Do You Support The Death Penalty?

[Brown Eyes]

You speak for me. 

{{{Mikaela}}}

[Brokeback_Dev]

On another note, I also think that life in prison may be more of a punishment for many abject criminals than the death penalty. 

I appreciate your opinion on abortion Amanda, and I probably have no right to say this being that i havent actually been to prison....but naturally prison is not a nice place to be.  Certainly I wouldnt want to be there..  But I think sooner or later the baby murderers and ppl like Charles Manson learn the dos and donts.   And they may even have it made there..  as far as prison society goes.

This is a very complicated issue.

[ifyoucantfixit]

       I dont think the two issues have to be married..However, common logic seems to say If you are against abortion on the reasons it is taking a human life, therefor immoral.  Then the same logic carried to its logical
conclusion should mean you should be also against the death penalty, for the exact same reason..
       Or do you believe only that a fetus should have more rights and moral freedom than a older human...?

       The flip side doesnt logically marry in the same sense..You are not saying you are pro death penalty because you want revenge, you are saying it is a safety issue, morality has noting to do with it.
        The same way allowing a woman to choose what she can or cannot do with her own body is not a moral
issue..its a personal rights issue..
         My problem is mainly with the fact that the people that are so called, and i say so called, because I dont think
its a pro life, so much as a non abortion issue..I dont know anyone that isnt pro life...I dont know anyone that
is for abortions either...it is simply a choice a woman should have over her own reproductive system...
         The same people that are ,,,pro life,, seem to be unwilling to be sure that the child once its born is
taken care of or clothed or medically assured of care.  Such as the bill that was just defeated..
         It seems the line should be, we are pro fetus, and after that you are on your own....

[delalluvia]

I'm pro-death penalty and pro-choice, so at least I'm consistent.   

As far as the abortion issue is, after many years of debating the issue with pro-life friends, we have discovered the chasm that separates our ways of thinking - BTW there is no middle ground for pro-lifers.

Pro-lifers are fighting for the rights/life of a baby. It's a criminal issue, murder of innocents.

"They're murdering helpless children!  I'm never going to be in favor of that!"

Pro-choicers are fighting for the civil rights of women as people to have sovereignty over their own bodies.

"They're telling me that as a woman, I'm not a fully independent human being.  That due to a biological change in my body, my rights are now gone and I'm a 2nd class citizen, the public/govt is now in charge of my body and not me.  I'm never going to be in favor of that!"

NO one is going to budge from these two stances if they believe strongly enough.

Now, the puzzling part I find is that pro-lifers tend to be contradictory.  They do not approve of abortion...but if you ask them about a woman's health being the issue - having/carrying the child will kill her, she's pregnant by incest or rape, then pro-lifers - not all of them - will agree that abortion is OK in those circumstances.

This is strange IMO.  Either abortion is murder or it isn't.  The circumstances don't matter.  To me, if one truly believes that abortion is murder, then regardless of the circumstances of the pregnancy, to abort the fetus is murder.

I'm not sure how pro-lifers reconcile this.

But back to the death penalty - many many good opinions and POVs.  Again, it's not the money issue, the people who've been convicted of heinous crimes pretty much have it coming to them.

There is something wrong with them and nothing is going to 'fix' them.  The majority are not insane because most committed their crimes, then tried to hide it.  They're well aware of right and wrong...but they did it anyway.

No, I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  That's been proven, I believe.  However, neither is the idea of a long prison sentence either.  As far as the U.S. is concerned, the crime rate either stays steady or rises.  Obviously very little works as a deterrant if people are determined to commit crimes.

IMO, heinous crimes need to be treated with all the shock and horror they deserve.  Much ado needs to be made of prosecuting the perpetrators.  Their punishment should be as draconian as allowed.  It's to show how deeply a society is shocked and will bend its own standards of acceptable behavior and conduct when faced with such a reprehensible act.

It doesn't diminish us as people, any more than war or self-defense does.

As far as the executioner and his mental health...well, technology is buzzing along and soon, there won't be the need for a human one.  Even so, in most death penalty cases, you can almost always find someone ready to volunteer from the friends and family members destroyed by the murderer's actions.

[serious crayons]

Ultimately it is the woman herself and noone else who has the right to decide what should happen to her own body. Abortion will never, never, ever be an "easy" decision....

Why not, though, if the only issue is who controls a woman's body? If the only interests involved are the woman's, and she doesn't want to have a baby, then it should be no big deal. It's not a difficult decision for a woman to get an appendectomy, for example, because no one believes that an appendix has rights or interests of its own.

To say that abortion is a difficult decision suggests that someone else's interests ARE involved, at least potentially -- presumably those of the fetus (and, of course, the father's, but setting aside that whole can of worms, at least for the moment ...). And if the fetus has interests, what does that then imply?

It's the flip side of the inconsistencies that delalluvia mentioned -- pro-lifers who make an exception for incest or rape. If the fetus is a human being, and an innocent one at that, why is it OK to kill it based on the circumstances of its conception?

To me, to be absolutely pro-choice is to shrug off abortion the way one would an appendectomy. To be absolutely pro-life is to oppose all abortions, under any circumstances (with the exception of saving the life of the mother, because then there is an actual life at stake).

But many people, myself included, fall somewhere in between ...

(And just to touch back on topic for the sake of clarity: I am not in between on the subject of capital punishment, I'm completely against it.)

[delalluvia]

Why not, though, if the only issue is who controls a woman's body? If the only interests involved are the woman's, and she doesn't want to have a baby, then it should be no big deal. It's not a difficult decision for a woman to get an appendectomy, for example, because no one believes that an appendix has rights or interests of its own.

To say that abortion is a difficult decision suggests that someone else's interests ARE involved, at least potentially -- presumably those of the fetus (and, of course, the father's, but setting aside that whole can of worms, at least for the moment ...). And if the fetus has interests, what does that then imply?

It's the flip side of the inconsistencies that delalluvia mentioned -- pro-lifers who make an exception for incest or rape. If the fetus is a human being, and an innocent one at that, why is it OK to kill it based on the circumstances of its conception?

To me, to be absolutely pro-choice is to shrug off abortion the way one would an appendectomy. To be absolutely pro-life is to oppose all abortions, under any circumstances (with the exception of saving the life of the mother, because then there is an actual life at stake).

But many people, myself included, fall somewhere in between ...

I think the reason is because to be pro-choice is exactly that.  A woman has a choice.  She can have the baby and give it up for adoption, she can have an abortion. she can carry the baby to term and keep it.  Thereby lies the statement about an abortion being a difficult decision.  In a society where a woman has a choice, this doesn't make having to make the choice any easier.  Plus, a woman rarely exists in a vacuum.  She has pressures and considerations of her situation, health, family and perhaps the father and society at large.  [shrug]

[Brokeback_Dev]

I'm pro-death penalty and pro-choice, so at least I'm consistent.   

As far as the abortion issue is, after many years of debating the issue with pro-life friends, we have discovered the chasm that separates our ways of thinking - BTW there is no middle ground for pro-lifers.

Pro-lifers are fighting for the rights/life of a baby. It's a criminal issue, murder of innocents.

"They're murdering helpless children!  I'm never going to be in favor of that!"

Pro-choicers are fighting for the civil rights of women as people to have sovereignty over their own bodies.

"They're telling me that as a woman, I'm not a fully independent human being.  That due to a biological change in my body, my rights are now gone and I'm a 2nd class citizen, the public/govt is now in charge of my body and not me.  I'm never going to be in favor of that!"

NO one is going to budge from these two stances if they believe strongly enough.

Now, the puzzling part I find is that pro-lifers tend to be contradictory.  They do not approve of abortion...but if you ask them about a woman's health being the issue - having/carrying the child will kill her, she's pregnant by incest or rape, then pro-lifers - not all of them - will agree that abortion is OK in those circumstances.

This is strange IMO.  Either abortion is murder or it isn't.  The circumstances don't matter.  To me, if one truly believes that abortion is murder, then regardless of the circumstances of the pregnancy, to abort the fetus is murder.

I'm not sure how pro-lifers reconcile this.

But back to the death penalty - many many good opinions and POVs.  Again, it's not the money issue, the people who've been convicted of heinous crimes pretty much have it coming to them.

There is something wrong with them and nothing is going to 'fix' them.  The majority are not insane because most committed their crimes, then tried to hide it.  They're well aware of right and wrong...but they did it anyway.

No, I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  That's been proven, I believe.  However, neither is the idea of a long prison sentence either.  As far as the U.S. is concerned, the crime rate either stays steady or rises.  Obviously very little works as a deterrant if people are determined to commit crimes.

IMO, heinous crimes need to be treated with all the shock and horror they deserve.  Much ado needs to be made of prosecuting the perpetrators.  Their punishment should be as draconian as allowed.  It's to show how deeply a society is shocked and will bend its own standards of acceptable behavior and conduct when faced with such a reprehensible act.

It doesn't diminish us as people, any more than war or self-defense does.

As far as the executioner and his mental health...well, technology is buzzing along and soon, there won't be the need for a human one.  Even so, in most death penalty cases, you can almost always find someone ready to volunteer from the friends and family members destroyed by the murderer's actions.

Delalluvia  I can appreciate your views.  Somehow though I feel a need to defend stance.  I am pro-choice and pro-death penalty. 

I know of a child that was murdered and it was mine.  I killed my baby..I had an abortion.  I didnt know any different.  Abortion had just become legal and I had no female or male role model to turn to. 

For the longest time after that I would think about how old my child would be at different times.  Fortunately, I got the chance to have another child.  A child who means more than anything in the world to me.

A woman has the right to decide if she wants to keep her baby or not.   She has to live with it though and for some of us, its not an easy thing to live with.

I wanted to tell you that there can be a middle ground.  I still think that its killing your baby in the case of incest or rape.  But I like what you said "Pro-choicers are fighting for the civil rights of women as people to have sovereignty over their own bodies." 

I believe in that.  So I have to disagree when you say there's no middle ground.  I think I have found the middle ground. That is to each his own.  Its not up to me or the government to decide what a woman wants to do with her biological make up.. Its her choice whether she believes she's killing her baby or not.

As for Pro-death penalty well obviously I have no problem with that.

[Brown Eyes]

I think the reason is because to be pro-choice is exactly that.  A woman has a choice.  She can have the baby and give it up for adoption, she can have an abortion. she can carry the baby to term and keep it.  Thereby lies the statement about an abortion being a difficult decision.  In a society where a woman has a choice, this doesn't make having to make the choice any easier.  Plus, a woman rarely exists in a vacuum.  She has pressures and considerations of her situation, health, family and perhaps the father and society at large.  [shrug]

I think this is very well stated concerning why having an abortion is a difficult decision.  I'm sure it's all very relative and personal to each individual who goes through the process of deciding. 


And, dev, thanks so much for sharing your perspective.

[ifyoucantfixit]

        We are never going to come to a concencus here..Everyone has their own thoughts and ideas.  I think
that the importance is, the fact that we are all sharing those individual thoughts without malice and with understanding..is highly important..the truth is outside our little universe of love and care..that is not always
the case..There is lots of name calling and even death...If they could all discuss it as it is here..
        No one likes to have an abortion, and no one wants to kill someone that has been a heinous killer...however
we are all adults, and have to live in an adult world..deal with the things that make our lives and our society
a safer and freer place...Its like pulling a rotton tooth...sometimes its just the only solution to a difficult problem..

[serious crayons]

I think the reason is because to be pro-choice is exactly that.  A woman has a choice.  She can have the baby and give it up for adoption, she can have an abortion. she can carry the baby to term and keep it.  Thereby lies the statement about an abortion being a difficult decision.  In a society where a woman has a choice, this doesn't make having to make the choice any easier.  Plus, a woman rarely exists in a vacuum.  She has pressures and considerations of her situation, health, family and perhaps the father and society at large.  [shrug]

OK, so you're saying that abortion is a difficult decision in the sense that it might be a difficult decision, say, whether to take a particular job -- that is, it's difficult because there's a lot at stake, and perhaps external pressures, but that none of these involve the possibility of doing something that's morally wrong or involves killing a human?

If that's all you mean, fine. I get that. To me, though, when people talk about abortion being a difficult decision, or say that it should be avoided if possible, it usually sounds as if they're implying at least a tiny bit of uncertainty about the ultimate morality of the procedure. And if that's the case, if the fetus is considered to be a being whose interests are in any way part of the equation, then it's no longer simply about a woman's body. It's about someone else's body (this potential human's).

Not to mention the potential offspring of the father which, not to open a whole can of worms, I also consider important.

I say this, BTW, as someone who also has had an abortion. It was a difficult situation as I'm sure it always is, but it wasn't a wrenching decision -- it was a very obvious one, to me, at the time. I've never felt a moment's regret even when, decades later, I had two children.

Still, I have come to see this as a very complex issue and, to me, one that, in principle, unquestionably extends beyond an individual woman's body.