Author Topic: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault  (Read 71672 times)

Offline dly64

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Me?  Uh, I, uh, don't know...

How about discussing the "quit" each other idea. I had mentioned it before and gave you an idea about what I meant by "quit". You were going to process and respond. So .... I'm interested in hearing your POV!!!  ;D
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline Brown Eyes

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Well, here I am Friends,

I've been "lurking" on this thread for a very long time... Something I never do around here on BetterMost (as most of you know I usually talk a blue streak).  It's been amazing watching all these complex and long discussions go back and forth.   I went and answered the first questionnaire in Katherine's new thread... so my opinions about a lot of the earlier discussions here are registered over there.  I'm in the camp of people who believe that Ennis is gay, knows he's gay and even knows that he loves Jack quite early in the film (even if he doesn't have the language to articulate these things).  I think this tension- between Ennis/Jack/audience all sensing, palpably these things (the love, the pressures of being gay in Riverton, WY and Childress, TX) and the problem of not having things spelled out concretely- is one of the aspects of the film that is so powerful.   We along with Jack's ghost are still waiting for Ennis to complete his sentence at the end of the film.  And, it's interesting that Jack never was able to "swear" or say "I love you" either... yet I don't think we have the same questions in our heads about Jack as we do about Ennis.  Like the Ennis questionnaire, it would be interesting to have an identical questionnaire about Jack and his understanding of his homosexuality.  Why don't we have the same questions about him?

My urge to see an equivalent Jack questionnaire leads to one of the reasons I haven't jumped in here so far.  I generally like to avoid discussions that pit Jack against Ennis or foster a sense of competition between them.  I think the point is that they have to be taken together with equal weight.  Proulx said you can't have Ennis without Jack.  Not that we always need to run to Proulx for insight... but I think that one is very important.  If we're talking about fault and blame as to why their story took such a frustrating and tragic turn... I think we need to look beyond both Ennis and Jack.
 :-\

And, onto the topic of "quitting" currently at hand...

I think Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" line is meant to be a little bit of a threat (an empty threat... which he makes clear within the sentence itself).  It may be his version of Ennis's empty threats earlier during the argument. 
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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yet I don't think we have the same questions in our heads about Jack as we do about Ennis.  Like the Ennis questionnaire, it would be interesting to have an identical questionnaire about Jack and his understanding of his homosexuality.  Why don't we have the same questions about him?

Always so egalitarian!  :laugh: I focused my questionnaire on Ennis because it sprang out of these constant back and forths regarding what did Ennis know and when did he know it. That seems to be one of the most controversial subjects here at BetterMost. Jack stirs less controversy.

However, there are probably lots of interesting questions you could ask about Jack. So post them!  :)

As for why they get pitted against each other (sometimes) lots of people criticize Ennis, or even out-and-out lambaste him (I just responded to a post in which the person gave about 10 reasons why Ennis is "selfish," including the fact that he never brought home any fish), whereas Jack rarely gets much criticism.

In fact, usually the opposite -- his behavior is lauded. And that's not only because there are so many Jackophiles around, it's also because Jack actually does make fewer mistakes than Ennis. Occasionally people -- like Ruthlessly, for example, in this thread -- point out that Jack missed an opportunity, or possibly should have considered doing this or that differently. But these gentle suggestions are not on par with the mean things people say about poor Ennis.  :-\


Quote
  If we're talking about fault and blame as to why their story took such a frustrating and tragic turn... I think we need to look beyond both Ennis and Jack.
 :-\

I agree. But I don't think it's "blame" to notice that there are times when either or both could have handled things better or differently. What makes it sad is society's prejudices and their effects on people, but what makes it tragic is the missteps the two men make in responding to that problem (Ennis, as I said, makes a few more).

Quote
I think Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" line is meant to be a little bit of a threat (an empty threat... which he makes clear within the sentence itself).  It may be his version of Ennis's empty threats earlier during the argument. 

I agree. Though it's not even a complete threat. He's saying he wishes he knew how -- that is, he actually doesn't know how.

A sideline thing: everybody always quotes that line as if "quit you" were some kind of colorful colloquialism on the order of "stemmin the rose" or "puttin the blocks to." But actually, it seems to me just a parallel response to Ennis saying "I can't quit this one" about his job.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 01:31:25 pm by latjoreme »

Offline dly64

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My urge to see an equivalent Jack questionnaire leads to one of the reasons I haven't jumped in here so far.  I generally like to avoid discussions that pit Jack against Ennis or foster a sense of competition between them.  I think the point is that they have to be taken together with equal weight.  Proulx said you can't have Ennis without Jack.  Not that we always need to run to Proulx for insight... but I think that one is very important.  If we're talking about fault and blame as to why their story took such a frustrating and tragic turn... I think we need to look beyond both Ennis and Jack.
 :-\

I created a "fun questionnaire 3" and I think there are more questions on both ... that one has a lot to do with their time on BBM. I would enjoy all of you guys to check it out and give me ideas of what should be added ... or you can answer the questions and add more at the bottom. Whatever works!  :)
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline Meryl

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Re: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2006, 12:38:06 pm »
bump
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2006, 02:29:51 pm »
At the end of that first summer, Ennis says to Jack, "Well, see you around, huh?" And then much later Ennis says, "All the travelling I ever done was 'round the coffeepot, lookin for the handle." He went round and round his whole life, looking for the handle that would open the door.
Too much to do. . .I don't have time to get old!

Offline mlewisusc

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Re: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
« Reply #136 on: December 08, 2006, 03:30:46 am »
Yet another bump to find.
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Online southendmd

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Re: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
« Reply #137 on: February 12, 2014, 03:51:05 pm »
bumping for throwback thursday wednesday

Offline Sason

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Re: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
« Reply #138 on: February 12, 2014, 04:18:35 pm »
Wow, 7+ years! 

Thanks for digging these old threads up, Paul.

They convey the intensity and obsession with analyze and details of those early Brokie years.

Looking back now, I feel very clear that I've moved on from that phase. It isn't as much the movie itself any more, but more what's come out of it.

The friendships, the meetings, the shared experiences - both of the movie itself and of all the things we do together.

It's like we share something very profound and almost mystical, but we don't need to go on about it anymore - cause we all know it's there.

Now it's more about having fun together!  :)

Düva pööp is a förce of natüre

Offline serious crayons

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Re: You shut up about Ennis - this ain't (all) his fault
« Reply #139 on: February 12, 2014, 08:46:59 pm »
Wow, this brings back the memories. When ruthlesslyunsentimental posted this

"I know I’ve posted a long-winded spiel on the boys’ love.  And I’m sorry if it’s been a little too analytical, but then again, I have been called 'ruthlessly unsentimental.'"


it was so shocking, because it was I who had called him that, over at IMDb, in a response to a particularly insightful post. I knew at once that he was the famous ClancyPants.