Author Topic: Why are the poor, poor?  (Read 124419 times)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #260 on: May 09, 2008, 03:54:46 pm »
oh, come on. now that is Jesuitical parsing if I have ever seen it!

Those who are on assistance of any type are much more likely to vote Democrat. It is no accident of fate that some of the safest Democrat districts in the US are in the inner cities with a large pop on assistance. Lets dispense with such silliness as trying to dodge the economic motivating factors in voting decisions, and the very real impact that being on assistance has on voting decisions. People tend to vote their pocketbook, and this is the control that the entrenched welfare system has over a segment of the electorate.

Hunh? Are you not reading the posts you're quoting?   ???  That's what Crayons said.

Ooops, forgot, I'm being Ignored. ...  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #261 on: May 09, 2008, 03:56:18 pm »
Thanks for the personal swipe that is only an opinion!  ;) :-X ;D

Ah, such perfection! I thought Oprah was the only one who thought she was God!  ;D ;D ;D

If the single woman had not felt comfortable, in the first place, that a child she could not afford would be covered by the broken system, she likely would have made better choices.  ;)



exactly, and I would add if the man knew that there were real consequences for abandoning the care and feeding of his children to the tax payers, he may not have dogged the woman and split.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #262 on: May 09, 2008, 03:57:23 pm »
This exactly supports Jeff's point, which you appear to have missed.

If the woman DOESN'T make better choices, the child will suffer. Should the child have made better choices?




society should have made better choices and not created a system which encourages this type of behavior!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #263 on: May 09, 2008, 03:58:47 pm »
the above posts are a fine indication of how confused many posts are:

1) seriouscrayons uses my quote to suggest it supports a point by JW

2) JW salutes seriouscrayons for stating this opinion.

3) JW then refers to the same quote as bizarre thinking.


Very, very strange.  ;D ;D ;D

Kaiser my brother, it ain't strange at all, it is perfectly normal when dealing with liberalthink.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #264 on: May 09, 2008, 04:08:44 pm »
To me that has almost been a waste of time, the only method of extracting the inextractable problem of the underclass is radical reform.

1) get the issue away from the feds
2) reform secondary education towards a two track system
3) allow mandatory birth control for welfare recipients
4) make the men who father children and abandon those children either pay up, or ship out to a prison farm
5) allow mandatory workfare for recipients
6) rest control away from the permanent welfare bureaucracy by allow the tax payers to vote in yearly referenda on any changes needed in the programs

Tell you what, the preceding proposal for radical welfare reform actually speaks to something that puzzles me about Gay Conservatives/Gay Republicans in general.

It's true that it is possible to be both fiscally conservative and socially liberal (I've been known myself to squeeze a nickel till the buffalo defecates  ;) ), but it seems to me that welfare reform is the arena where the fiscal and the social come together. So what puzzles me is how anyone can believe that people who are of a mindset to espouse such a program of welfare reform as Broketrash proposes can also be brought to approve any form of gay marriage.

Granted, gay marriage and welfare reform are not necessarily related issues, but I'm not talking here about issues per se. I'm talking about mindset. And it just boggles my imagination that anyone could believe that any straight/heterosexual voter or legislator who would favor such a draconian program of welfare reform could ever be brought to be socially liberal enought to vote for or accept any form of gay marriage.

For what it's worth. ...

Unless perhaps the gays who are marrying are very rich, very white, and very in the closet. (Rich Uncle Harold and his "friend" Bruce are like that.  ;) )
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #265 on: May 09, 2008, 04:12:15 pm »
society should have made better choices and not created a system which encourages this type of behavior!

Typical heartless Conservatism. Let the children suffer for the sins of the parents. Sad, really sad.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #266 on: May 09, 2008, 04:14:18 pm »
Kaiser my brother, it ain't strange at all, it is perfectly normal when dealing with liberalthink.

Nice of you to support your buddy in his misreading/misunderstanding.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #267 on: May 09, 2008, 04:27:18 pm »
Hmmm This thread started out as a serious discussion of why people were poor and looking for possible solutions to help us all.

Somehow it has gotten sidetracked into a contest of who is right and who is wrong about social welfare reform.

This competition to be right makes good sport if that's what you are after, but it helps neither the poor nor our pocketbooks.

I feel that certain people have arrived at "the correct" solutions before we even identified what the problems and their causes were.

Is anybody still interested in understanding what's going on?  In understanding the problem before we solve it?  (Personally I get enough premature half-baked solutions thrown at me at work already, it would be nice to actually go into something in depth.)

Or are we just going to have another "conservative" vs "liberal" free for all?

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #268 on: May 09, 2008, 04:31:25 pm »
 ???  JW, it boggles a logical mind that you would claim to be misread when your exact words are used to quote.

It further boggles the logical mind that you would claim to be misunderstood when you say what you mean.

If we cannot believe what you write is accurate and we cannot believe what you compose means what it says....what the heck is up with that?

Sheeeez.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Why are the poor, poor?
« Reply #269 on: May 09, 2008, 04:46:22 pm »
Hunh? Are you not reading the posts you're quoting?   ???  That's what Crayons said.

Thanks, Jeff! You're right, and I was about to post the same thing. Broketrash disputed what I said ... by repeating what I said!  :laugh:

How come you and I have to spend all our time nowadays explaining each other's posts -- not even just defending, but actually explaining -- to HerrKaiser and broketrash?  ;D



Those who are on assistance of any type are much more likely to vote Democrat. It is no accident of fate that some of the safest Democrat districts in the US are in the inner cities with a large pop on assistance. Lets dispense with such silliness as trying to dodge the economic motivating factors in voting decisions, and the very real impact that being on assistance has on voting decisions. People tend to vote their pocketbook, and this is the control that the entrenched welfare system has over a segment of the electorate.

What Jeff said. Writing with such an indignant tone, you're basically repeating what I wrote (emphasis added):

But when they DO vote, do many poor people vote for Democrats? Sure. Just like many rich people vote for Republicans. As a rule (with some obvious exceptions) people tend to vote for the candidates who they believe are most concerned with their interests. I don't see that as some kind of secret underhanded scheme on the part of either party. Bush is quite open about whom he considers his "base."  And that's why HE does the favors HE does. Nobody would mistake our president for someone who goes around worrying about poor folks.

Broketrash, sometimes I wonder if you actually read my posts before you attempt to dismantle my arguments.

Why on earth would I want to "dodge the economic motivating factors in voting decisions"? Economic factors are unquestionably among the biggest motivators in voting decisions. With the exception, that is, of voting by affluent Democrats and middle- or lower-income Republicans -- two groups who for some reason vote against their own economic interests.  ;D  Apparently they're more motivated by their views on social issues such as abortion and gay marriage.



Lets all right now start weeping for the starving children of 18th cent Ireland who have been dead for 280 years!

Oh, right. The literature of the past could not possibly have any relevance or interest in the present, unless of course the two situations at least as closely parallel as in 18th-century Ireland and Darfur. Otherwise, it's all rubbish. Which eliminates ... well, pretty much all literature. But that's OK, because it leaves us so much more time for reading those fascinating right-wing screeds about how liberals are secretly actually fascists because both like organic vegetables!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



exactly, and I would add if the man knew that there were real consequences for abandoning the care and feeding of his children to the tax payers, he may not have dogged the woman and split.

society should have made better choices and not created a system which encourages this type of behavior!

And by my count, that's officially three and four times you guys have refused to acknowledge the question that Jeff and I have raised about how this policy of punishing parents for their deeds will affect their children. Guess concern for the well-being of kids is just more of that silly liberalthink, hunh?



Or are we just going to have another "conservative" vs "liberal" free for all?

Yes.

 :)