Author Topic: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)  (Read 150730 times)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #220 on: November 30, 2006, 02:10:21 pm »
He fell in love with Jack, but he kept trying to deny that he was in love with Jack. He fell in love with Jack, but he kept trying to fall in love with women.

I guess I just think that it took something extreme to break through Ennis's internalized homophobia. Something that might only happen once.

And... well, if a person falls in love with exactly one person, and that person is of the opposite sex, wouldn't that person be considered "straight"?
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #221 on: November 30, 2006, 02:37:27 pm »
Is there a large difference between "fulfilling societal norms" and "proving his masculinity," especially in Wyoming in 1963?

Yes, I think there is, though maybe it's a question of "proving it to whom?" If by "proving his masculinity" you mean "to himself," I think that requires a level of sophistication and self-awareness--not to say education--that I think Ennis lacks. I never bring my copy of the story with me to work (Lord, it's been months since I last wrote that statement!  ;D ), but I think I remember that in the blurb on the jacket it says that Ennis and Jack marry women and father children "because that's what cowboys do." That's what people do in Wyoming--and probably anywhere else in small-town America--in 1963, and probably still do in a lot of places today.

However, I also think "proving his masculinity" comes closer to the mark in describing what's going on when Ennis hauls off and decks Jack in return for Jack's giving him what was clearly an accidental bloody nose. If you're a man, and somebody hits you, you hit back--preferably harder than he hit you.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #222 on: November 30, 2006, 02:45:40 pm »
So twice Ennis tells Jack that he (Ennis) sleeps with women, and once comments that he enjoys it.  Is he in fact sleeping with the waitress?  Does he actually enjoy it?  If he's lying, is he trying to prove his heterosexuality to himself or to Jack?  I imagine the answer would come back "both." 

My initial knee-jerk response was, "Of course he's sleeping with the waitress. That's the obvious implication of 'puttin' the blocks to' her."

But now I see your point--is he lying to Jack, as Jack is lying to him about the ranch foreman's wife? Interesting possibility, and not one I'd thought of before.

Get back to work, Jeff, get back to work, Jeff, get back to work. ...  ;D
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moremojo

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #223 on: November 30, 2006, 04:36:45 pm »
Maybe the "longing" Annie observed in the older cowboy in the bar wasn't actually desire for the boys shootin' pool. Maybe that longing was actually for a lost love. Perhaps watching those young cowboys brought back memories of a relationship in his own past, when he, himself, was as young as the boys he was watching when Annie noticed him. Perhaps there was an element of simply longing for his own lost youth in there, too.
This is a very poignant speculation, and shows good insight into the multiple nuances of the human character.

I definitely think that Ennis (perhaps more Movie-Ennis than Story-Ennis) is marked by enduring longing for his lost youth, the time when he "had it all before him" in Jack's company on the mountain. I don't think it is just Jack in and of himself that Ennis pines for, but also everything that Jack comes to represent to Ennis.

moremojo

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #224 on: November 30, 2006, 04:40:01 pm »
But now I see your point--is he lying to Jack, as Jack is lying to him about the ranch foreman's wife? Interesting possibility, and not one I'd thought of before.
Of course, the potential ambiguity of this detail does not exist in the film adaptation. I wonder how different the movie might have been if Cassie had been left out, and the waitress only existed, like in the story, as a passing and possibly ambivalent reference by Ennis?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #225 on: November 30, 2006, 06:35:56 pm »
Yes, I think there is, though maybe it's a question of "proving it to whom?" If by "proving his masculinity" you mean "to himself," I think that requires a level of sophistication and self-awareness--not to say education--that I think Ennis lacks. I never bring my copy of the story with me to work (Lord, it's been months since I last wrote that statement!  ;D ), but I think I remember that in the blurb on the jacket it says that Ennis and Jack marry women and father children "because that's what cowboys do." That's what people do in Wyoming--and probably anywhere else in small-town America--in 1963, and probably still do in a lot of places today.

Nice to see you around on a thread that makes you feel the need of your book, Jeff!  :D

Anyway, are you saying Ennis isn't capable of needing to prove anything to himself ever -- or just in regard to getting married? If it's the latter, I agree; I think he gets married sort of automatically, because that's what's expected of him. Otherwise, though, he spends a lot of time trying to prove to himself that he "ain't queer." He's concerned about keeping up appearances, too, but it's his own self-image that's most at stake, even if he didn't hear that concept from Dr. Phil.

As for whether he sleeps with Cassie, remember that according to the timeline of the movie, anyway, they've been together for something like FOUR F'IN YEARS. If they hadn't slept together by then, I think what Cassie would have said in the bus station is, "Oh, I got you about three and a half years ago, Ennis Del Mar." That is, I think she'd early on have begun to wonder what's up, at the very least, most likely would have figured it out pretty quickly and in any case probably would have been out the door long ago.

But sleeping with Cassie or Alma and really WANTING to sleep with Cassie or Alma are two different things. He must have made it convincing enough, because neither woman seems eager to split up. But neither movie Ennis nor story Ennis seems very excited about the prospect of sleeping with women. I don't really believe story Ennis when he says, "I like doin it with women." At least, I don't think he likes beyond just the opportunity to, well, you know ...

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #226 on: November 30, 2006, 07:52:59 pm »
Nice to see you around on a thread that makes you feel the need of your book, Jeff!  :D

Anyway, are you saying Ennis isn't capable of needing to prove anything to himself ever -- or just in regard to getting married? If it's the latter, I agree; I think he gets married sort of automatically, because that's what's expected of him. Otherwise, though, he spends a lot of time trying to prove to himself that he "ain't queer." He's concerned about keeping up appearances, too, but it's his own self-image that's most at stake, even if he didn't hear that concept from Dr. Phil.

As for whether he sleeps with Cassie, remember that according to the timeline of the movie, anyway, they've been together for something like FOUR F'IN YEARS. If they hadn't slept together by then, I think what Cassie would have said in the bus station is, "Oh, I got you about three and a half years ago, Ennis Del Mar." That is, I think she'd early on have begun to wonder what's up, at the very least, most likely would have figured it out pretty quickly and in any case probably would have been out the door long ago.

But sleeping with Cassie or Alma and really WANTING to sleep with Cassie or Alma are two different things. He must have made it convincing enough, because neither woman seems eager to split up. But neither movie Ennis nor story Ennis seems very excited about the prospect of sleeping with women. I don't really believe story Ennis when he says, "I like doin it with women." At least, I don't think he likes beyond just the opportunity to, well, you know ...

Thanks, Honey!  ;D

I guess I was thinking strictly about the marriage issue. I like your phrase, "gets married sort of automatically," as that very well conveys what I was thinking.

No offense intended to Mel, but I guess maybe I just have this gut feeling that "proving his masculinity" is too sophisticated a concept to apply to Ennis. I think he would more likely think just in terms of "doing the right thing," "doing the normal thing," "just doing what people just do"--that sort of thing. Of course, what he does might have the same practical effect as "proving his masculinity."

But, yeah, apparently he does spend a lot of time trying to convince himself that he ain't queer.

And I've never quite made up my mind how important is the detail that Ennis apparently preferred to "do it" with Alma the same way he, of necessity  ;D , "did it" with Jack.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #227 on: November 30, 2006, 07:54:26 pm »
This is a very poignant speculation, and shows good insight into the multiple nuances of the human character.

Just had to say, Thank you for that, Scott!  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #228 on: November 30, 2006, 09:11:49 pm »
I think Ennis is definitely in the business of proving himself to himself (in terms of some sort of internalized notion of conventional masculinity that he seems to have) through a lot of the book (and film).  I don't think he need to understand what he's doing, it's just a part of his underlying motivation for a lot of his decisions throughout the plot (and I don't think his level of education comes into play here at all).  He loves Jack without understanding it... it just happens and it's real.  His fear and his deep-seated need to fit in with his version of "normal" society are (perhaps unfortunately) also real.  How or who defines "normal" in this case is an interesting question.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: getting hit hard by offhand revelations (story discussion)
« Reply #229 on: November 30, 2006, 10:06:04 pm »
My theory has always been that the marriage between Alma and Ennis was arranged by their older siblings. Ennis's brother and/or sister would have wanted to get Ennis married off asap as a way to keep him out of trouble and out of their hair. Along with the marriage would have come the requirement to settle down and start a family.

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