Author Topic: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?  (Read 21157 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 10:13:03 pm »


When he and Alma had the fight, right in front of the girls who were on the swingset, he's pretty much telling the girls he can't be bothered to serve them dinner!!



Heya Del,

This is an interesting comment... and definitely an interesting scene to think about carefully. 

It's interesting to try to ponder what exactly is Ennis so angry about?  Really, what's the big deal about Alma having to work and therefore missing this dinner?  It's no news that Alma works (she's been working since the girls were really tiny)... So, this really can't be about Ennis being upset that his wife works.  It doesn't seem likely that it's a gender-roles argument in that regard.  So, really, what's Ennis so fired up about here?  We're not given a lot of details to work with.  But, in terms of fixing a simple dinner... we all know that Ennis can cook reasonably well from what we witness of him up on Brokeback.  He even seems somewhat contented and interested in making food sometimes when he's cooking on Brokeback (adding extra seasoning, etc.).

It is sort of uncomfortable to see the girls witnessing the fight for me (in terms of my own personal reactions).  My parents have been married quite happily for almost 40 years, but once in a while they have screaming matches... when they fight they really fight.  And I remember being really scared by it as a kid.  So, in a way, I think the girls' somewhat cautious reaction to the scene they witness is very good (not over-acted... but subtly the tension that they feel really seems to come through).



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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2008, 11:20:52 pm »
Heya Del,

This is an interesting comment... and definitely an interesting scene to think about carefully. 

It's interesting to try to ponder what exactly is Ennis so angry about?  Really, what's the big deal about Alma having to work and therefore missing this dinner?  It's no news that Alma works (she's been working since the girls were really tiny)... So, this really can't be about Ennis being upset that his wife works.  It doesn't seem likely that it's a gender-roles argument in that regard.  So, really, what's Ennis so fired up about here?  We're not given a lot of details to work with.  But, in terms of fixing a simple dinner... we all know that Ennis can cook reasonably well from what we witness of him up on Brokeback.  He even seems somewhat contented and interested in making food sometimes when he's cooking on Brokeback (adding extra seasoning, etc.).

That still doesn't speak well of Ennis though.  Alma yells back at Ennis that lunch/dinner is "on the stove", but Ennis yells back that no one is eating it, if you're not serving it.  Not only is he showing his girls that it's a pain for him to have to bother to serve and feed them, but that it's beneath him to do it.  It's low, women's work.  He's teaching them what he expects out of women.  Women serve men.

Alma is teaching the girls the better lesson there.

And what man doesn't like cooking on a camping trip?  That's right up there with women 'cooking' but men barbecuing.  ;)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 11:34:42 pm »
That still doesn't speak well of Ennis though.  Alma yells back at Ennis that lunch/dinner is "on the stove", but Ennis yells back that no one is eating it, if you're not serving it.  Not only is he showing his girls that it's a pain for him to have to bother to serve and feed them, but that it's beneath him to do it.  It's low, women's work.  He's teaching them what he expects out of women.  Women serve men.

Alma is teaching the girls the better lesson there.

And what man doesn't like cooking on a camping trip?  That's right up there with women 'cooking' but men barbecuing.  ;)

Yes, I agree!

Alma gets better and better at standing up for herself. 

At the grocery store she tries to resist Ennis's unreasonable demand that she take the kids in the middle of her shift.  She's pretty good at making her case, but she backs down.

Here with the swing set argument and later when she rejects Ennis in bed, she's able to fully and completely stand up for herself.  She goes to work instead of cooking dinner and she defends herself in bed (which I think is truly admirable... one of the best Alma scenes, in fact).

Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture?  Alma's always worked.  I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?

And, he didn't kick up a fuss about cooking for Jack at all.




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Offline fernly

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 11:37:22 pm »
I've been trying to sort out my thoughts about how Ennis' and Jack's experiences of being raised affected their views about, and abilities to parent. Ennis and Jack both had utterly appalling experiences inflicted on them by their fathers. They both, in sharp contrast, were gentle with their own children.
When Ennis was orphaned, his brother and sister "did the best they could", but once he was 19, "no more room for" him. He wasn't a child any more, but he was certainly an inadequately parented young adult.
Jack's folks didn't "run him off" (at least not permanently) since he went back Lightning Flat after that first summer, but home for him, from what we see, seems to be, at best, more about obligation than love and joy. He seems to take joy in Bobby in the early years of his childhood, but the despair that grips Jack as Ennis keeps refusing a life together, seems to sap that joy also.
The anger at their lives that both Jack and Ennis feel spills out, and their children witness it, but it's never directed at the children. That alone isn't enough to make them 'good' parents, not by today's standards, but it's certainly more than they were given by their fathers.
And Jack and Ennis gave their kids a lot more than that.
Again, maybe not enough to make them good parents by our lights, but they were parenting 40 years ago, and doing a much better job than their fathers. Is that enough to ask, that each generation will do better than the one before?
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 11:38:09 pm »
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this juncture?  Alma's always worked.

It's not that she's working, but that it's taking precedent over and interfering with their homelife.  This is not an uncommon gripe of macho men.  The husband who works, then comes home to relax, while fully expecting the wife to work, then come home to cook, clean and take care of the kids too and feels put upon if she asks him to share in that work as well.  That's Ennis.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 11:41:28 pm »
I've been trying to sort out my thoughts about how Ennis' and Jack's experiences of being raised affected their views about, and abilities to parent. Ennis and Jack both had utterly appalling experiences inflicted on them by their fathers. They both, in sharp contrast, were gentle with their own children.
When Ennis was orphaned, his brother and sister "did the best they could", but once he was 19, "no more room for" him. He wasn't a child any more, but he was certainly an inadequately parented young adult.
Jack's folks didn't "run him off" (at least not permanently) since he went back Lightning Flat after that first summer, but home for him, from what we see, seems to be, at best, more about obligation than love and joy. He seems to take joy in Bobby in the early years of his childhood, but the despair that grips Jack as Ennis keeps refusing a life together, seems to sap that joy also.
The anger at their lives that both Jack and Ennis feel spills out, and their children witness it, but it's never directed at the children. That alone isn't enough to make them 'good' parents, not by today's standards, but it's certainly more than they were given by their fathers.
And Jack and Ennis gave their kids a lot more than that.
Again, not enough to make them good parents by our lights, but they were parenting 40 years ago, and doing a much better job than their fathers. Is that enough to ask, that each generation will do better than the one before?

Heya fernly!

This is a great point.  Yes, it's pretty amazing to see how doting and affectionate Ennis and Jack both are in comparison to their fathers.  This really is truly admirable about both of them... there's never any indication that either of them is violent towards their children (like OMT definitely was towards Jack... and we can at least be sure that Ennis's father was extremely emotionally abusive towards Ennis and his siblings).  So, yes, both Jack and Ennis are enormous improvements on their own fathers.

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2008, 11:44:52 pm »
Yes, it's pretty amazing to see how doting and affectionate Ennis and Jack both are in comparison to their fathers.  This really is truly admirable about both of them... there's never any indication that either of them is violent towards their children (like OMT definitely was towards Jack... and we can at least be sure that Ennis's father was extremely emotionally abusive towards Ennis and his siblings).  So, yes, both Jack and Ennis are enormous improvements on their own fathers.

We can?  How so?  By the Earl incident?  That's pretty horrific to be sure, but how can we assume that wasn't an isolated incident?  I think the book/movie showed Jack's father to be the more abusive.

Offline fernly

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2008, 11:46:10 pm »
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about.  Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture?  Alma's always worked.  I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?


Hi, Amanda,
I wonder if part of that anger is that Ennis is feeling so trapped and despairing, trying to fullfill the prescribed role of straight husband and father. Seems like some of the anger, (from reasons that he's not willing to face) is getting displaced on Alma when she starts not fulfilling part of her role in that scenario.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2008, 11:50:22 pm »
It's not that she's working, but that it's taking precedent over and interfering with their homelife.  This is not an uncommon gripe of macho men.  The husband who works, then comes home to relax, while fully expecting the wife to work, then come home to cook, clean and take care of the kids too and feels put upon if she asks him to share in that work as well.  That's Ennis.

OK, yes, I can see this.

With this interpretation in mind... It seems to me that one of the functions of this scene is to demonstrate how much angst, strife and stress over gender roles existed for Ennis within the context of a heterosexual marriage.  The peace and calm and utter willingness to switch off with different domestic tasks/ work (i.e. tending vs. herding) between Jack and Ennis is such a contrast.  Ennis's behavior on Brokeback shows that the anxiety over tasks that are often perceived to be gender specific just melts away in a single-gender context for him.  Ennis seems perfectly happy to be camp tender, and he seems perfectly happy to switch with Jack.  There's no stress in that.  He washes dishes and cooks Jack's food, etc.  So, in that context... and in the context of the relationship where he feels most comfortable... the same issues just simply don't exist where it comes to work load (compared to his experience and unfair expectations with Alma).



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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2008, 11:57:19 pm »
We can?  How so?  By the Earl incident?  That's pretty horrific to be sure, but how can we assume that wasn't an isolated incident?  I think the book/movie showed Jack's father to be the more abusive.

Yes, I think Jack's father probably was more consistently abusive towards Jack. 

I think the Earl incident alone (even if it's a totally isolated incident) is enough to constitute horrific (I mean criminally horrific) emotional and mental abuse towards young children.  I mean, we know this scared Ennis for life and essentially helped ruin his chances at happiness with Jack.

It's been noted in other threads that the Earl story comes as something of a surprise to film viewers (in its horror) because earlier Ennis makes rather positive or somewhat affectionate-sounding comments about his father.  In the "most I've spoken in a year" conversation he says "I think my Dad was right", etc. and says that he admired his Dad's skill as a roper, etc.  So, the awfulness of the Earl story comes as quite a contrast.

Also, in the way Ennis tells the story about Earl, he also implies that he wonders whether his father was actually the murderer or among the murderers of Earl... by saying "Hell, for all I know, he done the job."

So, I definitely stand by the assertion that Ennis's Dad was emotionally abusive.  In this case, one time only was definitely enough to constitute this accusation.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie