Author Topic: Annie Proulx's still pissed...  (Read 79913 times)

Offline Marina

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #140 on: March 05, 2010, 12:09:37 pm »
I have read these accounts about Ms. Proulx and I have mixed feelings about it - I understand her points completely.   She also many have encouraged a few new writers!  But they are her characters and her story, and what a story it is.   Certainly, people should not presume to improve on it, or try to profit from it, or make a pornfest out of it!   Her story is her own - her own thoughts, experiences, and views that lead her to write it.  

But then, I also feel that writing about Ennis and Jack, for some, is a way to work out complicated feelings the story and film brought out.    And of course Heath and Jake bringing them to life, the wonderful adaption by Diana Osana and Larry McMurtry who we also love, Ang Lee's fine direction, and an incredible soundtrack just make it unforgettable.

My husband and I picked up the book at a bookstore namely because we love the West (he spent a brief part of his life in Idaho).    I didn't read it until during Brokeback promotion the author's name was mentioned - and from then on I was gone - hook, line and sinker.

I feel I have moved on from my initial overwhelmed feelings about why couldn't society accept two people who just wanted to be together (I literally couldn't get up from my theater seat, couldn't even cry until my second viewing) - but I have been permanently changed by seeing the film and reading the story.   There's a little piece of my heart and mind where Ennis and Jack reside forever in happiness.

I'm so happy there are places like Bettermost where we can still talk about Brokeback from time to time.

I love AP's writing and so does my husband.   I was so intrigued by the passages someone above posted about "Archie and Rose", that I had to look it up and found that it was from her latest short story collection Fine Just The Way It Is.  I'm off to read it immediately!

:)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 09:35:05 pm by marina »
“Only within the moment of time represented by the present century has one species -- man -- acquired significant power to alter the nature of his world.”
~Rachel Carson~

~Looking back on it, they both realized it was the best thing they ever had.~  - A Mother's Love

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #141 on: March 05, 2010, 12:20:22 pm »
Once you create characters, you don't always have the control over them you might like.  That's life.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,154
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #142 on: March 05, 2010, 12:34:08 pm »
Writing about Ennis and Jack, for some, is a way to work out complicated feelings the story and film brought out.

This was the case for me.  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2010, 01:41:36 pm »
Once you create characters, you don't always have the control over them you might like.  That's life.

This was the case for me.  :)

I agree with these sentiments and with Marina's comment that Jeff quoted.  I've never written fanfic, but I've read a ton of it.

I feel like I've said this a lot before, but I guess it is worth repeating.  Things that are equivalents to fanfic happen in culture all the time.  Artists and writers borrow ideas, tweek compositions and quote one another all the time in all kinds of different ways.  Parody (both very serious and lighthearted) have been a part of literature, theater, art, etc. for ages.

When you think about it, the movie of Brokeback Mountain is already a kind of "fanfic". this echos some of the ideas brought up by Marina in her post.  The movie includes many elements and embellishments that do not exist in the short story.  For instance the SNIT is something invented beyond the control of Proulx... as with the details about the female characters, a million elements of dialogue, etc.  The screenplay was written by two other authors... and it's filled with ideas from McMurtry and Ossana... separate, again, from Proulx's control.  I don't think many folks here have much of a problem with the idea that McMurtry and Ossana (and Ang Lee, the actors, etc.) altered BBM in order to make it into a movie.


People have been writing novels based on Jane Austen's novels and characters for years. And, people have made alternate versions of Shakespeare's plays (sometimes radically altered) for years too.  And, then there are things like Wicked... which, seems to be a very high-level example of a type of "fanfic."  Issues of appropriation are basic aspects of a lot of English courses these days.  And, a lot of high level literary theory deals with issues of appropriation because it's fundamental to how ideas in art circulate.

What Annie may not understand, because I doubt she's probably actually read a lot of the very good and thoughtful fanfic.... is that many of the good fanfic stories are very respectful, introspective, etc.  And many are so different from the original BBM that they really can be said to be only tangentially inspired by BBM.  There is definitely a lot of bad and/or silly fanfic out there, but there's a lot of very smart writing out there too.





the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,266
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #144 on: March 05, 2010, 01:54:55 pm »
The big difference with the movie is that Ang Lee and James Shamus licensed the rights from Annie Proulx and paid her as well as obtaining her permission. She okayed changes in the story and was even on the set occasionally. There's a world of difference between James McMurtry and a fanfic writer, I think you would agree.

These fanfic writers actually had the nerve to send their pieces to Annie Proulx and tell her that she got the story wrong and it should have gone their way!!

I have no problem with people who want to write about Jack and Ennis for their own benefit and entertainment, but publishing it is a different matter.

I agree with you that appropriation, imitation, etc. are used by artists to good effect, but appropriation is not the right word for what fanfiction writers are doing. Stealing is the right word.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #145 on: March 05, 2010, 01:57:19 pm »

appropriation is not the right word for what fanfiction writers are doing. Stealing is the right word.


I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about this.  

I think it would be stealing if someone took the entirety or large chunks of the original short story word for word and claimed it as their own writing.  I've never seen that in fanfic.  Most of the stories quickly veer pretty far away from the original.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,697
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #146 on: March 05, 2010, 02:11:43 pm »
I'm somewhere in between you two. I think many fan fic writers have nothing but good intentions, many are talented, and their work is a tribute to Proulx's genius. I'm sure there's an element of respect in most or all of it.

But it's not about their intentions or the quality of the work, it's about a writer's control of his/her intellectual property. Jane Austen, Shakespeare and L. Frank Baum are all dead. The copyrights on their works have expired, and their writing is in the public domain.  When fan fic with more recent characters gets published as books -- for example, all of those Star Trek novels -- there's no doubt the originator of the story gives permission and gets paid. It took Margaret Mitchell's foundation years to grant permission for a sequel, and I would guess the publisher paid. Someone who made money off Harry Potter characters found him/herself in court. As with all filmmakers, Larry and Diana don't qualify as fan fic writers because Proulx was paid for the rights to her work.

I'm not sure to what extent it's possible to make money on fan fic, but if anyone does so it would violate the spirit of the copyright law as well as,  I'm sure, the letter. Otherwise, if I were Annie Proulx, I think I'd probably shrug it off. It probably leads more people to buy her books, and complaining irascibly alienates fans.


Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #147 on: March 05, 2010, 02:20:16 pm »
I'm somewhere in between you two. I think many fan fic writers have nothing but good intentions, many are talented, and their work is a tribute to Proulx's genius. I'm sure there's an element of respect in most or all of it.

But it's not about their intentions or the quality of the work, it's about a writer's control of his/her intellectual property. Jane Austen, Shakespeare and L. Frank Baum are all dead. The copyrights on their works have expired, and their writing is in the public domain.  When fan fic with more recent characters gets published as books -- for example, all of those Star Trek novels -- there's no doubt the originator of the story gives permission and gets paid. It took Margaret Mitchell's foundation years to grant permission for a sequel, and I would guess the publisher paid. Someone who made money off Harry Potter characters found him/herself in court. As with all filmmakers, Larry and Diana don't qualify as fan fic writers because Proulx was paid for the rights to her work.

I'm not sure to what extent it's possible to make money on fan fic, but if anyone does so it would violate the spirit of the copyright law as well as,  I'm sure, the letter. Otherwise, if I were Annie Proulx, I think I'd probably shrug it off. It probably leads more people to buy her books, and complaining irascibly alienates fans.



Yes, I can see those points about recent vs. very old/ older writing and the intricacies of copyright law.  I think the vast majority of fanfic (regardless of quality) would never come close to being published.  Most of it seems to be a way to work through ideas inspired by BBM one way or another.  But, it does raise an interesting question about how far away content can stray (and some fanfic strays very, very far from the original context) and still be considered closely connected enough to the original short story for it to even be an issue.  I'd say a lot of it is just loosely inspired by BBM (whether it is the movie or the story).



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,154
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #148 on: March 05, 2010, 02:40:13 pm »
But it's not about their intentions or the quality of the work, it's about a writer's control of his/her intellectual property. Jane Austen, Shakespeare and L. Frank Baum are all dead. The copyrights on their works have expired, and their writing is in the public domain.

Not that this will necessarily add anything to the discussion, but the first writer to pop into my mind was Arthur Conan Doyle. Years ago it was S.O.P. for me to read a nouveau Sherlock Holmes novel (e.g., Nicholas Meyer's The Seven Percent Solution) while I was on my summer vacation.

Clearly it makes a legal difference, but perhaps some would question whether the age of work and the status, living or dead, of the writer, makes a moral difference.

Quote
When fan fic with more recent characters gets published as books -- for example, all of those Star Trek novels -- there's no doubt the originator of the story gives permission and gets paid. It took Margaret Mitchell's foundation years to grant permission for a sequel, and I would guess the publisher paid.

And the Mitchell Estate went to court to block publication of The Wind Done Gone, which retold the story of Gone With the Wind from the perspective of the O'Haras slaves. But let be, let be.

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,587
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Annie Proulx's still pissed...
« Reply #149 on: March 05, 2010, 03:07:35 pm »
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about this.  

I think it would be stealing if someone took the entirety or large chunks of the original short story word for word and claimed it as their own writing.  I've never seen that in fanfic.  Most of the stories quickly veer pretty far away from the original.




fan fiction is far from stealing. The characters in fan fiction might have the same names as Jack and Ennis, but the stories are original and the characters are never the same as in the original story. Every fan fiction contains it's own unique fictitious universe.
These stories have their origin in BBM, but they aren´t BBM. Writing fan fiction is ones way to pay tribute.