily have self-esteem dilemmas.  I think battling his father's homophobia and his own sexuality/ emerging identity as gay would lead to lots of self-esteem issues (whether it's "low" self-esteem, I don't know in exact clinical terms... but it's certainly painful at least).