Author Topic: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!  (Read 12231 times)

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2008, 05:14:51 pm »
So fan fiction may annoy her, but is she so coldhearted as to be, not even slightly moved by how many people's lives have been touched and in many ways vastly enhanced by BBM. I remember at the time of the press junkets, she was fullsome in her praise of the film, even saying Heath became Ennis.She seemed so genuinley pleased by the film and the reactions to it.

I recall similar praise she had for the film.  Now I remember as well some friends who lived in Lander (not too far from Riverton) who moved back to Rochester who said the entire state of Wyoming was up in arms about Brokeback Mountain when it was published and released as a movie.  So I also have to wonder if at least some of the problem Proulx has comes from the locals who have hassled her since the movie was released.  A lot of anti-gay religious people have loudly protested her on a regular basis, and there have been some drive-by incidents by her home (and in many parts of Wyoming, the police simply don't respond to calls after 2am unless it is something very serious).  So the wanting to left alone MAY have more to do with her notoriety with the locals.

One other thing I am dwelling on today is just how she is getting this supposed avalanche of BBM rewrites "gay men" are sending her.  I presume the vast majority of her mail is coming in care of her agent or publisher, not being sent to her home.  Any agent or publisher can easily filter out the annoying mail and forward things she would find relevant or pertinent.  I am coming to question in my mind whether she is really spending her free time reading fan fiction stories sent to her.  More plausible is if her agent or reps told her people were doing this, and she anecdotally trashed the idea, but how does one get forced to endure fan fiction?  Is this something the warden of Gitmo needs to be told?

Frankly, I suspect most people are writing their stories and publishing them online, not purposefully trying to send them to her and her agent and publisher are the ones more up in arms about it.

When I started BetterMost, I found it frustrating that often people would dwell far more on the story instead of the message of the story and taking that energy felt from the impact and using it to provoke some positive changes in one's life.  That is what I tried to do.  But I've learned to relax about that because everyone's interpretation and "message" doesn't fit into my preconceived notion of what the story should mean.  The very sense of community built on the story is a positive change. 

Proulx doesn't like people changing the ending.  I don't like people only dwelling on every teeny tiny factoid about the film and forgetting about what the story says and the impact it has.  As soon as I realized why people do those kinds of things, and realized that positive change doesn't always come the way I might expect it to, I stopped getting bent out of shape about it.  I hope she can do the same.

And I frankly wouldn't have read one thing she wrote had it not been for Brokeback MountainThe Shipping News turned up here in one of the local movie art houses (where they show the obnoxiously dull independent Victorian love dramas set in the 19th century and impenetrable foreign films) and just from the previews, I dismissed it as boring and not worth my attention.  To me, a western story of any kind would be an anathema.  The very thought the first vacation I would take with John in 20 years of our relationship would be to fly to Calgary and spend 10 days in the Canadian Rockies would be the most ridiculous concept ever... until I spent time with BBM and got to meet so many people from here who shared my love for it.  So she changed my life forever with a short story.  That's near impossible for Mr. Cynical Me - so if she managed to have that kind of impact on me, it's no surprise she would stun a significant readership who saw her original story, and floor the entire world when that story became an amazingly successful film.
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2008, 09:03:52 pm »
    Ms. Proulx could do well to take a page from J.K. Rowlings book and treat her dedicated followers and
fans with more respect and caring.  After all she has to live or die by her future fans and readers.  If she
allows her ego and attitude to alienate them, as this interview has shown, she will be at a difficult place in
her future to get people to care about her new stuff.  I personally am not that thrilled by her stories in
general.  I find them well executed and documented as to the surroundings.  However they are such
a great and depressing group of tales, as to almost preclude anyone that has a great deal of compassion to find them very hard to get thru.  I personally could not even finish her book of which BBM was one.  It was such
a bummer..  I find she has a gigantic ego and self centered personality.  Maybe she should as Marcia said,
just write for her own enjoyment and gratification.  She finds it so easily done,that it would surely be a
good pastime, that would not interfere with her private life and cause her any undue fame. 
   I found her snide remarks and humorous reference to the pilot crashing his plane to be the most disturbing of all.  I can understand the love of privacy, however to wish for someones death in order to achieve it is abhorrant to say the least. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 01:22:13 am by ifyoucantfixit »



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Marge_Innavera

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2008, 11:26:10 am »
I recall similar praise she had for the film.  Now I remember as well some friends who lived in Lander (not too far from Riverton) who moved back to Rochester who said the entire state of Wyoming was up in arms about Brokeback Mountain when it was published and released as a movie.  So I also have to wonder if at least some of the problem Proulx has comes from the locals who have hassled her since the movie was released.  A lot of anti-gay religious people have loudly protested her on a regular basis, and there have been some drive-by incidents by her home (and in many parts of Wyoming, the police simply don't respond to calls after 2am unless it is something very serious).  So the wanting to left alone MAY have more to do with her notoriety with the locals.

But that raises a question as to why she would then take it out on her fans, most of whom (in terms of population patterns alone) don't even live in Wyoming.

Quote
One other thing I am dwelling on today is just how she is getting this supposed avalanche of BBM rewrites "gay men" are sending her.  I presume the vast majority of her mail is coming in care of her agent or publisher, not being sent to her home.  Any agent or publisher can easily filter out the annoying mail and forward things she would find relevant or pertinent.  I am coming to question in my mind whether she is really spending her free time reading fan fiction stories sent to her.  More plausible is if her agent or reps told her people were doing this, and she anecdotally trashed the idea, but how does one get forced to endure fan fiction?  Is this something the warden of Gitmo needs to be told?

LOL, this statement is in the "why didn't I think of that?" category, and I don't recall seeing it posted in other discussions about this, but it raises a legit question.  How was she getting these pesky fanfics?  It's probably possible that some skillful hackers found it on the Internet but that then raises the question of why these fanfic authors/hackers were all gay men.  And where are all these gay male fanfic writers?  There are some whose stories I've read but from what little I knew of the authors they didn't seem likely to do that. On the other hand, it would make sense if these supposedly offensive fanfics have just been taken off a website -- the screen names of authors don't always give any hint as to gender or sexual orientation.

Quote
Second, I am always surprised by the lack of graciousness some people have in accepting the praise and attention they receive from people whose lives were literally shaken, if not permanently changed, by their work.  Of course, I'm not in a position to really understand and relate to the attention Ms. Proulx has gotten, and maybe it has been far more than I can imagine, but why is she surprised as a published author and willing participant in the adaptation of her stories to the big screen that she has gotten lavish praise and attention for her work?  I can understand her frustration by the use and misuse of her Brokeback Mountain story by various players in the American culture war, where political posturing crashes headfirst into artistic venues, but this should not be a surprise.  Proulx has consistently been offended by the "gay cowboy" pop culture reference to her story, and she has made it a point to correct the record at every opportunity, which is valuable.  But Proulx also will have to understand that pop culture always boils down concepts and trashes nuance.  On some things, you just have to understand the reality and not get too bent out of shape about it.

It is a fact, though, that few people enjoy fame; most of us would far rather be rich than famous.  Of course, the ideal thing would be to be fabulously rich during your lifetime, and world-famous about two days after you pass on.   ;D

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2008, 01:20:53 pm »
    Ms. Proulx could do well to take a page from J.K. Rowlings book and treat her dedicated followers and
fans with more respect and caring.  After all she has to live or die by her future fas and readers.  If she
allows her ego and attitude to alienate them, as this interview has shown, she will be at a difficult place in
her future to get people to care about her new stuff.  I personally am not that thrilled by her stories in
general.  I find them well executed and documented as to the surroundings.  However they are such
a great and depressing group of tales, as to almost preclude anyone that has a great deal of compassion to find them very hard to get thru.  I personally could not even finish her book of which BBM was one.  It was such
a bummer..  I find she has a gigantic ego and self centered personality.  Maybe she should as Marcia said,
just write for her own enjoyment and gratification.  She finds it so easily done,that it would surely be a
good pastime, that would not interfere with her private life and cause her any undue fame. 
   I found her snide remarks and humorous reference to the pilot crashing his plane to be the most disturbing of all.  I can understand the love of privacy, however to wish for someones death in order to achieve it is abhorrant to say the least. 


Janice, I agree with a lof of your sentiment here.  I often find myself unable to finish her stories and/or I find them amazingly bleak.  She's obviously a tremendously gifted writer.  And, BBM is brilliant not only for its characters and plot, etc., but also for her wonderful talent for description, dialogue and unique turns-of-phrase.  I certainly don't mean to imply that I don't recognize her gift for writing.  Basically, a lot of it is simply not to my personal taste (which is clearly very subjective).

I've read the Shipping News (a long time ago) and I recall I liked it.  But, like you, I still haven't even read all the stories in Close Range.  I bought Bad Dirt and Postcards sort of as a nod towards building a collection of relevant Brokie things, but I haven't read either of those yet either.

For me BBM is a unique circumstance in the context of almost anything (and also in the context of Proulx's other writing).

It saddens me that she feels this way about her story and about fans of BBM.  But, it really is true that a story/film with such huge popularity inevitably will take on a life of its own.  While surely she's entitled to her own opinions and reactions, her unhappiness with Brokies doesn't at all lessen my love for BBM (the film or story) and it obviously doesn't make me second guess the Brokie community either. 



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline tamarack

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2008, 09:46:15 am »
I'm going to try this once more. I just lost my whole post. (I hate it when that happens.) This one will be a lot shorter, to your benefit!

Thanks for posting this here, Phillip. I've been waiting for the weekend to listen to it.

I'm not hearing the same thing here that some of you are. If someone had written a letter or sent an email about the life-changing effect of the story I think we would have heard a different Annie, but that wasn't the point of the interview. Her "I wish I never wrote it" comment was a bit harsh (LOL) but the comment about the "cowboys" probably set her off a little bit. 

She lives out in the middle of nowhere for a reason; it isn't an act. This is who she is (at certain times on certain days). I'm not sure why she even does the interviews, to be honest.

At any rate, I'm not taking this as a personal affront to my affection for Jack and Ennis.

Offline BelAir

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2008, 12:30:14 pm »
First, there are a number of discussions on this subject, and predictably, a writer making statements that arguably amount to spitting on one's fans has been referred to as "blunt", "not mincing words", "cantankerous" and "opinionated."  Unfortunately, none of that precludes the objects of the verbal spitting from saying exactly what they think -- hostile 'honesty' tends to produce responses in kind.

Second, some of these statements remind me of popular musicians of many years standing who go on tour and insist on playing only their new stuff.  That almost always ends badly.  The cantakerous, blunt and opinionated truth is that works of art, when they develop a significant following and a lot of fame, might be subject to legal copyright but in a sense the artist loses control of them.  They might not like that, and might react with peevish and spiteful remarks in public but that won't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

I'd be curious to see what stories these purported gay male writers have sent her -- most of the fanfic I read is written by women.

Finally, I think I've posted this elsewhere in the forum, but if I ever get the opportunity to meet Annie Proulx or hear her speak, I'll feel that I have to keep being a Brokeback fan a deep-dark secret.  Ironic considering the subject matter.

I was thinking maybe someone is just showing her copies of fanfic material.  i.e. she has no idea who is/isn't writing them, and is just assuming, noone is actually 'informing' her of much, just saying 'here, read this...' 

sometimes it can be hard to see beyond the own world you've created, if that makes any sense?
"— a thirst for life, for love, and for truth..."

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2008, 10:33:13 pm »
Thank you Phillip, for posting this interview. It was very moving hearing Proulx read her own words.

When I first heard of her recent comments about BBM I was not surprised. I had heard about the cease and desist letters. That she sees the attention directed at her because of this one story as a curse, well I bet it is. She describes herself as private and her experience with them happened long before the rest of us encountered these two ranch hands. She has written about the power they have in her "Getting Moovied" essay, and I don't presume to know her mind but I know a little bit about my own. In my mind they are cut of the same cloth as Holden Caufield, as Paul Bunyon, as Uncle Remus. A story so compelling it inters humanities psyche and its characters so compelling our minds find them useful in the stories we tell ourselves. Much of this, I think, comes from the movie and not the short story. She even admits this is often then case in said essay.

Proulx gave life to something very powerful, and with any act of creation there is a price to pay. This story has impacted her life in a way very different than our experience with it. How do you prepare for something like that? A private person who for years has scratched out a living writing technical articles, as anonymous as that ranch hand at the Mint Bar, and then one day your name is on the tongues of millions. I think she has done pretty good, I won't judge her. For better or worse she will always be known by the lowest common denominator as the author of "The Gay Cowboy Story". Type cast, with segments of the population passing various judgement upon her, never bothering, or even trying to read her other works. I would be resentful too. (One of the things I thought as the interview started was that they are stuck on those two, BBM and the Shipping News. I think me and Front Ranger are the only two people I know who have read Postcards and that is a shame. A damn shame.)

Bottom line: Annie Proulx is not Brokeback Mountain. Let be.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2008, 11:13:52 pm »
nice post, Truman...well said.

Offline Br. Patrick

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2008, 05:54:50 am »
After reading all of your comments, I decided NOT to listen to the entire Broadcast.  For me, Brokeback Mountain is a life changing FILM and how it came to be matters little.  As for fan-fiction, as long as we share it among ourselves, there shouldn't be any problem.  Jess' ending, read by Rodney Giles on Brokenback Mountain in Wyoming, gives the closure to me that I needed, bringing me the familiar BBM  feeling of gut-wrenching tears.  And really, it isn't Annie's story anymore..  We all have incorporated the lessons taught by the incredible film into our own lives.  I'm not done yet and I suspect many others aren't either.

Give her a few years as she watches the film turn into a genuine longterm Classic of American Cinema.  THEN ask her what she thinks.. if anyone cares.

br. p

For those who are unaware, BetterMost Sage Daniel's book is out and available at amazon.com.    "DREAMFILM Brokeback Mountain Explored" is a treasure~!  and note that it is dreamFILM not dreamShortStory...

http://www.amazon.com/Dreamfilm-Brokeback-Mountain-Daniel-Bates/dp/1425750001/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223302034&sr=8-1


« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 10:22:27 am by Br. Patrick »
Lean on me, let our hearts beat in time,
Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long.
Who cares where we go on this rugged old road
In a world that may say that we're wrong.

...Cause I know - A love that will never grow old.

Gustavo Santaolalla & Bernie Taupin

injest

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Re: BBC World Service Book Club - Annie Proulx's Newest Revelations!
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2008, 08:31:22 am »
After reading all of your comments, I decided NOT to listen to the entire Broadcast.  For me, Brokeback Mountain is a life changing FILM and how it came to be matters little.  As for fan-fiction, as long as we share it among ourselves, there shouldn't be any problem.  Jess' ending, read by Rodney Giles on Brokenback Mountain in Wyoming, gives the closure to me that I needed, bringing me the familiar BBM  feeling of gut-wrenching tears.   And really, it isn't Annie's story anymore..  We all have incorporated the lessons taught by the incredible film into our own lives.  I'm not done yet and I suspect many others aren't either.

Give her a few years as she watches the film turn into a genuine longterm Classic of American Cinema.  THEN ask her what she thinks.. if anyone cares.

br. p

For those who are unaware, BetterMost Sage Daniel's book is out and available at amazon.com.    "DREAMFILM Brokeback Mountain Explored" is a treasure~!  and note that it is dreamFILM not dreamShortStory...

http://www.amazon.com/Dreamfilm-Brokeback-Mountain-Daniel-Bates/dp/1425750001/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223302034&sr=8-1




oh, THANK YOU, Brother....That means a lot to me for you to say that.