Author Topic: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway  (Read 104269 times)

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2009, 08:04:01 am »
I hear it making fun of homosexuals, where does it make fun of homophobia?

"It's a spoof" is an old dodge.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2009, 09:00:00 am »
We're all people.  We all have intelligence.  We all have observational skills.  We all know men.  And we all share our common humanity. 

Part of that sharing is understanding that we come to the topic from different angles. Women understand men from a different angle, and with a different kind of understanding than do other men. We see this played out over and over again in music, literature, and the media in general. There have been a gazillion popular magazine articles titled along the lines of "What He Really Wants" or "What She Really Wants." Its commonly understood that men and women lack the insider's view of each other.

So when I explain the affection that I see between two guys who, for example, greet each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back, I'm doing so from an insider's perspective. When someone from the outside tells me that men aren't affectionate, I wonder why I see it, but they don't.

I can enjoy watching a game of cricket, even though I have no clue what is going on in the field.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2009, 09:11:01 am »
As for this "it's all talk" bullshit, I would like to point out that obviously it is not always "all talk."

I never said "always."

A co-worker and I were talking about barbershops. I was explaining to him how barbershops in black communities serve as focal points for the men and the boys in the neighborhood. I told him how one barber I used to frequent had chess tables set up for the boys who came by to hang out after school. He began to tell me about the racist talk that goes on in barbershops in white neighborhoods. I told him it was no surprise, because black men do the same thing.

Now, considering the unusually high number of threats, assaults, and deaths of blacks at the hands of whites, I could draw the conclusion that white barbershops are dangerous places, and that the talk that goes on there spills out into action in the streets. Or I could draw the conclusion that most men talk smack, and the white guys who are going to go out and beat up "niggers" are a fractional minority who were already into that kind of behavior before they went in for a haircut.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2009, 09:24:43 am »
If you think I said that men don't show affection, then you misunderstood me.

Its not about what I think, its about what you said:

You can dismiss all the hateful, homophobic talk that some men engage in as bravado, but it does have an effect on gay men and straight men alike.  It keeps them in a box.  It keeps gay men in the closet, and it keeps straight men from being naturally affectionate and open with one another.  And from where I come from "that shit ain't right" is not very far away from a threat of violence.  

Obviously a woman can have profound insight into being a man.  We're all gathered together on this board because of two male characters that a woman created.

Certainly. But not every woman has that level of understanding. Nor do most men have that level of understanding of women. Its very difficult to reach a level of intrinsic understanding when you don't know what its like to be one of "them."
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2009, 09:36:21 am »
It's the "talking smack" that gives licence to those who cross the line.  

I disagree. For the most part, men understand that the line should not be crossed. They know that it might be OK to feel "that way" about gays or blacks, but its not OK to go out and mistreat them. The ones that do become subject to broader, overarching rules. That's why most guys don't put those words into action.

And the homophobic talk is a form of social control even if the threshold of violence isn't reached.  Even that racist talk is a form of social control.  It's an attempt to get those who hear it to tow the line.  I know from experience that you pay a social price for resisting both of these pressures.

I know that I used to catch flak from the black kids in high school for having white friends. Whites were supposed to be the enemy. I learned about the social cost of bucking "the rules," and I decided that what I got out of my relationships with white kids was more important the scorn I got from the black kids. So I just kept doing what I wanted to do.

Peer pressure is not an insurmountable obstacle.

Getting back to "talking smack," guys don't do it to control their peers as much as they do it to blow off steam. And like so many other things that men do, blowing off steam often contains an element of aggression. So talking smack is often crude and abrasive, and can appear threatening to an outsider.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #105 on: November 10, 2009, 10:01:55 am »
And what I meant was that men are restrained in their affection for one another out of fear of being perceived as gay.

What is it you think they are restraining? What is being held back?

And just because you're a man does not make you particularly insightful about anything, even in regards to what it's like being a man.  Some people are just dim and unobservant. 

I don't understand how you can dismiss the intrinsic understanding of someone who sits in the group. Yes, there may be elements that are best observed from outside the group, but that doesn't negate what the group members know about themselves. All the opera critic knows is what he sees on the stage. He has no idea what's going on in the pit, or backstage. 
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2009, 10:35:51 am »
What is it you think they are restraining? What is being held back?

I don't understand how you can dismiss the intrinsic understanding of someone who sits in the group. Yes, there may be elements that are best observed from outside the group, but that doesn't negate what the group members know about themselves. All the opera critic knows is what he sees on the stage. He has no idea what's going on in the pit, or backstage. 

This post is funny, because it contains its own internal contradictions. That is, perhaps you don't understand what straight men might be holding back because you don't sit in their group.

I agree that being a group member gives one special insight into other members' behavior. But your group distinctions are simplistic. We aren't just either men or women, black or white, opera singers or critics. We all belong to lots of groups. Depending on the situation, I might have much more in common with -- and better insight into the behavior of -- a gay black man with whom I share geography, class, personality, profession or other characteristics than I do with a straight white woman with whom I have less in common.

Which shared characteristics are most important in determining mutual understanding in any given situation varies, depending on the individuals and the circumstances.




Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2009, 10:36:44 am »
"It's a spoof" is an old dodge.

It is the quintessential male dodge.  OK, so I broke your arm and blacked your eyes and knocked out three teeth, It don't mean nothin', we was just funnin'.

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2009, 10:48:41 am »
Part of that sharing is understanding that we come to the topic from different angles. Women understand men from a different angle, and with a different kind of understanding than do other men. We see this played out over and over again in music, literature, and the media in general. There have been a gazillion popular magazine articles titled along the lines of "What He Really Wants" or "What She Really Wants." Its commonly understood that men and women lack the insider's view of each other.

So when I explain the affection that I see between two guys who, for example, greet each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back, I'm doing so from an insider's perspective. When someone from the outside tells me that men aren't affectionate, I wonder why I see it, but they don't.

I can enjoy watching a game of cricket, even though I have no clue what is going on in the field.

Thirty years ago, two guys greeting each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back was looked on with suspicion.  It's only come back into style since the restrictions on homosexuality have relaxed.

Offline Lynne

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Re: Willie Nelson's Lost Highway
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2009, 10:49:36 am »
Clarissa, I'd love it if you could provide an example. I've exhausted most of my knowledge and find symbolism and metaphor but not double entendre. Admittedly, I don't listen to new country.
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