Tale of a 19th-century abortion provider

[Monika]

Nope. Again, he participated in "launching" the project,

*

[Monika]

they can certainly compensate the man for his investment (time, money, etc.) in the relationship,

You mean that the man should be paid for having had a relationship with a woman who doesn´t want to carrry his children. ´How do we know the woman didn´t tell him this from the beginning. Is having kids the ultimate goal for every relationship? Hardly. A man has no right to claim any money for willingly having entered a relationship. For god´s sake.

I bet he did get something out of the relationship during it, or he wouldn´t have been in it at all. He shouldn´t get paid. Unless he was a gigolo of course.

[Mikaela]

I'm reading through this recent part of the discussion and strangely enough it makes me happy!!

It makes me happy because the whole discussion about who should pay what to whom etc. only makes any kind of sense on the basis that;

- Women have a real choice and actual possibility of terminating their pregnancy if they should so decide, and

- Many men actually want to see their child (however unplanned or however inconvenient the timing) born into the world, want to be a present and caring father, independently of their current relationship with the mother of the baby.


Remember the old days when women were frequently sent packing by their illegitimate child's father as soon as they became pregnant, the man caring not a whit what happened to his own flesh and blood?

Remember that law that Afghanistan very nearly passed some months ago, making it illegal for women to deny their husbands sex - and allowing marriage for girls down to 9 years of age? And of course, with no choice at all for the poor girl/woman but to go through with any resulting pregnancies from such a horrific "marriage"/sex slave situation.

Remember all the women today, all the world over, who have little or no access to contraception and have no choice at all when they become pregnant, no matter what the circumstances?

Boy, we are the lucky ones - and we should guard and protect our rights and fight to maintain them accordingly. We didn't reach this stage in women's rights by mere chance and coincidence. And it could so easily be taken away.

[Sophia]

I'm reading through this recent part of the discussion and strangely enough it makes me happy!!

It makes me happy because the whole discussion about who should pay what to whom etc. only makes any kind of sense on the basis that;

- Women have a real choice and actual possibility of terminating their pregnancy if they should so decide, and

- Many men actually want to see their child (however unplanned or however inconvenient the timing) born into the world, want to be a present and caring father, independently of their current relationship with the mother of the baby.


Remember the old days when women were frequently sent packing by their illegitimate child's father as soon as they became pregnant, the man caring not a whit what happened to his own flesh and blood?

Remember that law that Afghanistan very nearly passed some months ago, making it illegal for women to deny their husbands sex - and allowing marriage for girls down to 9 years of age? And of course, with no choice at all for the poor girl/woman but to go through with any resulting pregnancies from such a horrific "marriage"/sex slave situation.

Remember all the women today, all the world over, who have little or no access to contraception and have no choice at all when they become pregnant, no matter what the circumstances?

Boy, we are the lucky ones - and we should guard and protect our rights and fight to maintain them accordingly. We didn't reach this stage in women's rights by mere chance and coincidence. And it could so easily be taken away.

Yes, we are very fortunate to decide what we would like to do with our body. But still there are a lot of pressure from other people around us to tell us what is the best thing for us ( like the REALLY now!!!)

I think the discussion would be about how it comes that people don't use protection like the best defence ever; condoms

[Sophia]

You mean that the man should be paid for having had a relationship with a woman who doesn´t want to carrry his children. ´How do we know the woman didn´t tell him this from the beginning. Is having kids the ultimate goal for every relationship? Hardly. A man has no right to claim any money for willingly having entered a relationship. For god´s sake.

I bet he did get something out of the relationship during it, or he wouldn´t have been in it at all. He shouldn´t get paid. Unless he was a gigolo of course.

Totally Agree!!

[Brown Eyes]

I think one thing that many men (no matter how compassionate) don't understand when it comes to debates like this... is how truly scary pregnancy is for women on many, many levels.

One time I was having a conversation (kind of a silly conversation) with my best gay-male friend (he considers himself a feminist and is pro-choice, etc.) about all the things I consider to be a benefit to being  lesbian when it comes to sex and relationships (and he was doing the same discussing the pros- of being a gay man).  And, I said, that I feel extraordinarily lucky that sex for me never involves having to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.  And, he was shocked by this.  Truly.  He couldn't understand why I would think of this as a benefit.

To me, it's an enormous burden taken off of my shoulders when it comes to relationships.  I can't imagine how stressful it must be to have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy with every sexual encounter on top of the standard worries about diseases (since no birth control or condoms are 100% effective).

I think his lack of understanding simply comes down to not knowing how scary the prospect of pregnancy is.  Even for women who want to be pregnant it can be terrifying.  My Mom had a panic attack once when she was pregnant with me when she was taking a tour of the maternity wing of the hospital (and I was a planned pregnancy).

Of course, pregnancy is a wonderful thing if it's planned and you have control over what's going on, and if you can assume that you'll have good medical care and support throughout the pregnancy and during/after birth.  But, on both a physical and psychological level an unwanted pregnancy can be so devastating.

[milomorris]

Nope. Again, he participated in "launching" the project, so to speak, and now is financially responsible for carrying it through.

Not when abortion is available as an option.

Sure. I don't see what marital plans have to do with it.

In the "old days," the man would have wanted to do the "right" thing and marry the woman upon discovering the pregnancy. I hear this still happens. I also hear that, increasingly, young women are turning that option down (sometimes with good reasons). So you're telling me you're having our baby, but you won't let me marry you. Then you stick your hand out and ask me to finance that lifestyle?? There's no justice in that, and the man has zero choices.

And I think we can exclude one-night-stands, abusive men, and rapists from this whole discussion because nobody thinks those men deserve much consideration...and neither will a judge.

Not unilaterally. The father made a decision earlier on that he was open to the possibility of becoming a parent.

No. They made a decision to have sex. One doesn't become a parent until the child is delivered. And since this thread is all about abortion, we are talking about a method whereby men & women can avoid parent hood until they are ready. The woman unilaterally makes the decision whether to abort or deliver.

One of the reasons this whole issue is of particular interest to me is that I am constantly hearing tales of woe from men who get screwed over by girlfriends who leverage the legal system against them. The most pointed example of this is the story of an old friend of mine who I've known since we were 11, "Jim." Jim is Jewish. While was attending MIT, he met "Maria." Maria was from Puerto Rico (muy católico) and fell in love. They dated steadily, (and exclusively AFAIK) for 3-4 years, and after Jim finished grad school, he proposed and she accepted. Neither family was thrilled with this idea, but nobody stopped them. About a year into the engagement, Maria got pregnant. Her family took this opportunity to hit the roof, call off the engagement, and summon her back to Puerto Rico. Of course in their minds, this is all Jim's "fault." He "dishonored" her...treated her like a "common whore." Jim had nowhere to turn. His family, which contains several lawyers, wouldn't help him--"should never have gotten mixed up with those people to begin with," etc. So eventually, Maria gives birth, and then Jim has to start making child support payments for a kid he's never even seen. I desperately wanted to think of a way to help him out of this situation, but at 26, I didn't know too much about these things. All I could do was offer him a shoulder to cry on.

There was no justice in Jim's case. And I hate the idea that things like this happen to men.

[milomorris]

You mean that the man should be paid for having had a relationship with a woman who doesn´t want to carrry his children. ´How do we know the woman didn´t tell him this from the beginning. Is having kids the ultimate goal for every relationship? Hardly. A man has no right to claim any money for willingly having entered a relationship. For god´s sake.

I bet he did get something out of the relationship during it, or he wouldn´t have been in it at all. He shouldn´t get paid. Unless he was a gigolo of course.

Well actually I was just throwing some ideas out there of somethings that might be fairly easy to but a price tag on. The biggest part any compensation in a situation like that is for the lost child.

[serious crayons]

Not when abortion is available as an option.

For some people, it's not an option morally.

In the "old days," the man would have wanted to do the "right" thing and marry the woman upon discovering the pregnancy. I hear this still happens. I also hear that, increasingly, young women are turning that option down (sometimes with good reasons). So you're telling me you're having our baby, but you won't let me marry you. Then you stick your hand out and ask me to finance that lifestyle?? There's no justice in that, and the man has zero choices.

OK, but marriage and child support still seem like separate issues. If the couple were married, the man would still have to help support the kid. Having the woman as his wife isn't some kind of payback or benefit for that.

No. They made a decision to have sex. One doesn't become a parent until the child is delivered. And since this thread is all about abortion, we are talking about a method whereby men & women can avoid parent hood until they are ready. The woman unilaterally makes the decision whether to abort or deliver.

My original point was that men who want to have sex should keep in mind the very real possibility that they are going to end up making a baby. As Amanda's post suggested, this is something that traditionally women have had to take much more seriously.

So eventually, Maria gives birth, and then Jim has to start making child support payments for a kid he's never even seen.

A man should be legally entitled to joint custody of any child he is legally required to help support.

Milo, I understand what you're saying, and I do think men should have a say in whether their fetus gets aborted or delivered as a baby. I just don't think their say should be equal to that of the mother's, because they do not take on an equal burden. I'm not sure what the best answer is.

[milomorris]

I'm reading through this recent part of the discussion and strangely enough it makes me happy!!

It makes me happy because the whole discussion about who should pay what to whom etc. only makes any kind of sense on the basis that;

- Women have a real choice and actual possibility of terminating their pregnancy if they should so decide, and

- Many men actually want to see their child (however unplanned or however inconvenient the timing) born into the world, want to be a present and caring father, independently of their current relationship with the mother of the baby.

That's what I've been saying a round about way. Women have these rights. But in the process of their rights evolving, men have been left behind on this issue. Society has been so wrapped up (and rightly so) in protecting the rights of women and children, that little attention has been paid to how all of this effects men. (He said in a blog called "Women Today"  )