Didn't any boy cry? This girl certainly did...

[delalluvia]

Kat

Quote from: delalluvia on Today at 07:24:15 AM
If we waited for a perfect system so that no innocent would ever accidentally be punished, we'd never have a justice system.

True, but the same could be said in reverse for a system without capital punishment. If we waited for a perfect system so that no guilty person would ever accidentally be freed, we'd never have a justice system. But at least we wouldn't be doing the killing ourselves.

True, but what causes more damage to society?  The big picture is what is at stake here.  The safety of society.

The United States has a higher murder rate than industrialized countries that don't have capital punishment. States with capital punishment have higher murder rates than states without capital punishment.

Some say that’s a gun problem, which is another discussion.

But it does suggest that capital punishment doesn't work, either as a deterrent or as a method for keeping murderers off the streets.

But that’s only if you think capital punishment is supposed to be a deterrent.  If you don’t think it is, then this isn’t an issue.  Prison is supposed to be a deterrent, but that doesn’t work either as the crime rates show, but obviously we can’t do away with prisons.

Quote from:  delalluvia
Someone famous once said something like, 'It's better that 9 guilty men go free than have 1 innocent person jailed'.  Of course, that was said back in the day when communities were smaller and people didn't have atomic weapons and one person flying a plane could conceivable kill over 10,000 people with one act.

True, but that's not a description of most people on death row. The guy whose case you referred to killed someone with a broomstick.

Is what he did any less heinous?  He didn’t just kill one person.  Had he not been stopped – and he’s been stopped permanently now – he might have killed and had the opportunity to kill hundreds all by himself.  In Texas there is no ‘life without parole’.  Vicious serial killers will get the opportunity for parole


Scott,

That sounds a little harsh.  There are valid reasons for why an individual comes down on whatever side of the debate they come down on.  I certainly do not champion killing for killing's sake, but with my paricular perspective, I can't say that totally oppose capital punishment.

I agree.  I don’t like capital punishment but those who get it almost always have it coming, IMO.  I don’t like war, some think war is the same as ‘state sanctioned murder’ because there are always innocent people killed in wartime but I have to say that in some circumstances it’s warranted.


Opinionista

 

I don't know this for a fact but a lot of crimes are drug induced. Lots of killers do their killing, their raping under the influence of drugs. And instead of treating drug addiction as disease as other counties do, it is considered a crime. Drug addicts are usually sent to jail. Some are sent to rehabilitation programs but this usually happens when they are first time offenders. Repeated offenders are sent to jail, where they don't get proper treatment. If this problem was address in a different fashion, I think the crime rates will significantly decrease.

I certainly agree that drugs crimes and their perpetrators are currently filling our prisons and you are exactly right in that people in prison receive no treatment.  The problem is that the drug addicts commit crimes so that they can feed their habits – and why?  Because they have no money.

The state could fund drug treatment for any criminal convicted of a drug-related crime while he’s in prison, but eventually he might get released and then what?  Getting out of prison and drying out didn’t make him an instant millionaire.  He’s still unemployed and likely poor and now has a criminal record which makes it harder to get a job.  Addicts of any kind can and do fall off the wagon quite frequently.  Then what?  Without a large tax funded drug program to treat ALL offenders whenever they fall off the wagon or are tempted to, chances are pretty good they’ll fall off the wagon, then go out and commit another crime to fund their next hit.  Their whole lives can be nothing but a series of falling off the wagon and getting back on.  For the state to try to fund such a program would be like throwing money down a pit.  Taking it simply as a financial matter, it might be cheaper over the long haul for the taxpayer to keep the offender in jail.


Jess

I dont have a problem with the death penalty as a punishment...only with it as it is currently being used. The day a white, well educated, wealthy middle aged man gets the death penalty I may feel differently. It is odd to me that the only people we have executed here in Texas were poor and ill educated....cause I am fairly sure they are not the only ones commiting the crimes...

I agree completely.  It makes me grind my teeth to see people get out of the death penalty because they are white or could afford better counsel.  *sigh*  But to say that is unfair kicks capitalism in the shinbones.  You get what you pay for.  Why shouldn’t those who can get the best counsel they can afford?  It’s not their fault that other people are poor.

well the signs outside of town are gone....the attitude remains. and that goes for gays too...

Friends of mine live in either all white small towns or the people of color live – literally – on the other side of the tracks and stay there.  My mother and a friend remember a sign that used to stand outside the Welcome sign to Greenville, Texas.  It said “The blackest land and the whitest people.”

My mother and my friend know very very well what that sign was implying.  Some (white) redneck friends of mine who live there or in a smaller nearby town, are either willingly blind or naïve or both (since they’re hardline Republicans I’m going to say willingly blind) and protest that the sign was just about the growing conditions for crops.   

[injest]

Del, I love your posts...you just tickle me to death...so detailed and clearly delineated...you put a lot of thought into your posts...

(not ha ha tickle....just...tickle...)

[delalluvia]

Del, I love your posts...you just tickle me to death...so detailed and clearly delineated...you put a lot of thought into your posts...

(not ha ha tickle....just...tickle...)

 

[serious crayons]

True, but what causes more damage to society?  The big picture is what is at stake here.  The safety of society.

Yes, but innocents who get executed are also members of society. How do their numbers compare to those of murder victims of people who have already been sentenced to life sentences for murder but have somehow gotten out? I don't know. If they're anywhere even remotely close, I'd still err on the side of avoiding state-sanctioned murder. And maybe tighten the laws concerning life sentences.

Some say that’s a gun problem, which is another discussion.

Agreed, and I'm also one of those people.

But that’s only if you think capital punishment is supposed to be a deterrent.  If you don’t think it is, then this isn’t an issue.  Prison is supposed to be a deterrent, but that doesn’t work either as the crime rates show, but obviously we can’t do away with prisons.

Prisons may not solve crime, but they're the best we can do to get criminals off the street without actually killing them. I don't know ... what do France and England and Sweden and Germany and Japan and all those other capital-punishment-free industrialized countries do to keep their murder rate lower than ours? Whatever it is, let's do that.

Is what he did any less heinous?  He didn’t just kill one person.  Had he not been stopped – and he’s been stopped permanently now – he might have killed and had the opportunity to kill hundreds all by himself.

What he did was horrible. But I still don't think he's proof of the need for capital punishment.

  I don’t like war, some think war is the same as ‘state sanctioned murder’ because there are always innocent people killed in wartime but I have to say that in some circumstances it’s warranted.

Whole new subject, but yeah, it often is state-sanctioned murder. In some circumstances it may be warranted, but I don't know if the civilians getting blown up would necessarily agree with Dick Cheney on which particular circumstances warrant their deaths. The question of what circumstances DO warrant it is endlessly debatable.

I certainly agree that drugs crimes and their perpetrators are currently filling our prisons and you are exactly right in that people in prison receive no treatment.  The problem is that the drug addicts commit crimes so that they can feed their habits – and why?  Because they have no money.

But there are a lot of people filling our prisons who wouldn't even be criminals if our drug laws weren't so harsh. These aren't all addicts committing crimes like robbery in order to finance their habit. They're people whose drug use or sale or possession, in and of itself, gets them prison sentences. Change the drug laws, and suddenly we have lots more prison room.

The state could fund drug treatment for any criminal convicted of a drug-related crime while he’s in prison, but eventually he might get released and then what?  Getting out of prison and drying out didn’t make him an instant millionaire.  He’s still unemployed and likely poor and now has a criminal record which makes it harder to get a job

Exactly.

It makes me grind my teeth to see people get out of the death penalty because they are white or could afford better counsel.  *sigh*  But to say that is unfair kicks capitalism in the shinbones.  You get what you pay for.  Why shouldn’t those who can get the best counsel they can afford?  It’s not their fault that other people are poor.

True, unfair doesn't even begin to describe it. Even if you agree with capital punishment in principle, when the difference between being executed and not being executed is a matter of having money -- earned, inherited, whatever -- rather than being guilty, IMO the system is evil. It may not be rich people's fault that poor people are poor (though that's debatable, too), but it certainly is any citizen's fault if poor people get unfair treatment in our justice system.

[Front-Ranger]

Just slightly relevant. I was passing through Wyoming last week, and I picked up a copy of the Riverton Ranger newspaper. 

In it was an article about a kid who had a terminal illness. He received something from the Make A Wish Foundation. It was a hunt to kill an elk. Boy this is a mixed up turned upside down world.

[delalluvia]

Yes, but innocents who get executed are also members of society. How do their numbers compare to those of murder victims of people who have already been sentenced to life sentences for murder but have somehow gotten out? I don't know. If they're anywhere even remotely close, I'd still err on the side of avoiding state-sanctioned murder. And maybe tighten the laws concerning life sentences.

Actually I was thinking on how they compare to the people who are victimized by the guilty who get out of prison and commit more crimes.  I think the ripple effect is greater with them than with the innocent soul mistakenly executed.  Again, who suffers the most? 

Prisons may not solve crime, but they're the best we can do to get criminals off the street without actually killing them. I don't know ... what do France and England and Sweden and Germany and Japan and all those other capital-punishment-free industrialized countries do to keep their murder rate lower than ours? Whatever it is, let's do that.

Those countries are much smaller than the U.S. and can afford to do things that we cannot.  I remember the discussion right after 9/11 how Israel had great security at their airports, guards and search teams and why couldn't the US do that?  The answer was scale.  The US had over 100 times the air traffic of Israel.  It wasn't cost-effective.  I have a feeling that whatever those countries are doing, we cannot afford to do the same.

What he did was horrible. But I still don't think he's proof of the need for capital punishment.

Going to have to agree to disagree about that.  I think McDuff was the poster boy for the need for capital punishment.  One of his victims, Colleen Reed, was kidnapped from a car wash that I passed every day on my way to school.  I remember feeling like I had dodged a bullet.

Whole new subject, but yeah, it often is state-sanctioned murder. In some circumstances it may be warranted, but I don't know if the civilians getting blown up would necessarily agree with Dick Cheney on which particular circumstances warrant their deaths. The question of what circumstances DO warrant it is endlessly debatable.

Yes different subject, but I brought it up simply to say that 'state sanctioned murder' can also be applied and is applied by some people to the waging of war.  Those poor blown up civilians wouldn't necessarily agree with ANYone who said their deaths were for the good of ANY war effort.  One reason war is hell.  Only the end result matters.

But there are a lot of people filling our prisons who wouldn't even be criminals if our drug laws weren't so harsh. These aren't all addicts committing crimes like robbery in order to finance their habit. They're people whose drug use or sale or possession, in and of itself, gets them prison sentences. Change the drug laws, and suddenly we have lots more prison room.

I think if someone sells drugs to kids, then they deserve prison.  If someone is in possession of drugs, depending upon the drug and if they happened to be a surgeon or professional driver or pilot, they are the people who keep the demand for drugs up and keep the cycle of addiction and crime going, if not prison, then a hefty fine might be the answer there. 

True, unfair doesn't even begin to describe it. Even if you agree with capital punishment in principle, when the difference between being executed and not being executed is a matter of having money -- earned, inherited, whatever -- rather than being guilty, IMO the system is evil. It may not be rich people's fault that poor people are poor (though that's debatable, too), but it certainly is any citizen's fault if poor people get unfair treatment in our justice system.

Hold on.  I didn't mean to imply that wealthy people were acquitted while the poor got executed, what I meant was that the poor get executed while the wealthy - still found guilty - manage to get jail time instead for the same crimes.

[louisev]

Actually I was thinking on how they compare to the people who are victimized by the guilty who get out of prison and commit more crimes.  I think the ripple effect is greater with them than with the innocent soul mistakenly executed.  Again, who suffers the most? 

There are those who maintain that all killing is murder, and that harm done to any is harm done to all.   And that includes punishment.

[serious crayons]

Actually I was thinking on how they compare to the people who are victimized by the guilty who get out of prison and commit more crimes.  I think the ripple effect is greater with them than with the innocent soul mistakenly executed.  Again, who suffers the most?

I guess anyone who dies suffers, whether they are a victim of a murderer or a victim of a mistake by the justice system. If you're saying which group is bigger, I'm willing to grant that it's possible there are more victims of guilty people who get out of prison than there are innocents executed. So the solution would be, tighten the laws regarding life sentences and parole to let fewer potential murderers back on the street. And meanwhile, abolish capital punishment, so the government won't be in the business of committing murder.

Those countries are much smaller than the U.S. and can afford to do things that we cannot.  I remember the discussion right after 9/11 how Israel had great security at their airports, guards and search teams and why couldn't the US do that?  The answer was scale.  The US had over 100 times the air traffic of Israel.  It wasn't cost-effective.  I have a feeling that whatever those countries are doing, we cannot afford to do the same.

Well, since apparently neither of us knows what those countries are doing, it's impossible to judge the cost-effectiveness or affordability. One thing I suspect those countries may be doing, though, is not maintaining the culture of violence that the U.S. has -- in many ways, but a big one being capital punishment.

Going to have to agree to disagree about that.  I think McDuff was the poster boy for the need for capital punishment.  One of his victims, Colleen Reed, was kidnapped from a car wash that I passed every day on my way to school.  I remember feeling like I had dodged a bullet.

It's a genuinely horrifying story, and I can see how this would have had a profound effect on you and your opinions.

Yes different subject, but I brought it up simply to say that 'state sanctioned murder' can also be applied and is applied by some people to the waging of war.  Those poor blown up civilians wouldn't necessarily agree with ANYone who said their deaths were for the good of ANY war effort.  One reason war is hell.  Only the end result matters.

Agreed on all counts. War is state-sanctioned murder. And the blown up civilians probably wouldn't agree that their deaths were necessary. And the end result does matter very much. A moral government would be extremely careful and thoughtful and cautious about deciding to wage war, and do so only for a very, very good reason.

I think if someone sells drugs to kids, then they deserve prison.  If someone is in possession of drugs, depending upon the drug and if they happened to be a surgeon or professional driver or pilot, they are the people who keep the demand for drugs up and keep the cycle of addiction and crime going, if not prison, then a hefty fine might be the answer there. 

What fines to apply and to whom -- and when a prison term is called for -- is debatable. What's clear to me is that the drug penalties in place now are way out of line. Actually, I'm not only for reducing drug penalties, but for legalizing at least some drugs. Marijuana should never have been illegal in the first place. And I wonder how many people are doing time for pot-related crimes.

Hold on.  I didn't mean to imply that wealthy people were acquitted while the poor got executed, what I meant was that the poor get executed while the wealthy - still found guilty - manage to get jail time instead for the same crimes.

I don't think that I implied that you implied that. What I said was, "when the difference between being executed and not being executed is a matter of having money -- earned, inherited, whatever -- rather than being guilty, IMO the system is evil." There's a big difference between being executed and getting jail time. Any system that allows those punishments to be allocated on the basis of the convicted person's wealth is fundamentally immoral.

[Penthesilea]

Killing people is wrong. Why should it suddenly be alright, when the killing is done by a state? Plus, a "state" is nothing more than an artificial structure, made by humans and represented by individuals. This means there are persons who think they have the right to take another person's life. When this person is an electrician, he's a murderer - and when this person is a judge (in office) it's alright?
The effect remains the same: one person thinks s/he is entitled to decide on another person's life or death. One (or more) person thinks another human being deserves death - this is simply wrong under any circumstances.

From dellaluvia:
For the state to try to fund such a program would be like throwing money down a pit.  Taking it simply as a financial matter, it might be cheaper over the long haul for the taxpayer to keep the offender in jail.

This frightens me outright. To judge people on a monetary basis, if it pays for the majority or not. I know it happens, not only in justice but also in other areas of life, but the coldness with which you seem to accept this as natural frightens me. I hope I got you wrong here.

[opinionista]

Prisons may not solve crime, but they're the best we can do to get criminals off the street without actually killing them. I don't know ... what do France and England and Sweden and Germany and Japan and all those other capital-punishment-free industrialized countries do to keep their murder rate lower than ours? Whatever it is, let's do that.

I believe there are far less guns available in most European countries. At least in Spain, there aren't as many guns out there as in the US. Also, there's a different approach to drug addiction and the drug culture in general, which is the cause of lots of murders in the US, IMO. Countries like The Netherlands treat it like a disease.