Why the Lie?

[vkm91941]

what old west type cowboy would admit to herding sheep for a living?

Ennis was a poor boy from a poor ranch in Wyoming..It's 1963.  It has nothing to do with being an old west type cowboy.  There's no way he disappeared without explanation or without writing to her for 3 months.  They were planning to marry, Alma knew where Ennis was and what he was doing to earn the money so they could marry.

I always thought that the "rolling his own" comment was in reference to masturbation.

 

When one is rolling his own, it has to do with buying his own pouch of smoking tobacco and own cigarette papers and hand-rolling his own cigarettes.

Well in Missouri in 1925 per my Dad and still in Montana and Wyoming 1985 per my own experiences the expression rolling your own could mean making your own cigarettes or male masturbation.

Oh, my its really interesting how so many women think they understand everything there is to know about men, including how they think and what they do with themselves while they are thinking.

Hey, watch it, this is a friendly forum and misogynistic statements only make you look like the stereotypical gay male who hates women. Not only that it's a mean spirited manipulative snipe at the other poster whom you know to be female.  You're the one who brought up internet etiquette this is bad form.  As is dismissing other posters comments because you assume that English may not be the posters first language.

Lets keep it light, positive and keep it fun.  Thanks

[Mikaela]

English is in fact not my first language either. Though I've only ever participated in English-speaking parts of BBM fandom, I've still bought the recently published local language translated version of Close Range. It's been published by a well-reputed publishing house that certainly can be expected to use experienced translators who'll manage to capture and preserve ambiguities and colloquial nuances necessary to the story in their translation.
"Wrang it out" is translated unambiguously into a word that *only* means "masturbated". "Rollling his own" is translated into an expression that means "doing manual work".  Obviously the translator in question didn't have any doubt what the guys were talking about there, - and neither have I.

[tiawahcowboy]

Ennis was a poor boy from a poor ranch in Wyoming..It's 1963.  It has nothing to do with being an old west type cowboy.  There's no way he disappeared without explanation or without writing to her for 3 months.  They were planning to marry, Alma knew where Ennis was and what he was doing to earn the money so they could marry.

I made the original comment because of the actual books written by Old West cowboys, some of whom hid the fact that they did herd sheep sometime in their lives after they got ranch work. We really do not even know how Ennis met Alma Beers in the first place. It is almost like Ennis felt he had to marry her. We do know that it was not because she was pregnant. Since Ennis got his job with Aguirre because he signed up with "Farm and Ranch Employment" (possibly a state agency), he could have just told her that he got a job for the summer working on a ranch.

Well in Missouri in 1925 per my Dad and still in Montana and Wyoming 1985 per my own experiences the expression rolling your own could mean making your own cigarettes or male masturbation.

Not disagreeing with you here, Victoria . . . Well, it also means, as far as gay men are concerned, one does not have to purchase certain things if he agrees to have sex with a man who will buy him or give him cigarettes, beer, drugs, etc..

Hey, watch it, this is a friendly forum and misogynistic statements only make you look like the stereotypical gay male who hates women. Not only that it's a mean spirited manipulative snipe at the other poster whom you know to be female.  You're the one who brought up internet etiquette this is bad form.  As is dismissing other posters comments because you assume that English may not be the posters first language.

Ma'am, I have had non-American women on various Brokeback Forums and Yahoo Groups tell me I have been wrong about something and they had no idea what an American expression that I had used even meant. Oh, I don't hate women at all. I get along with women in real life no matter what their sexual orientation might me.

My comments towards certain women in BetterMost is the fact that just like in those other cyber-situations they think they know men better than men do and almost every woman who has made that statement is in a heterosexual relationship with a man.

Lets keep it light, positive and keep it fun.  Thanks

Trying to do that here, that's why I let Phillip know about people seeming to be more interested in harassing me than discussing the topic of discussion.

[tiawahcowboy]

English is in fact not my first language either. Though I've only ever participated in English-speaking parts of BBM fandom, I've still bought the recently published local language translated version of Close Range. It's been published by a well-reputed publishing house that certainly can be expected to use experienced translators who'll manage to capture and preserve ambiguities and colloquial nuances necessary to the story in their translation.
"Wrang it out" is translated unambiguously into a word that *only* means "masturbated". "Rollling his own" is translated into an expression that means "doing manual work".  Obviously the translator in question didn't have any doubt what the guys were talking about there, - and neither have I.

Well, "wrang it out" can be related to the putting of one thoughts through the wringer trying to figure out exactly what something meant or why some situation happened with the thinking person not understanding why. Ennis Del Mar did not understand why it took him at least a hundred times when thinking about sex with a guy, it was always Jack Twist. He did not have to masturbate.

Back in the 1950s and 1960s, if a person had a washing machine at home, it was the type with a wringer attached and there were two rollers in the wringer that one put the clothes through to wring as much water as possible out of them. We had one which had a gasoline motor and we generally either used it out side or on the back porch. We had one similar to the pic below; but, it had a much larger tub than that one.

Since I took courses in Spanish and French in university, I also know that some expressions in those languages did not translate too well into English. In some cases, American English had no expression comparable to the original language because the expression was related to something that only a Native speaker would understand. So, rather than just attempt to mentally translate/interpret the original into English, it was better to just try to think in the original language.  Sort of OT here; but, in 1990 I was a US Census Enumerator who did follow-up interviews at residences of those who improperly filled out their original forms, never mailed them in or never received them in the first place. While I did have the official Spanish language questionnaires, they were written in standardized Spanish for those who were actually studied Spanish grammar in classes which was in their first language.

But, most of the people with whom I talked were from Mexico and they did not have many formal classes in their native language. Since I had learned a number of "border-slang" expressions, which were called "bizcochos," "biscuits" in English translations, meaning they were hispanicized English words, I had to substitue the "biscuits" for the formal words so they would not what I was talking about.

[serious crayons]

I know that more sensible minds than mine have urged that we set this issue aside and get on with the real topic of the thread. But I just have to make this point (as I did once before when this same topic came up with a poster going by the name of Joe). To insist that Annie Proulx would have used such a conspicuous and colorful idiom without realizing that 90 percent of the people reading it would interpret it to mean something else -- particularly something sexual -- is to give Annie Proulx WAAAAAAYYYY too little credit.

No decent literary writer would make that kind of mistake, not once but at least three times (wrang it out, rolling his own, stemming the rose). And Annie Proulx is an excellent literary writer.

[opinionista]

Since I took courses in Spanish and French in university, I also know that some expressions in those languages did not translate too well into English. In some cases, American English had no expression comparable to the original language because the expression was related to something that only a Native speaker would understand. So, rather than just attempt to mentally translate/interpret the original into English, it was better to just try to think in the original language.  Sort of OT here; but, in 1990 I was a US Census Enumerator who did follow-up interviews at residences of those who improperly filled out their original forms, never mailed them in or never received them in the first place. While I did have the official Spanish language questionnaires, they were written in standardized Spanish for those who were actually studied Spanish grammar in classes which was in their first language.

But, most of the people with whom I talked were from Mexico and they did not have many formal classes in their native language. Since I had learned a number of "border-slang" expressions, which were called "bizcochos," "biscuits" in English translations, meaning they were hispanicized English words, I had to substitue the "biscuits" for the formal words so they would not what I was talking about.

This doesn't make you a language expert. I'm sure the ones who translated this story into Spanish or any other language, knew how to do their job.

[nakymaton]

But imagine him even having to say the word "Brokeback" to her, given all he must associate with that word. She would never guess anything from it, but it would feel like a violation to him. (The only time he ever does say it to anyone, Lureen immediately grasps its significance.) He keeps the information to himself less to avoid hurting her or to let something slip about his sexuality than to prevent Alma's awareness from intruding on his memories of that beautiful sacrosanct time.

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

[vkm91941]

I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)

I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

You could be on to something here Mel.  That summer on Brokeback changed something in Ennis forever, even though he dutifully went home and married Alma like he said he would.  Perhaps he wanted to keep everything "Real" about him and Jack, and that summer just for himself in order to keep it precious and unpolluted in his memory.

[tiawahcowboy]

This doesn't make you a language expert. I'm sure the ones who translated this story into Spanish or any other language, knew how to do their job.

Does two college degrees in Spanish major with a French minor make me sort of an expert on those two languages? I did quite a few literature courses in those languages while earning a Bachelor of Arts in Education and a Master of Education. For each degree, both Spanish and Education were my majors. Some of the literature was written in the regional dialects of Spain and in the Hispanic language countries of North and South America, too.

If you have the book that is translated into Spanish, it should tell you at the front of the book who did the translating. You can either find it on the Title page or the next page behind it.

Does your book have the following in it?

AUTOR          Proulx, E. Annie  
TITULO         En terreno vedado : historias de Wyoming / Annie Proulx ; [traducción de María Corniero]  
PUBLICAC      Madrid : Siglo XXI de España editores, 2001
 
 

[Mikaela]

I do think Ennis didn't tell Alma anything of emotional importance to him about his summer job on the mountain; - but I do think he had to tell her something. Returning to his fiancee after months away, he had to say something, tell the barest outline of how the summer went. He and Alma were on speaking terms back then after all - however taciturn Ennis was! So I've imagined he told as little as possible, kept to the general truth about the sheep and the weather etc. - and changed the description of the guy he was working with. Of course I don't think he'd elaborate - just a comment or two to make him into someone entirely else, not very interesting, not worthy of further talk or descriptions. (Perhaps he used the Basque as his model for that?   ) But then, when the card from Jack arrives, he can't under any circumstance suddenly go against the previous white lies and say this is the guy I was sheepherding with. He has to find some other tale to tell.

(Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)

I like this very much, but he does say "Jack, he rodeos, mostly." And after that whole rodeo fuck-up sequence and the belt buckle and everything you'd think he'd keep the rodeoing part of Jack's life pretty sacrosanct, too?

Though it's probably unimaginative of me, I think the "fishing" thing was just a spur of the moment idea to give Alma *something*, something realistic -  without indicating he'd actually ever worked with Jack. Ennis leaves the room in a hurry - he sure doesn't want her to see his face there - but also it precludes further immediate questions concerning where and when they knew each other. I wonder if he made up some further couple of details to the fishing buddy tale to tell her, just in case she asked again?