Author Topic: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .  (Read 10287 times)

Offline mlewisusc

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An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« on: April 22, 2006, 01:12:24 am »
Just stopped in at the main board a few days ago and saw an interesting thread about the timing of the flashback.  The thing that really caught my attention was the focus on what was/was not/might have been said between Jack and Ennis (mostly from Film, but I suppose Story could fit in here) between Jack's "Damn, you, Ennis" when Ennis is clutching him, and Ennis driving away.

If this is already a thread on here, pardon me and direct me to it!  I'm still not so on top of everything here.

If this was done to death sometime between late November and now on the main board or at Chez Tremblay, I missed it - and while I admit the possibility, I find it unlikely.

Third disclaimer: I'm going to copy a post, with the poster's IMDB screen name, here.  If this is impermissible for some reason, would one of the lovely moderators gently tell me so?  Thanks gang, as always I am really interested in your thoughts.  Here's the post:

amandazehnder (Wed Apr 12 2006 19:12:48 )   
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whiteorchid32, I agree that Jack mostly looks hurt and frustrated. I'm also quite struck by how pale and worn-out he looks during this scene. In the story Proulx notes that "what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." And, that they managed to "torque things almost to where they had been..." And, this is the sense that I got in the film too. They would go back to the status quo.

I'm increasingly convinced that the importance of the timing of the flashback has to to with positioning Ennis's last line in the flashback "see you in the morning" as the last line of dialogue that we actually hear between Jack and Ennis (even though it's out of sequence in the actual chronology of the film). Unbearably bittersweet and ominous.


So what really go me about this was the fact that the last line of dialog we hear between Ennis and Jack is Ennis' "see you in the morning," unless, like I sometimes am willing to entertain, we take Ennis's final "Jack, I swear . . ." as a line of dialog between them . . .
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2006, 03:22:53 am »
Hi Mark,

The person who wrote these good pearls of wisdom is here at BetterMost as atz75, so you can ask her (Amanda) how she feels about it, if you want - and I would also recommend going through and reading her other insightful posts here.

I'm not sure if there is a BetterMost poilicy about posting something like this, or what 'netiquette' would say.  My initial thought is that it was posted on a public forum, and then reposted by you on a public forum, so no problem.

Also want to say, I'm so glad you are here, I've been looking forward to you jumpin' in!

Clarissa

Offline RouxB

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2006, 03:38:37 am »
I went back and looked for the thread but couldn't find it. Did you copy the entire thing of just the OP? I'd love to read the whole thing.

 O0

Heathen

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2006, 03:53:08 am »
This is interesting to think about.  Myself, each time I watch this scene and the next (D E C E A S E D) I'm not thinking about what was/wasn't said, I'm just too hung up on the devastation.  But lately I have started to "fill in some of the blanks" in my own way.  My current thought with this particular one is that there is an uncomfortable silence, followed by a brushing off of the dust, wiping of eyes, and then Ennis stoically and silently returns to his truck...  Jack's expression as Ennis drives off suggests to me that there wasn't much else said, not even "...November then".
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Offline RouxB

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2006, 04:06:47 am »
I've never really tried to fill in that gap but as I've been sitting here thinking about it, I believe there was some conversation between them before Ennis left-some reconcilation. I've always viewed the flashback as Jack's reminder to himself that Ennis does love him and will always "be back in the morning" and he uses that memory to keep himself going. I see that look on his face as Ennis drives away as a the realization that things will not change and his acceptance of that unhappy fact. The great debate over was he leaving or not-never in any of my viewings did I ever see that lake scene as Jack's final straw or decision to leave Ennis-I saw it as quite the opposite.

Heathen

Offline ednbarby

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2006, 05:44:51 am »
"I see that look on his face as Ennis drives away as a the realization that things will not change and his acceptance of that unhappy fact."

I agree with this, RouxB.  In the story, when Jack thinks of that time of artless happiness, he thinks of how Ennis couldn't hold him then face to face because he did not want to admit to himself that it was Jack he was holding.  And he thinks that maybe they never got much farther than that.  So not only will things not change - they never were quite what he wanted them to be, either.  That's all shown in his face in that final shot of him.  Perfectly.
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Offline David

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2006, 07:24:52 am »
I get two things out of that scene and the one that follows with Cassie again.

1,    Even though Jack and Ennis part after the fight as if nothing has changed, you see in Jacks face that he knows Ennis will never change.   To me, that is why Jack goes up to se his folks and mentions Randall coming up.

2,   Ennis does realize after the fight with Jack that he may lose him.   That is why he breaks it off with Cassie.  It is the first step in acknowledging that he would rather be with Jack than anyone else.   He knows that Jenny and Alma jr. will be 18 soon, then he'll have no ties to Riverton any more.   Ennis is biding his time.   

But just like the flowing water in the streams they camp near, time keeps rushing by.   Poor Ennis, poor Jack. 

 :'(

Offline serious crayons

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2006, 10:29:18 am »
I get two things out of that scene and the one that follows with Cassie again.

1,    Even though Jack and Ennis part after the fight as if nothing has changed, you see in Jacks face that he knows Ennis will never change.   To me, that is why Jack goes up to se his folks and mentions Randall coming up.

2,   Ennis does realize after the fight with Jack that he may lose him.   That is why he breaks it off with Cassie.  It is the first step in acknowledging that he would rather be with Jack than anyone else.   He knows that Jenny and Alma jr. will be 18 soon, then he'll have no ties to Riverton any more.   Ennis is biding his time.   

But just like the flowing water in the streams they camp near, time keeps rushing by.   Poor Ennis, poor Jack. 

 :'(

I agree, David. Or at least I'd like to. I think Ennis' breaking up with Cassie is a sign that he has come to a new realization. At the very least he now understands that he's always going to love Jack exclusively, and there's no point pretending otherwise. Whether he would have acted on that knowledge and finally accepted Jack's offer, I'm less sure. But I'd love to think so.

And I take Jack's grim expression combined with John Twist's revelation as pretty clear signs that Jack had decided, reluctantly, to turn his attentions to Randall. But I think if Ennis decided he was ready to be with him, Jack would have dropped Randall in a second. Sorry, Randall. Jack had clearly not stopped loving Ennis, regardless of whether he was willing to go on as they were.

One more thing about "see you in the morning": Someone, I believe on the main board, had an interesting interpretation of that line. He/she suggested that, occurring as it does as the last line of dialogue between them, it takes on deeper meaning and suggests something spiritual or symbolic, such as See you in the afterlife, or See you when we live in a better world free of homophobia ... Well, the other poster probably put it more eloquently, but you get the idea. (Maybe that person is here! If so, please chime in!)

Offline Daniel

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2006, 11:33:30 am »
Finality of dialogue is actually something I'm writing about in the 9th chapter of the current book I am writing. I addressed the romantic concerns of dialogue in the second chapter and it is important to take into account the opposite of the beauty of Eros, the beauty of Thanatos.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2006, 12:11:07 pm »
Are the concepts of Eros and Thanatos similar to those of Vishnu and Shiva in the Hindu religion, e.g. Creation and Destruction? I'm embarassed to say I know more about Eastern concepts than Western ones.

I'm sorry I can't agree w u about Ennis' reason for breaking up with Cassie, David (not the 1st time we've disagreed...). Cassie wasn't a threat to Jack, I don't think. I really think Ennis was coming to terms with his true nature and realizing that he could never meet Cassie's expectations, low tho they were. That's why he decided to play the cad and just jilt her so she would have the lowest opinion of him (just like the time he went and got himself beat up at the bar on Thanksgiving). As happens so often in these kind of stories, the object of love is just coming around at the time everything falls apart. I can live w that in a story, but I find it heartbreaking when it happens in our real-life stories.

There was more to the original thread I believe, mie. More about what "See u in the morning" meant as their parting words. And it was a beautiful message of hope. Maybe Amanda has it, or I could search in the archived threads. But I think it is more recent than that.

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