Author Topic: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?  (Read 21164 times)

Marge_Innavera

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2008, 01:17:05 pm »
But a possible saving remnant was that Junior, Jenny and Bobby did not grow up with baggage left by abusive fathers to deal with.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2008, 02:00:13 pm »
But a possible saving remnant was that Junior, Jenny and Bobby did not grow up with baggage left by abusive fathers to deal with.

No, but they probably grew up with baggage left over by abandonment by fathers, absent fathers and tense home lives.  Bobby would have grown up with his father obviously a hanger-on in the home, what with Lureen's father lording it over him and Lureen, up until Jack took his household back from him.  But by then, the damage was done, Bobby was already used to his father being 2nd fiddle, and the lack of intimacy between the parents probably wasn't lost on him either.  Lureen was probably pretty testy about it and took it out on Jack in various subtle ways.  Plus Jack traveled for his job, who knows how long or often he was away from home?  Ennis' impact on his girls I've already mentioned.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 10:12:36 pm by delalluvia »

Marge_Innavera

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2008, 02:55:59 pm »
That doesn't alter what I just posted. Breaking the cycle of abuse isn't on a par with being a better housekeeper or more handy around the house than the parents or grandparents were.  It's a significant change from one generation to another.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2008, 03:13:05 pm »
That doesn't alter what I just posted. Breaking the cycle of abuse isn't on a par with being a better housekeeper or more handy around the house than the parents or grandparents were.  It's a significant change from one generation to another.

It isn't a matter of losing out on having a better housekeeper or handy person around the house.  Children can have serious issues later in life with abandonment and absent parents, whether physically absent or emotionally absent.  They have difficulty having normal relationships with other people because they are insecure or they are distant with their partners because this is what they learned as children is normal.  Men and women allow themselves to be used and abused and you hear the excuse "but they love me' or 'it's better than being alone'.  Some will accept any treatment rather than be abandoned.  Others can become abusers or users themselves, seeing no reason to become close or commit emotionally to another person because they have seen the advantages of staying aloof and keeping their distance rather than risk the pain and trauma of being close to someone who doesn't return the feelings.

While I agree that all of this is better than being physically and verbally abused, I daresay it borders on emotional abuse at worst or negligence at best and the ramifications can be serious and insidious and long-term.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2008, 03:52:14 pm »
While I agree that all of this is better than being physically and verbally abused, I daresay it borders on emotional abuse at worst or negligence at best and the ramifications can be serious and insidious and long-term.

In that case, we're going to just have to disagree about what "abuse" is.  IMO, Ennis in particular has done a far better job as a father than his own father did; and there's just so much you can expect of people when they go into family life with their own baggage.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2008, 08:29:08 pm »
In that case, we're going to just have to disagree about what "abuse" is.  IMO, Ennis in particular has done a far better job as a father than his own father did; and there's just so much you can expect of people when they go into family life with their own baggage.

Heya,

I agree with this.  And, it has to be recognized that no one's perfect (ever) when it comes to parenting.  And, the circumstances for Ennis and Jack were particularly challenging.  In that light I think the each did very well.  Neither one was perfect.  But, I think each did well enough to be considered good fathers or at least caring/loving fathers.  So, in basic response to the question of this TOTW, I don't think either Jack or Ennis could be called "bad fathers" (especially when the extremes of "bad fathers" are considered... neither one is abusive, a deadbeat, etc.).  As I've stated previously, I also think each did much better than their own fathers... which really is quite a feat.

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2008, 10:11:45 pm »
In that case, we're going to just have to disagree about what "abuse" is.  IMO, Ennis in particular has done a far better job as a father than his own father did; and there's just so much you can expect of people when they go into family life with their own baggage.

OK.  I understand what you're saying but IMO just because someone was not as abusive as their parents doesn't by default make them a better parent.  They are still bad, just not as bad.  Even considering the times Ennis was living.  He was a crappy husband to Alma and an absentee father to his children.  In any time, to abandon one's children because of one's own needs has never been a sign of a good father.

Offline winterhug

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2008, 11:20:27 pm »
Getting back to the topic...  No, they were not particularly bad fathers. They did the best they could and that's all any of us can say.
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Offline BlissC

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2008, 11:21:41 am »
They did the best they could and that's all any of us can say.

I agree. Given the complex situation, I think they did the best they could. Neither intentionally set out to harm their kids, and I think Ennis more so than Jack was acutely aware of his responsibilities, though undoubtedly he didn't always get it right, and didn't always do the right thing.

At the end of the film  when Alma Jnr visits Ennis to tell him about her engagement she's obviously still close to her father (the fact he doesn't know her fiance's name is I think more of a "father" thing than any sign of distance between her and Ennis IMHO from the easy way she laughs with him about it though) and in the SS's prologue Ennis says that he "might have to stay with his married daughter" (presumably Alma Jnr), which suggests they still have a good relationship. 


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Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 09/08: Were Ennis and Jack particularly bad fathers?
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2008, 11:35:20 am »
I agree. Given the complex situation, I think they did the best they could.

I completely disagree.  Quitting jobs when your children need to eat so you can meet with your lover isn't 'good' or 'the best anyone could do' by any stretch of the imagination.  That's just selfish and irresponsible, plain and simple.

Quote
Neither intentionally set out to harm their kids, and I think Ennis more so than Jack was acutely aware of his responsibilities, though undoubtedly he didn't always get it right, and didn't always do the right thing.

At the end of the film  when Alma Jnr visits Ennis to tell him about her engagement she's obviously still close to her father (the fact he doesn't know her fiance's name is I think more of a "father" thing than any sign of distance between her and Ennis IMHO from the easy way she laughs with him about it though) and in the SS's prologue Ennis says that he "might have to stay with his married daughter" (presumably Alma Jnr), which suggests they still have a good relationship. 

It may not necessarily be good.  Ennis' daughter in the story may just be dutiful.  A friend of mine would never turn her mother away if she was unemployed and needing a place to stay.  I've seen her do it.  And she despises her mother, was emotionally abused by her and still is.  But to her, the woman is still  her mother, so she won't turn her away.  Another friend of mine is having Easter dinner with her father tonight.  She's been having long talks with him recently, ever since she learned he has come out of remission and is probably terminal with lymphoma.  And he physically, emotionally and verbally abused her her entire childhood.  She also despises him, and time has not changed him.  He isn't sorry for what he did to her, completely unapologetic.  But, she figures, the man is dying, what's she going to do?  Turn away his gestures?

Parents and their children can be held together by all sorts of things, it isn't necessarily indicative of a 'good' relationship between them.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 03:42:13 pm by delalluvia »