Author Topic: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?  (Read 18672 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« on: December 15, 2009, 11:12:19 am »
Is it because she's a woman?   >:(

WASHINGTON – The widely played video clip of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer reprimanding a general for calling her "ma'am" is the gift that keeps on giving for the two Republicans hoping to challenge her next year.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_calif_senate_race_ma_am

Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2009, 02:18:32 pm »
Do we know how Gen. Walsh addressed the male senators?  Did he address them as "sir" or as "Senator"? 
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2009, 03:02:34 pm »
Do we know how Gen. Walsh addressed the male senators?  Did he address them as "sir" or as "Senator"? 

The senators were calling the general, 'general' - which implied respect for his earned title.  He called a senator - ma'am.  When she asked to be called by her title which she also earned and which deserves respect - she gets criticized for it.

Why?

Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2009, 03:47:39 pm »
The senators were calling the general, 'general' - which implied respect for his earned title.  He called a senator - ma'am.  When she asked to be called by her title which she also earned and which deserves respect - she gets criticized for it.

Why?

I'm not criticizing her for asking to be addressed as "Senator."  She's entitled to be addressed as she asked.  But one of the questions you posed was "Is it because she's a woman?"  I don't know the answer to that w/o knowing how he addressed the male senators. 
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 03:48:59 pm »
I'm not criticizing her for asking to be addressed as "Senator."  She's entitled to be addressed as she asked.  But one of the questions you posed was "Is it because she's a woman?"  I don't know the answer to that w/o knowing how he addressed the male senators. 

Sorry, my mistake.  My question was more centered around why she is getting criticism at all.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 04:00:04 pm »
WASHINGTON – The widely played video clip of U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer reprimanding a general for calling her "ma'am" is the gift that keeps on giving for the two Republicans hoping to challenge her next year.

So I guess this is implying that Boxer has done herself more harm than good by making an issue over this?

IIRC, it was one morning last week that I heard Matt Lauer address a cabinet member as "Madam Secretary"; I wonder whether that's all over Youtube, too?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 04:06:53 pm »
Wait... maybe I'm getting my etiquette mixed up... but isn't "Madam Secretary" the correct form of address for a Secretary? 

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Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 04:08:19 pm »
Sorry, my mistake.  My question was more centered around why she is getting criticism at all.

No problem.  Political opponents will take any opportunity to criticize, I guess. I agree that the General didn't appear to be offended by her request. 
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2009, 04:26:00 pm »
Wait... maybe I'm getting my etiquette mixed up... but isn't "Madam Secretary" the correct form of address for a Secretary?  

As far as I know, it still is correct. I meant to wonder whether anyone who takes offense at a general addressing a female senator as "ma'am" was also going to take offense at a female cabinet member being addressed as "madam."

Edited to add:

Actually, is it really possible to separate the fact that Senator Boxer is being criticized for asking the general not to address her as "ma'am" from the fact that she is a woman?

I'm afraid she may well have given a "gift that keeps on giving" to her opponents for her Senate seat. She created an issue where there was none, that somehow the general was disrespecting her by calling her "ma'am," and that was just stupid, on her part. If the general had been calling her "honey," or "sweetie," or "little lady," or something really condescending like that, then he would for sure have been disrespecting her. But I'm pretty sure the general is "of an age" that when he was coming up through the ranks and being educated as an officer, that was how officers were taught to address women, as "ma'am," as a sign of respect.

You can argue that it's time for the military to change it's thinking on this matter, and on how it educates its officers, and I wouldn't disagree with that, but for the present IMO Senator Boxer has done herself a disservice by creating this issue where there was none.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline mariez

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Re: Why is it a problem to address a Senator as a senator?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2009, 05:12:38 pm »
But I'm pretty sure the general is "of an age" that when he was coming up through the ranks and being educated as an officer, that was how officers were taught to address women, as "ma'am," as a sign of respect.

I don't think the General was intending to be disrespectful at all; in fact, quite the opposite.  And I, personally, would not have been offended or bothered if he had called me ma'am.  But if Senator Boxer wants to be addressed as "Senator," that's her prerogative, I suppose.  
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain