Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown

[brokeplex]

Well, as usual, I don't agree.  In my opinion, even if not one single gay person actually wanted to get married, it's still wrong (again IMO) from a legal standpoint to discriminate based on sexual orientation...whether we're talking about marriage rights or any other.  The right should be there, period.  Take advantage of it (or not) at your own discretion.

This argument is analogous (again, and growing tiresome) to freeing the slaves during the Civil War Era.  Do you think most slaves wanted to be free?  Many/most could not conceive of any other way of life; most were illiterate.  Who would take care of them?  How would they earn a living?  They knew no other life but one of slavery.  A few had the imagination, and likely some education, to dream of a life of freedom, but that was a minority, I am confident.

So should we just have continued keeping other human beings as property?  I think not.  It was a long hard road for everyone, particularly the newly freed slaves, and we're not even finished with it yet because minorities only enjoy full civil rights in name only in many parts of this country.

Still, it was worth doing.  Wasn't it?  I think so.

of course we agree on this!

same sex marriage is a matter of resolving Equal Protection (14th amendment) under the Constitution, and states rights (10th amendment) -  how states chose to protect their own citizens.

I am confident that the process will continue to unfold and the same sex marriage will soon become an established reality in 15 to 20 of the states, and down the road that right will be extended into all 50 states.

[David In Indy]

Well, as usual, I don't agree.  In my opinion, even if not one single gay person actually wanted to get married, it's still wrong (again IMO) from a legal standpoint to discriminate based on sexual orientation...whether we're talking about marriage rights or any other.  The right should be there, period.  Take advantage of it (or not) at your own discretion.

This argument is analogous (again, and growing tiresome) to freeing the slaves during the Civil War Era.  Do you think most slaves wanted to be free?  Many/most could not conceive of any other way of life; most were illiterate.  Who would take care of them?  How would they earn a living?  They knew no other life but one of slavery.  A few had the imagination, and likely some education, to dream of a life of freedom, but that was a minority, I am confident.

So should we just have continued keeping other human beings as property?  I think not.  It was a long hard road for everyone, particularly the newly freed slaves, and we're not even finished with it yet because minorities only enjoy full civil rights in name only in many parts of this country.

Still, it was worth doing.  Wasn't it?  I think so.

That same phenomena exists with prisoners who have been incarcerated for a great many years. They do not wish to be set free outside the prison system. They fear being cut loose into a world they no longer know or understand. They call this "institutionalized".

The slaves were institutionalized. Freedom always sounded like a wonderful thing... until it came. Most were FORCED off the plantations and into a world they did not understand. This was yet another sin in addition to the sin of slavery. The sin of institutionalism.

We've gone OT now and I apologize. I just had to throw that in.

[Lynne]

I reject the notion that Prop 8 is equal to oking slavery. Sorry. it is an invalid arguement to me.

So some civil rights are more important than others?  What is the hierarchy, exactly, then?

of course we agree on this!

same sex marriage is a matter of resolving Equal Protection (14th amendment) under the Constitution, and states rights (10th amendment) -  how states chose to protect their own citizens.

I am confident that the process will continue to unfold and the same sex marriage will soon become an established reality in 15 to 20 of the states, and down the road that right will be extended into all 50 states.

Thanks, Bill.  I do think we will see marriage equality in all 50 states in our lifetime....there seems to be momentum now that wasn't present even 5 or 10 years ago.

That same phenomena exists with prisoners who have been incarcerated for a great many years. They do not wish to be set free outside the prison system. They fear being cut loose into a world they no longer know or understand. They call this "institutionalized".

The slaves were institutionalized. Freedom always sounded like a wonderful thing... until it came. Most were FORCED off the plantations and into a world they did not understand. This was yet another sin in addition to the sin of slavery. The sin of institutionalism.

We've gone OT now and I apologize. I just had to throw that in.

You're very right, David, and the idea of the institutionalization of a people who are denied autonomy, is relevant here.  I don't doubt that there are gay men and women who have lived as long as they have without certain 'rights' or societal expectations that they are to some degree also 'institutionalized.'

Consider that nobody blinks if you hold hands with your same-sex partner in San Francisco, but in Montgomery, AL you could be physically attacked.  If you're from Montgomery (as an example), that fear exists within you - institutionalized, if you will - and it would take a long time living in SF before you were comfortable with a different standard of behavior.

[David In Indy]

Consider that nobody blinks if you hold hands with your same-sex partner in San Francisco, but in Montgomery, AL you could be physically attacked.  If you're from Montgomery (as an example), that fear exists within you - institutionalized, if you will - and it would take a long time living in SF before you were comfortable with a different standard of behavior.

I tried to explain this to Melissa once. You remember Melissa don't you (Snuit)? She told me I should move to Holland where I would be free to express myself. Amsterdam is a city where gay people can freely hold hands, kiss and show their affection without fear of discrimination. I told her I doubt I could ever do that. She wondered why and I explained it is because I have -with the exception of 2 years in S. Florida - lived in Indiana my entire life. The very idea of holding hands with another guy in public smacks of (to me) the idea of running down the street just as naked as the day I was born. I just don't ever think I would be comfortable doing it. She didn't understand what I meant - I suppose because she lives in such a liberal country and I do not. Two guys around here do not even hug each other in the airport, even if they are straight.

People just DON'T DO IT!

Any of it.

[Lynne]

I tried to explain this to Melissa once. You remember Melissa don't you (Snuit)? She told me I should move to Holland where I would be free to express myself. Amsterdam is a city where gay people can freely hold hands, kiss and show their affection without fear of discrimination. I told her I doubt I could ever do that. She wondered why and I explained it is because I have -with the exception of 2 years in S. Florida - lived in Indiana my entire life. The very idea of holding hands with another guy in public smacks of (to me) the idea of running down the street just as naked as the day I was born. I just don't ever think I would be comfortable doing it. She didn't understand what I meant - I suppose because she lives in such a liberal country and I do not. Two guys around here do not even hug each other in the airport, even if they are straight.

People just DON'T DO IT!

Any of it.

Sure, I remember Melissa!  We're Facebook friends!  (Are you on there, by the way?  If not, you need to be!)

I understand what you're saying here and why I doubt she could fully appreciate it, but of course, I grew up in the South and have an good understanding of what is socially acceptable there and what is not and how hard it can be to defy the convention, particularly when your personal safety could well be at risk.

About the airport - I have some good news about a movement of sorts afoot, tho you may have read it in my blog....the details are hazy at the moment.

Truman (and someone?  Paul, Chuck, Rich perhaps) were at an airport restaurant (Charlottesville?) and two of them had the audacity to hug and kiss goodbye, much to the shock of the local patronage.

Well, the next Don Wroe-like trip, I hear this story, and make a proclamation of sorts that from now on, I will kiss whoever picks me up at the airport in full public view and damn the torpedos, or whatever.  I put it into practice that very weekend by laying one on Vicki when she got out of the car at the Arrivals terminal.  I know there's a picture of that in my blog - a reenactment, actually, as I explained myself.   

My logic process, such that it is, is that if enough people become accustomed to seeing it, they'll get over it eventually.  And I doubt an airport is someplace homophobic people would do damage because it would land them in trouble with Homeland Security.

[David In Indy]

Sure, I remember Melissa!  We're Facebook friends!  (Are you on there, by the way?  If not, you need to be!)

I understand what you're saying here and why I doubt she could fully appreciate it, but of course, I grew up in the South and have an good understanding of what is socially acceptable there and what is not and how hard it can be to defy the convention, particularly when your personal safety could well be at risk.

About the airport - I have some good news about a movement of sorts afoot, tho you may have read it in my blog....the details are hazy at the moment.

Truman (and someone?  Paul, Chuck, Rich perhaps) were at an airport restaurant (Charlottesville?) and two of them had the audacity to hug and kiss goodbye, much to the shock of the local patronage.

Well, the next Don Wroe-like trip, I hear this story, and make a proclamation of sorts that from now on, I will kiss whoever picks me up at the airport in full public view and damn the torpedos, or whatever.  I put it into practice that very weekend by laying one on Vicki when she got out of the car at the Arrivals terminal.  I know there's a picture of that in my blog - a reenactment, actually, as I explained myself.   

My logic process, such that it is, is that if enough people become accustomed to seeing it, they'll get over it eventually.  And I doubt an airport is someplace homophobic people would do damage because it would land them in trouble with Homeland Security.

Yes, they will get over it... eventually. But several punches in the mouth hurts! Alex and I always waited to hug each other until we got into my car.

Oh I guess it's probably not THAT bad around here.... my Dad and my Uncle Bob hugged each other once at the Indianapolis airport... but they are brothers. The onlookers around them didn't know it.

I don't know Lynne. It's still rough around these parts. I wouldn't mind risking a hug from Truman, Chuck, Richard or Paul at the Indy airport. In fact I'd welcome it!

I'd welcome a hug from you too, although I doubt there would be any risk involved. But I'd love to do it anyway!

[Lynne]

Yes, they will get over it... eventually. But several punches in the mouth hurts! Alex and I always waited to hug each other until we got into my car.

Oh I guess it's probably not THAT bad around here.... my Dad and my Uncle Bob hugged each other once at the Indianapolis airport... but they are brothers. The onlookers around them didn't know it.

I don't know Lynne. It's still rough around these parts. I wouldn't mind risking a hug from Truman, Chuck, Richard or Paul at the Indy airport. In fact I'd welcome it!

I'd welcome a hug from you too, although I doubt there would be any risk involved. But I'd love to do it anyway!

Same goes, Friend.  Paul and I were both talking about you the other night (my birthday dinner) in the sense of 'Brokies we haven't met but want to!'.  Your ears were probably burning!

If we can make the pow-wow in September, I think we should; I'm going to try to get on a strict schedule for visiting Mom every 4-6 weeks as my finances allow.  If we can't do that, I think someone Midwestern (like say a Chicago resident?!) should arrange a small Brokie meet...there's enough to make that happen, for sure.

[David In Indy]

I wanna to the airport and get hugs from Lynn, David, Truman, Chuck, Richard and Paul.  

Gary I swear, if you ever show up You'll be the FIRST to get a hug from me... a punch in the mouth be damned.

[Lynne]

I wanna to the airport and get hugs from Lynn, David, Truman, Chuck, Richard and Paul.   

That could probably be arranged!  

How would you feel about visiting Boston in the summertime?

[David In Indy]

Same goes, Friend.  Paul and I were both talking about you the other night (my birthday dinner) in the sense of 'Brokies we haven't met but want to!'.  Your ears were probably burning!

If we can make the pow-wow in September, I think we should; I'm going to try to get on a strict schedule for visiting Mom every 4-6 weeks as my finances allow.  If we can't do that, I think someone Midwestern (like say a Chicago resident?!) should arrange a small Brokie meet...there's enough to make that happen, for sure.

Gawd. I have my own tipi in the garage collecting dust as we speak. Yes, let's work on it Lynne!

Hopkinsville is always a good place for a pow-wow! Let's see if we can manage to pull it off this year.