Alma's feelings for Ennis

[Penthesilea]

I do believe Alma loved Ennis very much, mostly because he was so emotionally unavailable (same reason why Cassie fell in love I guess, he was such an enigma and so manly and the combination can be really attractive) and she really hung on to the signs of affection from Ennis through the years. I think, though, as soon as she had been directly confronted with Ennis and where Ennis' heart really lay, she put up a barrier and emotionally distanced herself from him to avoid being hurt.

Do I make sense? 

You make completetly sense, I just tend to have another opinion  I don't see her as totally in love with Ennis from the beginning on.

As for Alma's feelings while they were still married, I think she loved Ennis. But I don't think the love was particularly passionate, because she just wasn't a passionate person. Nor did she really expect passion from him. As Chrissi says, her expectations from life were pretty simple: husband, kids, place in town she can fix up real nice. Once she had those things, she didn't look much beyond them. That's why she didn't realize anything was amiss with Ennis until she saw how different he was with Jack.

Maybe that's just what she was: a not very passionate person. Guess she hadn't very passionate feelings about Monroe either. But we don't know.

In the movie, Alma looks pretty infatuated with Ennis at first -- at the wedding, and sledding, and at the drive-in. She's so young, though, and it seems like she doesn't know Ennis very well... though maybe nobody except Jack knows Ennis very well.

Yes, she's somehow sweet and nice, also after 4 years of marriage, when Ennis is waiting for Jack. But I still got the feeling she wasn't particulary infatuated with Ennis as a person, but with her husband. This fits with your remark that she didn't know him very well: had she been  totally into Ennis, had he been her once-in-a-lifetime-love, she would have noticed that something is pretty wrong before she saw them; she would have gone crazy with his holding back, with his inaccessibility.


Alma's expression at Thanksgiving:

Her half-smile says she at least half-fondly remembers those times (even though most / all happened after the reunion), likes seeing the girls enjoy their father’s presence, but her smile is weighted down by everything that’s happened.

Wow, a complete different reading from what I think about her in this scene. I think she is resentful. I think her smile to be forced, fitting perfectly into the tension. I got the feeling she does not like Ennis to be with her (new) family at her new home (pretty nicely fixed up, btw), with her new husband. She invited him only for the sake of their children.
Both, her daughter (Junior) and Ennis give uncertain looks to her, as if looking for clues about her mood. Looking as if they want to make sure they don't say anything wrong, anything that could make her sad/angry.

But fernly has some good points, too. It's only natural to have mixed feelings.

I don't know if she's deliberately trying to hurt Ennis -- in the movie she says it kind of hesitantly, and in the story she says it under her breath -- but tell you what, I've never quite understood what the deal is with Ennis' income and Alma's frustration over it. He's not in a very lucrative field, he quits jobs to be with Jack, and she says they're behind on the bills. On the other hand, he seems responsible and hard working; it's not like he's drinking up his paychecks while the girls go hungry. They have two incomes. So why are they so broke?

In the story, they aren't so broke with both of them working. "She saw she'd always have to work to keep ahead of the bills Looks to me that they managed to come around with two wages.
But if she'd have another baby, they'd have additional costs and less income. At least for a while she'd have to stop working.

Why does Alma hold Ennis so responsible for their money problems (beyond it just being the way people thought about marital roles in those days, I mean)?

It's part of the package she wanted, what includes traditional role allocation.


While I was typing, Mikaela's reply came in. But this post is long enough and I'll send it just as it is, before reading Mikaela' post.

[Brown Eyes]

Marrying, raising children, leading a family life was what Alma was supposed to do. Maybe it was not her big dream of life, but I think Alma was not raised to have big dreams (like Ennis - and Jack for that matter, but he had them anyhow).

Did Alma have dreams other than having a husband and children when she was a teenager, before she married Ennis? I don't think so.
I think she was successfully trained to want this (the family life) and actually DID want it.

Heya,

This is a great thread.  As upsetting as Alma is as an obstacle to Jack and Ennis's relationship, I feel tremendously sorry for her.  I love that you used the word "trained" in relation to Alma's aspirations in life because that exactly how she seems to play her role.  She seems very tied to convention (not surprisingly, I guess due to her supposed upbringing) and I'm sure this is why she blames Ennis for the money problems. I also think the "money problem" issue is a convenient cover for the underlying and more major problem in their marriage.  It's easier to argue over money and they never argue over Ennis's sexuality until long after the divorce.  So, that scene when they're in bed and Alma brings up the topic of bills, this is really a ploy to get Ennis off of her.  The subtext is that she no longer wants to have sex with him... and the easiest way to accomplish this is to bring up the money issue.  He's insulting her by implying that sex with her is only for babies and she insults him back with the money issue.  The money issue is contentious but much less unpleasant (does that even make sense?) than actually bringing the issue of Ennis's sexuality up in that specific case.  So, I just think the money is a cover for the real argument.

As much as I feel sorry for Alma she also irritates me with her "doormat" demeanor through much of the film.  The fact that she puts up with a marriage like that for so long is very sad to me (but a kind of sad that makes me very frustrated at her)... Moreover, the fact that she would put up with sexual demands that were completely not her idea and very uncomfortable for her makes me sad too and angry that she doesn't stand up for herself.  And when she does stand up for herself a large portion of homophobia is revealed (in the kitchen argument, obviously).

Grrr. Alma... a very frustrating character for me indeed.
 

[jpwagoneer1964]

I think Alma really did love Ennis and was certianly part of the reason she stayed so long as well has her daughters. She did recognize that Ennis was a good man.

[Penthesilea]

I also think the "money problem" issue is a convenient cover for the underlying and more major problem in their marriage.  It's easier to argue over money and they never argue over Ennis's sexuality until long after the divorce.  So, that scene when they're in bed and Alma brings up the topic of bills, this is really a ploy to get Ennis off of her.  The subtext is that she no longer wants to have sex with him... and the easiest way to accomplish this is to bring up the money issue.  He's insulting her by implying that sex with her is only for babies and she insults him back with the money issue.  The money issue is contentious but much less unpleasant (does that even make sense?) than actually bringing the issue of Ennis's sexuality up in that specific case.  So, I just think the money is a cover for the real argument.

(emphasis by me)

I never looked at this scene this way. The thought that Alma didn't want no more sex with Ennis in genreal, and that her remark was a ploy to get Ennis off of her, never occurred to me.
Hmmm. This may be true for the movie, although my guts say no. I'll think more about it.

But for the story, I don't think your pov is right. The story says clearly, "Alma asked Ennis to use rubbers because she dreaded another pregnancy." The sentence before this one was about her knowing she'd always have to work to keep ahead of the bills.
So I think in the story it was not a ploy, but dreading a pregnancy was the real reason for her comment.

Yet you are right that it is more easy to fret about money issues than about their sex life, respectively Ennis's sexual orientation. Alma thought - not said - what Ennis likes to do doesn't make too many babies.
So in this scene we have both: her first remark was really because she wanted no more babies, but her next thought is about Ennis's sexualitiy. But she doesn't say it out loud, other than the money/pregnancy troubles, because the latter are easier to discuss.

As much as I feel sorry for Alma she also irritates me with her "doormat" demeanor through much of the film.  The fact that she puts up with a marriage like that for so long is very sad to me (but a kind of sad that makes me very frustrated at her)... Moreover, the fact that she would put up with sexual demands that were completely not her idea and very uncomfortable for her makes me sad too and angry that she doesn't stand up for herself.  And when she does stand up for herself a large portion of homophobia is revealed (in the kitchen argument, obviously).

Grrr. Alma... a very frustrating character for me indeed.
 

I agree with all from the above paragraph. It's frustrating. But it is rooted in her (supposed) upbringing and said "training" of how a respectable woman should be and behave. Again, we look with our modern mental attitude on her. Maybe we should be more clement with her - she was just as molded by her time and location as Ennis was.
And in the end, she took the leap and divorced Ennis (even if it was only with Monroe as backup).

[jpwagoneer1964]

“Me and the girls worry about you being alone so much.” I was a little surprised she phrased it that way, her and the girls. Of course, even if she had said, “The girls worry...” the meaning would still have been “Me and the girls.”

I think Alma still had feelings for Ennis, otherwise she would not be upset anymore about the fishing trips. When I saw this scene  in the trailers I thought that they were still married.

Since they were parents of the same children, she considered her and Ennis to still be family at some level.

[Rutella]

I always feel so sorry for Alma in the scene just before the reunion when she suggests they go out for the meal because she looks so hopeful and kinda excited. She is so happy that Ennis has a friend and it seems to fit into her idea of a happy life; there is potential for them to really join in some kind of social life. And she is so oblivious to the fact that Ennis seems WAY too excited to just be meeting up with a normal pal. And its that hopefulness that makes me hurt at the same time as I am sitting there desperate for Jack to come speeding up and to see the reunion kiss.

That I think is one of the really brilliant things about the film, (more than the short story I think, where Alma is hidden much more), that I can be rooting for our boys but still feeling Alma's pain. And it reminds me of what Diana Ossana said about how on the first reading of the story she saw Ennis' tragedy but on the second she saw the full extent of the tragedies for Jack, Alma and Lureen. 

[serious crayons]

I always feel so sorry for Alma in the scene just before the reunion when she suggests they go out for the meal because she looks so hopeful and kinda excited. She is so happy that Ennis has a friend and it seems to fit into her idea of a happy life; there is potential for them to really join in some kind of social life. And she is so oblivious to the fact that Ennis seems WAY too excited to just be meeting up with a normal pal.

Really well put, Rutella! Alma is not my favorite character, but that is undoubtedly my favorite moment of her character. That hopeful smile, when she says "It's not too late to get a babysitter, take your friend to the Kife and Fork," is heartbreaking. She wants to be involved in this exciting reunion, and thinks a restaurant meal would make it particularly special. And what's almost saddest is that her smile doesn't fade, even after he rejects the idea!

[opinionista]

But I do not believe that, at any time of their realtionship, Ennis was everything to her. The one love you desperately long for, the one person in the world you are meant for, the one person you can't live without.

I think it was the whole package she wanted: husband + kids + a nice place to call home + enough money to keep ahead of the bills = a 'normal' family life. And Ennis seemed to be the man who could give this to her. But somehow I have the feeling, she would have taken another man, too - if only he was likeable enough and promised her the said package.

This is supported by the story: how undramatic their marriage came to an end. No real trouble, just widening water, "...what am I doing, hanging around with him, divorced Ennis and married the Riverton grocer".

Doesn't sound like she was a heartbroken woman, destoyed by the realization that her husband didn't love her like he should.

Phew, I rambled a lot here, just let my thoughts flow. Bottom line is: I think Alma loved Ennis, but I do not think she loved him so deeply that he meant the world to her.

I think Alma loved Ennis and very much, she was in love with him.  But there other issues she had to consider when she knew her marriage was over, because once she had children she could not afford to only think about herself and her emotional needs. There are many people who think everyone should give more importance to love and less to money. Sure, that is very romantic and beautiful but is not realistic because no one can live on love only. And when you have children you have to think about feeding them, clothing them, schooling them and giving them the best future you can manage. And that becomes a priority in your life, no matter how much you love your spouse.

IMO, Alma's decision to divorce Ennis has nothing to do with her love for him, not necessarily though. I think she loved him and probably as much as Jack did, but there was no point for her to continue being married to a man who, to Alma's point of view, would not do his best to provide for the family or to be a part of the family. Alma also resented that Ennis didn't go on vacation with them. He didn't go out with them anywhere, and it wasn't fair. Sure she could've divorce him sooner, and stop being a doormat, but I don't think that was an option for a poor woman like her. Alma could not raise a family on her own. She didn't have the skills to get a well paying job, other than working odd hours in the supermarket. Even with Ennis's child support, Alma would have trouble making ends meet. She needed someone who could support her. And when she found him, she divorced Ennis. It may sound callous to a few, but that is a realistic scenario for many poor women with children around the world.

On the other hand, I think it's unfair to say that she wasn't heartbroken. IMO she was, but Proulx didn't describe her pain in a stereotypical fashion. Obviously we all expect a woman to cry a river for her man, to yell at him, to act angry all the time. But not everybody does that. Some people swallow their anger, and go on living letting their resentment grow inside them, until they can't take it anymore and explode like Alma did on the Thanksgiving scene, that is also in the short story.

[Penthesilea]

But there other issues she had to consider when she knew her marriage was over, because once she had children she could not afford to only think about herself and her emotional needs. There are many people who think everyone should give more importance to love and less to money. Sure, that is very romantic and beautiful but is not realistic because no one can live on love only. And when you have children you have to think about feeding them, clothing them, schooling them and giving them the best future you can manage. And that becomes a priority in your life, no matter how much you love your spouse.

Agreed to this. It assits my view on her feelings for Ennis. Whether she still loved him or how much she loved him (or not) later in their marriage, she didn't see another possibility for her to live. Until she had Monroe as backup. So her feelings for him may have died away (no wonder, I wouldn't blame her), but she still holds out in that marriage until she finds something better.

But I was more focussing on her feelings at the beginning of their relationship, before they married and in the early years (before she saw them). Maybe I wasn't very clear. I think she loved him - but I think she also would have loved any other man who was
- willing to give her the family package, the normal life she wanted
- and wasn't outright a mean guy.

Due to her time and upbringing, she had low expectations and was willing to endure much. I don't blame her for this in any case.
She sure loved him, but I just think he was never all the world to her (at no point of their relationship).

I always feel so sorry for Alma in the scene just before the reunion when she suggests they go out for the meal because she looks so hopeful and kinda excited. She is so happy that Ennis has a friend and it seems to fit into her idea of a happy life; there is potential for them to really join in some kind of social life. And she is so oblivious to the fact that Ennis seems WAY too excited to just be meeting up with a normal pal. And its that hopefulness that makes me hurt at the same time as I am sitting there desperate for Jack to come speeding up and to see the reunion kiss.

That I think is one of the really brilliant things about the film, (more than the short story I think, where Alma is hidden much more), that I can be rooting for our boys but still feeling Alma's pain. And it reminds me of what Diana Ossana said about how on the first reading of the story she saw Ennis' tragedy but on the second she saw the full extent of the tragedies for Jack, Alma and Lureen. 

That's one of the two scenes when I feel most sorry for Alma, too: before Jack shows up. That hopeful expression. The other one is when Ennis is heading out for their first trip. When she stands there with Junior in her arms and Ennis is saying "Come here", giving her a little kiss and briefly tousling her hair. She knows what will happen, how eager Ennis is to get out with Jack, but he is still sweet to her - that hurts.
I think this brief affection shows perfectly the tragedy for Ennis and Alma.

And what is also heartbreaking is the little waving she does, standing at the window, a few moments later.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Bottom line for me, I agree with OP.