Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121658 times)

tiawahcowboy

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2006, 09:22:08 am »
Bedroll's big enough, if u get to hammerin'.

That line might be in the "Story to Screenplay" book (I cannot afford to buy that just yet) or one of the McMurtry-Ossana screenplay versions; but, it is not in the movie nor in Annie Proulx's original short story. I know it's not in the movie; because I have the DVD and I wanted to see if what you posted was correct.

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(From the short shory) "Too late to go out to them damn sheep," said Ennis, dizzy drunk on all fours one cold hour when the moon had notched past two. The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes. "Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks, ride out at first light."
   "Freeze your ass off when that fire dies down. Better off sleepin in the tent."
   "Doubt I'll feel nothin." But he staggered under canvas, pulled his boots off, snored on the ground cloth for a while, woke Jack with the clacking of his jaw.
   "Jesus Christ, quit hammerin and get over here. Bedroll's big enough," said Jack in an irritable sleep-clogged voice. It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably. Ennis ran full-throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock. Ennis jerked his hand away as though he'd touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him, nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed. They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack's choked "gun's goin off," then out, down, and asleep.
   Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and Jack butted against
him; without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.


I prefer the short story version of the First Night In The Tent, aka FNIT over the movie version of the scene.

In the movie version, there is no intimacy at all before Jack reaches for Ennis's hand and puts it on his erection. Since Ennis was not a person who would allow a person to touch him without his permission, especially in the way that Jack did in the movie, more than likely the Story Ennis would have given Jack Twist an attitude adjustment and slugged him with his fists instead of having sex with him.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2006, 12:32:00 pm »
So what do you think it was that Cassie did fall in love with?   ;)

Hey Meryl, didn't we discuss this a long time ago, on LJ? I could swear you were one of the people who answered the question for me! ;D

There's the "Ennis is a very attractive man" thing, like Katherine mentioned. He's especially attractive for someone into the Marlboro Man type.

And I don't remember who brought it up in LJ, but somebody made a really good point -- that there's just something about Ennis, maybe a sense that there's something beneath that reticent surface, that there's a man truly worth knowing locked away in there. I don't know if Cassie is the sort of perceptive person who would see that; she clearly doesn't seem to understand that not only is she the wrong key to unlock Ennis, she's the wrong type of key altogether. (Jack, on the other hand...)

And there's something else that I've thought of since that discussion. You know, Cassie works as a waitress in a bar; along with drinking and smoking, she probably deals with an awful lot of harrassment from men who might just like to rile up a pretty girl, and who probably frequently hint that they would like to have sex with her. And Ennis doesn't do that. She might read that as being a nice guy (along with being very reserved), rather than as simply not being interested in sex with pretty girls. (So by being uninterested, Ennis becomes desirable... at least in contrast to the many jerks in the world.)

(That last observation was brought to you courtesy of some memories I have, of being one of the few women in a cowboy/roughneck/geologist bar in the 80's. I didn't hang out there more than once; I was trying to be "one of the boys," and it sure didn't work. I can't imagine what it would have been like to work as a waitress there.)
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tiawahcowboy

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2006, 12:52:12 pm »
The actor who played Ennis in the movie was closer to the Marlboro Man type in the cigarette print ads and TV commercials; but, Annie Proulx's Ennis was not good looking at all. [BTW.

Would the Movie Riverton bar gal, aka Cassie, have been interested in AP's Ennis for his looks? Don't think so; but she could have been interested in him for his personality and how she felt in his presence.

The Movie Riverton bar gal, aka Cassie, really did not have any personal problems, IMO, from the way that she was portrayed on the screen. But, the Story Signal bar gal with no name, according to Ennis, "had some problems he didn't want." In regard to the latter, she was probably desperate for a husband.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2006, 01:08:07 pm »
But, the Story Signal bar gal with no name, according to Ennis, "had some problems he didn't want." In regard to the latter, she was probably desperate for a husband.

I agree. You know, at that time and place, working as a waitress in a small-town bar or restaurant, it isn't surprising that the woman at the bar was desperate for a husband. (That 1986 article in Newsweek that I mentioned up-thread really did capture the fears of many women in the early 80's - fears of being 30 and alone for the rest of their lives.) I'm glad times are changing in that respect, at least for many people; that sort of desperation is not good for either men or women.

And if the woman was desperate for a husband, a man who appeared uninterested in picking up waitresses might seem like a good catch. Again, not a good thing. Not for the unnamed woman, not for Ennis. But also not really surprising to me.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #84 on: June 01, 2006, 01:20:58 pm »
I like the point you make about changes in attitudes in society in general. That's exactly where my previous post about not necessarily managing to read the same as some other Brokaholics -  ie. one overriding influence only - into the Ennis/Alma exchange comes in.

Wow, lot to respond to, Mikaela! I agree that few lines in the movie should be read as meaning only one thing. And, you're right, Ennis' question is an ordinary, socially expected, fatherly thing to ask.

What makes me think it holds that additional Jack-related meaning are other elements: his long, anguished look out the window, as if the discussion reminds him of Jack; the fact that it's only the second time the word "love" is used (and the first time by Ennis -- a word that has previously been conspicuously absent); his asking whether Kurt loves Alma  rather than the more typical reverse, which draws attention to the line; his neglecting to ask many other questions; the sense that Ennis has gone through a transformation or redemption involving his understanding of his relationship with Jack. I'd like to think one of the effects of that transformation is that society has a bit less influence on him now than it had for the previous 20 years.

And to me Alma Jr's response seems just a tiny bit more touched than it might if she thought he were only asking about her and Kurt. Then she might just quickly say, "Sure he does, Daddy" or whatever. But there's this little extra pause where she peers really closely at him and then gets this kind of softened, sympathetic look, as if she realizes the question holds more than its apparent meaning. This is how I read it, anyway, though I realize her expression could also be interpreted as her just being glad he cares enough to ask.

As with Ennis' reaction to Cassie's "fun" remark, I just tend to search every significant moment or line for implications about Ennis and Jack, because even though their other relationships are also important, that's the one at the heart of the movie. And because there are so many times when references to their relationship do lie under the surface of scenes (as when they're dancing with women or spreading tar or whatever).

But again, I don't insist on my interpretation, either.  :)

As for "If you don't got nothin you don't need nothin" I interpret this line partly as (surprise!!!!) a reference to Jack!  :D Something to the effect of, he doesn't have Jack, so nothing else really matters. In this case, though, I'm not convinced that Alma takes it as anything more than the more obvious meaning: that living an austere, spare life simplifies things. For that matter, I'm not sure Ennis himself means it any other way than that.

I think of there being up to three levels of meaning for a significant line: 1) what it means on the surface, 2) what the character is really thinking and 3) what the filmmakers are trying to suggest. So to me "does he love you" means 1) the obvious, plus 2) I now realize Jack and I were in love. And "don't need nothin" has 1 and 3. "Husbands never want to dance with their wives" has 1, plus either 2 or 3 or both, depending on how much Lureen is deliberately implying. Of course, there can be multiple meaning at any level, as with "I swear."

And Mel, I was being kind of flippant (though certainly not insincere!), but I agree with this, too:

there's just something about Ennis, maybe a sense that there's something beneath that reticent surface, that there's a man truly worth knowing locked away in there.

Also with your point about Ennis not being the harassing type. He's very polite and agreeable (with the exception of his breakup style)!

tiawahcowboy

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2006, 01:21:29 pm »
In the movie, Ennis was on his way to the men's room when Cassie dragged him in the opposite direction to the dance floor. It would have been typical for a polite cowboy not tell a woman whom he did not personally know that he had to go to the restroom.

If he REALLY had to go to the restroom to get rid of the beer overflow and he didn't, he would have ended up with Levi's with a rather big dampt spot that had no connection with "the clear slick."

Oh, back in the 1960s, I knew a gal who went to state college to get herself a MRS. degree. But, she was as plain or plainer than Alma was portrayed in the movie; and she was just an average student grade point wise. I forget the name of the guy whom she married; but, his nickname was "Grasshopper" and he was from her home town and was never a college student. He looked more like the AP Ennis.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2006, 01:53:55 pm »
I'd like to think one of the effects of that transformation is that society has a bit less influence on him now than it had for the previous 20 years.

I'm a bit hesitant to talk about the references to religion in the movie. But, well... I think that the whole business about going to the Methodist church (Jenny singing, Monroe catering, etc etc) touches on society's influence on Ennis.

Let's see if I can trace this out. I think that the references to the Methodist church (none of which are in the story, I know ;) ) both serve to paint a realistic picture of the relationship between community and religion in a small town, and serve as a metaphor for Ennis's guilt about his sexuality.

The references that I can remember...

"You might be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity," which came right after Ennis's first reference to his parents being Methodists. Yes, there are plenty of other things that might be regarded as sins, but given that the first tent scene happens later that night, I read the line as reflecting Ennis's views of his own sexual desires.

The Lord's Prayer in the wedding scene, when the camera focuses on Ennis during "...and lead us not into temptation..." The message, to me, is that Ennis is desperately hoping to avoid slipping back into what he considers "sinning."

Before the 2nd fishing trip shown, when Ennis's daughters ask if he'll be back in time for the church picnic. Ennis doesn't want to sing. He's teasing the girls, and given the reputation of Methodists for singing, the line rings true to me. (My parents, they was Methodists... ;) ) But Ennis is also pulling away from the social life of the church. It's as if he doesn't entirely buy into the whole "sex with Jack is sinning" business... though he hasn't come to terms with his feelings about it, either.

Then there's the line about "that fire-and-brimstone crowd" that Mikaela brought up earlier in this thread. By that point, Ennis has pulled away from the social life entirely. It's as if he knows that society doesn't approve, but he doesn't feel that it's wrong, not in the same way that he used to. But he still cares what society thinks, enough to withdraw from society entirely.

Ennis plans to pick up Alma Jr. after church between the last two fishing scenes. I don't have an interpretation for this, except maybe that Ennis is fully withdrawn from the social life at this point.

And then, at the end of the movie, Ennis doesn't want to go to the wedding... but he eventually decides to brave it. As if, like you said, Katherine, Ennis no longer cares what society thinks about him. Not in the same way.

Maybe.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2006, 01:59:36 pm by nakymaton »
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tiawahcowboy

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2006, 02:17:02 pm »
It is interesting how the screenplay writers and the movie's final cut took the following comment even related to religion from the short story and really made a big deal of it.

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Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling "what I say-ay-ay," but he favored a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost, that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.

While an overwhelming majority of Pentecostals do believe that "hell" and/or the eternal place of punishment, aka "the lake of fire," exist, believing that is not even required for a person to be a Pentecostal or just merely believe in the Pentecost.

Every Believer who is called "Christian" by others or self-identifies with that name believes in the Pentecost.

As far as United Methodist Church people being a "fire and brimstone crowd" is concerned, I seriously doubt that. It is Pentecostals and Southern Baptists, more so the latter, who preach about fire and brimstone.

Back in the fall of 1965, I went to a Sunday evening service at the local UMC where I was teaching. The worship leader said they were going to learn a new song and it was "How Great Thou Art." I found that funny since Baptist and Pentecostals had been singing the song for more than 15 years.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2006, 04:02:51 pm »
I'm a bit hesitant to talk about the references to religion in the movie. But, well... I think that the whole business about going to the Methodist church (Jenny singing, Monroe catering, etc etc) touches on society's influence on Ennis.

Hmmm! Really interesting analysis, Mel. I've always wondered about all those church references, too. And I think you've found a good way to interpret them.

You catalogued the church references in Ennis' family well, (though I would also include the one where he tells his daughters "I wasn't no angel like you and Jenny here, didn't have no wings"). But also, what about the scene at the Twist ranch? That one seems heavy with religious implications, too.

When I mentioned Ennis' redemption at the end I wasn't thinking of it in the specifically religious sense, but maybe there's some religious symbolism going on in it, too. Others have noted that Mrs. Twist is the only character identified as strongly Christian. Yet Mrs. Twist is also the only one who knows about Jack and Ennis and accepts them. So maybe her acceptance, her hand on Ennis' shoulder, the cross on the wall behind her back when she talks to him, the sort of hallowed ambience in the house -- maybe all those signs of both her religious authority and her sympathy are also, in part, a signal of Ennis' redemption. Does that make sense? (My parents wasn't Methodists or any kind of Christian, so I'm kind of winging it here.)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2006, 05:14:57 pm »
You catalogued the church references in Ennis' family well, (though I would also include the one where he tells his daughters "I wasn't no angel like you and Jenny here, didn't have no wings"). But also, what about the scene at the Twist ranch? That one seems heavy with religious implications, too.

I think the "ain't no angel like you and Jenny here" fits in with the examples I gave. I, at least, would leave out the Twist ranch scene (or maybe discuss it in a different sort of discussion of religion). I'm thinking of church, and the church Ennis grew up in, as a sort of metaphor for community or society. (Well, not entirely metaphorical, I guess -- I mean, in a small town, the churches are a huge part of the culture, of the social glue. It's both a strength and a weakness -- church communities help people in times of need, and give people a way to connect to one another. But they also reinforce the sort of, hmmm, cultural sameness, maybe, that is a weakness of rural communities. Rural communities in particular have both a reputation for taking care of their own, and for isolating anyone who seems different.) So I see Ennis's willingness (or unwillingness) to participate in church activities as a measure of how he's relating to his society as a whole. First he's a part of it, and feels as his attraction to Jack is a sin. Then he withdraws from it, partly hinting that there's something wrong with him ("I ain't no angel"), but also partly hinting that there's something wrong with society ("that fire-and-brimstone crowd"). And then with his daughter's wedding, he's simply going to participate -- there aren't any references to sin or guilt. But he's going to be part of the community, in some sort of way.

I can't speak to Christian symbolism at the Twist ranch at all -- it doesn't resonate with me personally. Not saying that it isn't there, but that I'm not the right person to make sense of it.
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