Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121647 times)

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #100 on: June 01, 2006, 08:47:35 pm »
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This movie is very ambiguous throughout, and the ending particularly so.

Yes! And oh, how much that makes it continue to engage our hearts and minds....  :)


In keeping with the "double meanings" theme, Ennis's keeping the shirts in the closet has several overlapping possible uses and meanings as well..... ranging from the entirely mundane to the heartwrenchingly symbolic.

- Protection and preservation from everyday stains or mishaps
- A "shrine" or "memorial" as a private focal point for Ennis to remember Jack and their love for each other.
- A hiding place, so that noone (aka society) will be meddling, questioning, or disapproving
- And the strongly symbolic implication to contemporary viewers. (I don't even know if the "in the closet" term had been coined in the early 80's)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2006, 08:51:51 pm by Mikaela »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #101 on: June 01, 2006, 08:53:07 pm »
I'm popping in here to say congrats to this thread and to Katherine for starting it since it's now surpassed 100 posts!  Wow,  I go grab my 40 winks, go to work and come back here to find a zillion long and extremely thoughtful new posts.  OK.  I need to do some serious post-reading before I really join in here again.   It never ceases to amaze me how much there is to discuss in this movie... even after all of our hours of discussion already, things just get more interesting and complex.
 :D
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2006, 10:10:36 pm »
 + 100 posts !! Woot!  :) :)


I'm disrupting the discussion to move on to another "double meaning" for a moment, but this one just occured to  me (probably months after everyone else, but there you are.......):

When Ennis promises his daughters he'll be back in time for the church picnic, he says "All right...long as I don't have to sing!" And they laugh, as if it's a good and lighthearted joke. So the first thought that comes to mind is that his daughters think it's funny because they know that Ennis can't sing, or never sings, or sings so badly that it's a shared and internal family "thing".

But he *can* sing - he sings when he's riding under the blue sky, on his way back to Jack with food, and he sings to Jack during the dozy embrace. So maybe an unvoiced and subconscious sentiment behind "as long as I don't have to sing" is : "Because that's something special between Jack and me, something belonging to Brokeback - and I'll not sing anywhere else."   :'(

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #103 on: June 01, 2006, 10:51:55 pm »
+ 100 posts !! Woot!  :) :)


I'm disrupting the discussion to move on to another "double meaning" for a moment, but this one just occured to  me (probably months after everyone else, but there you are.......):

When Ennis promises his daughters he'll be back in time for the church picnic, he says "All right...long as I don't have to sing!" And they laugh, as if it's a good and lighthearted joke. So the first thought that comes to mind is that his daughters think it's funny because they know that Ennis can't sing, or never sings, or sings so badly that it's a shared and internal family "thing".

But he *can* sing - he sings when he's riding under the blue sky, on his way back to Jack with food, and he sings to Jack during the dozy embrace. So maybe an unvoiced and subconscious sentiment behind "as long as I don't have to sing" is : "Because that's something special between Jack and me, something belonging to Brokeback - and I'll not sing anywhere else."   :'(

Ooooo.  Good one Mikaela!  Yes, I think this is a good example of Ennis wanting to keep Brokeback special and private... and completely separate from his daily life.  It's interesting though... you'd think he might be willing to sing to his daughters if he'd be willing to sing to anyone other than Jack (since he clearly loves his kids so much).  But, it makes perfect sense to me that he wouldn't want to sing with the "fire and brimstone" church people.  I think it's the sweetest thing in the world that he sings to Jack... and also a really significant song.  I love that he says it's something he got from his Mother (well the "sleeping on your feet like a horse" comment came from his Mom, so I assume the song did too... but I could be wrong).  Oh, it just breaks my heart that Ennis the orphan is sharing something like that with Jack (especially because this is a clue too that Ennis's Mother seems to have been a positive force in Ennis's life, unlike his Dad).  I love that we can't quite hear what Ennis is humming to Jack (at least I can't make out what the actual tune is).  To me that helps keep that moment "private and precious" and something that only our boys know.

Does anyone remember that fantastic old thread on the old board about the "Cowboy's Lament"?  It was started by CaseyCornelius (I'm almost certain) and was all about the song the Streets of Laredo that Ennis seems to be humming before the bear incident.  It was really smart.  I seem to recall that it was all about the significance of the lyrics to that old song in relation to BBM.  Is that thread in the Archives?  I'll have to check when I log off here tonight.

This is all reminding me of one of the favorite old observations from the *original* "I love everything Ennis" thread on the old board.  People used to say "I love Ennis because he laughs, jokes, sings and humms when he's around Jack."
Awwww.
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Offline richardg49

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2006, 07:22:49 am »
I think there is a clever double-meaning in Cassie's line to Alma, Jnr when she says, 'You don't say much, but you get your point across.'  This comment could equally well apply to Ennis as to his daughter. An inherited family trait, perhaps?
I gave him what I hoped was that hopeful innocent puppy look that said “don’t you just want ta rub my tummy” rather than that hungry, ravenous wolf look that said “why don’t you just come out a that brick house so I can eat you up little pig?” LVH: 'What I did on my Day Off'

Offline opinionista

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2006, 07:59:16 am »
Hey guys,

I brought the line below to another thread, can't remember which one, and I briefly discussed its meaning with other posters but we couldn't reach to a conclusion. I'm bringing it here again to see if someone can shed some light over it. It's from the short story:

Ennis and Jack are having a conversation in the Motel Siesta:

...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys, Jack? "Shit no," said Jack, who has been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.

While I understand that by "was riding more than bulls", Proulx meant Jack was having sex with other men or at least trying to, I'm not sure about the next line: "not rolling his own". Well, I was reading the short story again last night before going to sleep and it ocurred to me that perhaps Proulx means that Jack wasn't exactly having sex with Lureen. Or is it that he wasn't "wranging it out" as much as Ennis was because he didn't need to? What do you think?

I'd like to add that its too bad the screenwriters decided to leave out this conversation from the movie because it does have some effects in their overall relationship, I think. Ennis does tell Jack that he loves him and misses him, especially when he tells him:

"When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long long while"

I think this is what prompted Jack to come up with the little calf-and-cow operation idea.  Althought now that I think of it in the movie they change that line with the one where Ennis says he's thanking heaven because Jack forgot his harmonica. I don't know.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 08:03:16 am by opinionista »
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2006, 04:15:56 pm »
I think there is a clever double-meaning in Cassie's line to Alma, Jnr when she says, 'You don't say much, but you get your point across.'  This comment could equally well apply to Ennis as to his daughter. An inherited family trait, perhaps?

Yeah, Ennis and Alma Jr really seem like they're cut from the same cloth, don't they. (And hi, and welcome. :) )

Going back to stuff in the last scene in the movie, following up on conversations on the last couple pages... what follows here is a really depressing interpretation. I don't like it, but I want to throw it out there.

What if going to Alma Jr's wedding was actually symbolic of giving in to society's demands? If putting the shirts in the closet symbolized Ennis in the present -- if Ennis was willing to deal with the unpleasant crowds because he's putting that part of himself away, putting it fully into the closet again, and if without Jack around, he's less worried that people will figure out about him?

I don't like this... so here's another closet interpretation. I think that the closet probably is symbolic, that it isn't just a closet. (Even though I think it's more dramatic to see the door opened and suddenly see the shirts hanging there, rather than have them prominently displayed in the background for the entire scene.) But I think the symbol represents the entire relationship, two shirts tucked inside one another as if they're one, but hidden away in the closet the entire time, with the picture of Brokeback Mountain reminding them of their happiest time.

Opinionista -- I interpreted "not rolling his own" to mean that Jack was taking care of his sexual needs by having sex with other men rather than by masturbating. But I think there are a lot of ways to read the line.
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Offline opinionista

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2006, 06:32:39 pm »
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Opinionista -- I interpreted "not rolling his own" to mean that Jack was taking care of his sexual needs by having sex with other men rather than by masturbating. But I think there are a lot of ways to read the line

Well, it makes sense. Thanks Nakymaton
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Meryl

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2006, 09:45:57 pm »
Whew, I just caught up on this thread.  Great analyses, folks!  8)

MUCH earlier, I asked the question:

So what do you think it was that Cassie did fall in love with?  and Mel replied:   

Hey Meryl, didn't we discuss this a long time ago, on LJ? I could swear you were one of the people who answered the question for me!

There's the "Ennis is a very attractive man" thing, like Katherine mentioned. He's especially attractive for someone into the Marlboro Man type.

And I don't remember who brought it up in LJ, but somebody made a really good point -- that there's just something about Ennis, maybe a sense that there's something beneath that reticent surface, that there's a man truly worth knowing locked away in there. I don't know if Cassie is the sort of perceptive person who would see that; she clearly doesn't seem to understand that not only is she the wrong key to unlock Ennis, she's the wrong type of key altogether. (Jack, on the other hand...)

And there's something else that I've thought of since that discussion. You know, Cassie works as a waitress in a bar; along with drinking and smoking, she probably deals with an awful lot of harrassment from men who might just like to rile up a pretty girl, and who probably frequently hint that they would like to have sex with her. And Ennis doesn't do that. She might read that as being a nice guy (along with being very reserved), rather than as simply not being interested in sex with pretty girls. (So by being uninterested, Ennis becomes desirable... at least in contrast to the many jerks in the world.)


Thanks for the lengthy reply, Mel!  I don't remember being in on that topic on LJ, but the points made are certainly well observed.  Ennis's good looks are a plus, but good looks can't save a guy who is a jerk.  ;)

I think Cassie picked up on Ennis's loneliness, myself.  He didn't even sit around with other guys while he drank his beer.  She took a chance coming on to a loner, but some women, as you mentioned, prefer that.  What does Carmen sing....L'un parle bien, l'autre se tait; et c'est l'autre que je prefere, il n'a rien dit, mais il me plait (One man speaks, another is quiet, and it's that one I prefer.  He says not a word, but I like that.)  Maybe, like Jack, she sensed the intense part of Ennis that lived just under the surface and was drawn to it.  Poor girl!  If Ennis had been self aware enough not to let her get involved with him, he would have spared her a lot of pain.  But he wasnt.

(That last observation was brought to you courtesy of some memories I have, of being one of the few women in a cowboy/roughneck/geologist bar in the 80's. I didn't hang out there more than once; I was trying to be "one of the boys," and it sure didn't work. I can't imagine what it would have been like to work as a waitress there.)
I love picturing you in a rough and ready geologist bar.  I'll bet they's mean sumbitches, geologists.  ;D

What if going to Alma Jr's wedding was actually symbolic of giving in to society's demands? If putting the shirts in the closet symbolized Ennis in the present -- if Ennis was willing to deal with the unpleasant crowds because he's putting that part of himself away, putting it fully into the closet again, and if without Jack around, he's less worried that people will figure out about him?

I lean more toward this tragic interpretation, too, just as I am one of the Tire Ironists as opposed to the Accidentalists when it comes to Jack's death.  It's why we come out of the theater shaking our heads and wiping away tears.  The Ennis of Proulx's prologue is living in that trailer almost as in a tomb.  Jack will remain his secret.   Movie Ennis symbolizes this neatly not only by keeping the shirts hidden in the closet, but by concealing Jack's shirt beneath his own.  The glimpse of redemption Ang Lee provides us with is some comfort, but a happier ending would have diluted and falsified what I feel is the real message:  This is what happens to people when society insists they fit a certain mold and punishes them if they can't.   :(
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #109 on: June 03, 2006, 08:08:19 am »
Wonderful post, Meryl!   :) and  :'(


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What if going to Alma Jr's wedding was actually symbolic of giving in to society's demands?

I don't think I see it as giving in to society, at least not to how society wants him to behave in "public"  - since IMO he's been doing that over and over his whole life, in the one question touching most deeply on his heart. This therefore seems a bit too obscure to be the symbolic "final surrender" in a long struggle with society's demands. The film Ennis portrayal IMO doesn't show someone who's ever actively and consciously struggling against society's rules (and finally giving in there at the end);  Ennis takes society's rules far too much for granted. His struggle is more with his own personal internalized homophobia and childhood demons, and that struggle has thankfully been put to rest there in the final scene. However by not making him rail against society’s homophobia at all, the message of the film becomes all the more heartbreaking...;
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From Meryl

This is what happens to people when society insists they fit a certain mold and punishes them if they can't.

BUT Ennis going to the wedding at the point in time where he has finally come to terms with the discrepancy between who he is and who he himself and "society" wanted him to be, showcases such a bittersweet tragic irony: Once “society’s” pressures have kept him away from the love of his life till the last chance is gone, now “society” sort of rewards him through not so much pressuring him as nudging him towards attending his daughter’s wedding and thus towards opening himself to a socially accepted type of love; the father/daughter love. Thereby contributing its part to him not becoming a complete loner.

From then on I just see him going with the flow of society's general demands, or rather living below the range of itt radar altogether. With Jack gone, just as Ennis reached the point of self-acceptance where he might have decided to actively disregard society's perceived castigation of "two guys living together", IMO he sees no reason anymore why he should possibly want to actively flaunt society.  Also there’s the strange and sad thing that “society’” might possibly (or certainly, in his opinion) have made him an outcast for loving another human being deeply, but will only frown and shrug and move on should he neglect keeping in contact with his family, engage in barroom brawls, drink himself slowly to death…….

I think there was a press conference where Heath Ledger was asked what he thinks happens to Ennis afterwards, and he just answered "not much". I probably think HL was as spot-on in that as in the rest of his Ennis portrayal. I can't see Ennis "coming out". I can't see him getting on the tiniest of soap boxes to proclaim who he really is, not even to his daughters. I can't see him finding another man to love. Apart from the connection with his daughter(s) and eventual grandchildren, I think he'll have a very lonely and quietly miserable life, going in circles around those two shirts and steeped in memories and regret. It's a very bleak prospect.

But from "society's" perspective, he'll be living an ordinary life within the general rules and expectations. Going to weddings and all.  **sigh**

---------

The LJ discussion about what Cassie and others saw in Ennis was back in February. I dug out one comment I made myself at the time, and lazy person that I am, here it is:

As to what everyone (Jack, Cassie, Alma) sees in Ennis; - I think they see or sense his *strength*. Not only the visible physical one, but his immense mental strength - coupled with strong *passion*. The guy is a veritable volcano of passion and emotions waiting to erupt, as he demonstrates in that one scene where it initially is Jack who holds back, not knowing how far he'll be allowed to go...... The ones who love Ennis are the ones who actually sense all of this, and probably think they can find the means to unlock his strength enough for it to also encompass them, to support them, to make them strong by extension. And they hope to find the means to unlock his emotional side aw well, something that only Jack actually manages to do, having the "right key to turn the lock tumblers". That's such an unbelievably apt image. All that passion Ennis keeps under lock and key.........

Unfortunately for everyone, Ennis uses nearly all his immense strength not on opening up and giving, but on keeping himself tightly in check, tying himself into knots, keeping his nature and passions repressed and out of sight away from everyone including himself, under such pressure that the eruptions are few but very spectacular.

Ennis *has* to be strong to be able to "stand" all that he perceives he "can't fix", over all those weary years, withstanding all those emotional blows. In the last scene however grief-stricken, I think there's no question he'll keep going, manage some sort of a life and even form a connection with his daughter(s). Given the weight of the emotional baggage and self-recriminations he is lugging along that far out in the story...... The strength that keeps him going must be almost preternatural.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 08:22:53 am by Mikaela »