Author Topic: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way  (Read 121664 times)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2006, 08:43:55 am »
Awww, Katherine, you're just a little sentimental today aren't you?

I'm afraid that when it comes to Brokeback, I'm sentimental every day.  :-* :'(

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2006, 06:20:47 pm »
Quote
-"There ain't no reigns on this one" - can be translated into "I love you so much that I feel completely out of control when I'm around you."  Or it can be translated into "There's no way for us to control how society will view our relationship."  - Or when combined with the lines above... it can be translated into... "I'll love you for the rest of my life even though this situation makes me feel completely out of control." or "I can't help loving you forever even if we can't control our relationship the way we'd like due to societal pressures." etc.

I thought he means "We have no other choice, but to see each other in a far away place once in a while, for as long as we can ride it".

Quote
All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"

A straightforward question about what's happening in ennis's life  -  but also a sign that Jack has given up the last buried bit of hope for a life together with Ennis. He's really saying that even in his heart of hearts he knows now that Ennis will not ever stop pretending to be what he's not; will never come around to honestly considering a life together with Jack. There is an finality, an acceptance of that as a fact in Jack's question. He's puzzled - since Ennis truly is going to go through all of his life living the lie, afraid of people finding out, ashamed of who he really is - then why haven't he taken the obvious step and seen to putting up the front that a re-marriage would provide?

But maybe that's just me, and it's equally possible to read into the question a sign that Jack has still not completely given up, precisely because Ennis hasn't gone and re-married?

Interesting. This line was discussed extensively at TOB and I remember the general agreement was that Jack was baiting Ennis. He wanted to tell him about his affair with the rancher, but didn't know how to.  In the end, he couldn't and lies to him.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 06:32:48 pm by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2006, 08:23:41 pm »
He shrugs off the questions and suggests that Ennis move out of town. That actually does seem like a sensible solution. But not entirely reassuring for Ennis, as it disregards his worries. And when it comes to cohabitation, Ennis has an even lower startle point, and Jack hits it (and gets thrown).

So ends Ennis' moment of openness, and an opportunity is wasted.

I quite like the low startle point idea applied to Ennis.  That's excellent.  Yes, I think Jack often walked on eggshells when it came to discussing certain things with Ennis.  You're right that this is an important moment/ response by Jack.  His mannerism... the shrug seems dismissive in terms of body language.  There are at least 3 ways I can think of to interpret this.  I think he was trying to make it seem like "not so much of a big deal" so as not to make Ennis truly terrified.  So, on one hand it's an attempt to calm Ennis down.  But, I also don't think Jack genuinely feels the same kinds of fears as Ennis does about some of these subjects.  So, on another hand it's Jack's own personal reaction coming out... he really isn't as worried about these things as Ennis.

And, on a third and more interesting hand (that somewhat contradicts the first option)... I think Jack is being sneaky here.  I think he's trying to pounce on an opportunity.  I feel like you can almost see the wheels spinning in Jack's head for a second or two as he looks at the river before he comments to Ennis about maybe "getting out of there."  If Ennis really is growing worried about his current living situation on his own, well then, it might be the moment to suggest moving at least closer if not move in together.  He just says Texas.  Living a lot closer  would probably have been a nice compromise if living together really could never happen in Ennis's rule book.  It really is a bit unfair that Jack always has to drive hundreds of miles.  He'd probably like a little break and/ or help on that issue.  I think Jack stokes Ennis's anxieties just enough... by saying "maybe you should get out of there" to make it seem like moving is now Ennis's idea or the idea of moving comes logically out of Ennis's own thought pattern and anxieties.  Jack looks so frustrated when he walks away from that river... having Ennis shoot his "airplane out a the sky" again must have stung.
 :-\ :'(
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

tiawahcowboy

  • Guest
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2006, 10:10:20 pm »
And another one...
"You sleep with the sheep, 100 percent"- can be translated into "I don't want no rose stemming out of you two boys."

Yes, it could be translated into that; but, "You sleep with the sheep, 100 percent"- can be translated into "Jack Twist, I don't want you sleeping in the tent with Ennis Del Mar.

The quaint old time expression, "stemming the rose," had no connection with sexual activity in the first place; it referred to goofing off, as in pulling the stems off of roses,  when there was something more important to do. But, in the case of Jack and Ennis, the fact that they had sex so often and out in the open when the should have been doing their job assignments was their way of stemming the rose. All of their rough-housing horse play was stemming the rose, too.

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2006, 01:02:45 pm »
Quote
And, on a third and more interesting hand (that somewhat contradicts the first option)... I think Jack is being sneaky here.  I think he's trying to pounce on an opportunity.  I feel like you can almost see the wheels spinning in Jack's head for a second or two as he looks at the river before he comments to Ennis about maybe "getting out of there."  If Ennis really is growing worried about his current living situation on his own, well then, it might be the moment to suggest moving at least closer if not move in together.  He just says Texas.  Living a lot closer  would probably have been a nice compromise if living together really could never happen in Ennis's rule book.  It really is a bit unfair that Jack always has to drive hundreds of miles.  He'd probably like a little break and/ or help on that issue.  I think Jack stokes Ennis's anxieties just enough... by saying "maybe you should get out of there" to make it seem like moving is now Ennis's idea or the idea of moving comes logically out of Ennis's own thought pattern and anxieties.  Jack looks so frustrated when he walks away from that river... having Ennis shoot his "airplane out a the sky" again must have stung.

I agree, but I think Ennis gets mad at him not only because he was insisting on moving together, but because Jack paid no attention to what he was trying to tell him. Ennis, for the first time in their relationship, was verbally acknowledging, to a certain extent of course, his true nature. Jack doesn't really listen because he was too hurt, too angry and too lonely to understand and to approach the issue in a different manner. So he's sneaky and takes advantage of what Ennis is telling him to indirectly inisist on having a life together.

Furthermore, I think Ennis felt Jack didn't understand his situation. Not the fact that he is afraid of coming out and all, but his need to be close to his daughters. Being a father was very important for Ennis, and he makes it clear when he answers:

"Texas? Sure and maybe you can convince Alma to let you and Lureen adopt the girls. And then we could just live together, herding sheep. And it'll rain money form LD Newsome and whiskey'll flow in the streams, Jack, that's real smart." 

In other words, he tells Jack to stop dreaming, to stop insisting, to accept once and for all that their life together, as he envisioned it with the little cow and calf operation, isn't going to happen, that there is more in his life than just him.

Jack, obviously, knew the girls were just a shield Ennis was using against having a real relationship with him. First it was his marriage to Alma, and then it was the girls. I'm not saying that Jack tought Ennis's love for his girls wasn't real, just that he didn't consider other possibilities to stay in their lives, and still have a relationship with him, as Jack probably did regarding Bobby. I think this is what triggers Jack's decision to move on and find someone else (or at least try to).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 01:56:22 pm by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2006, 04:58:16 pm »
Good analysis, opinionista! And yours, too, Amanda. I agree with both of you: Jack is pouncing on the opportunity to give the cohabitation (or near-habitation) idea one more shot. The shrug is meant to make the suggestion look more casual than it is. But Ennis is disappointed that Jack blew off his concerns and revelations. So they're at cross purposes, both meaning well but inadvertently stomping on each other.

And opinionista, you also make a good point about the kids. I think both men are good parents. But I think Jack would be willing to leave Bobby behind and move to a little cow-and-calf operation with Ennis. Whereas Ennis would not want to live far from his daughters.


tiawahcowboy

  • Guest
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2006, 05:03:32 pm »
Quote
"Buggery is just fine, but keep your hands off each other, you hear?"

Oh, lets go to a double entendre of a double entendre here. The vulgar word "buggery" comes from the verb, to "bugger" and it has its roots in Old French, "bougre," which was a euphemism for a (non-Roman Catholic Church) "heretic." Bougre's Latin origin is Bulgarus, Bulgarian (member of the Greek Orthodox Church).

A "bugger" can also be a person who "bugs" someone by pestering him. "Bugger off" or "bug off" means "Go away (don't bother me)!" So an annoying pest can be a "bugger" and that have nothing to do with sex at all.

Speaking of "bulgarians," I remember reading in a book about those who were called "Bohemians" in the USA which were the forerunners of the beatnicks. One person said to another in regard to those who lived a Bohemian lifestlye, "We can always call them 'Bulgarians'."

But, back to the word "bugger," the word was commonly used for anal intercourse in the Old West days. I read some old gay novels which used the word.

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2006, 10:21:20 pm »
About the "why don't you move someplace else?" comment -- there's something about Jack's tone of voice there that reminds me of "I can spare you a loan, bud, if you're short on cash..." from the last day on the mountain. I don't know what that means, though.
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Meryl

  • BetterMost Supporter
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,205
  • There's no reins on this one....
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2006, 10:53:33 pm »
About the "why don't you move someplace else?" comment -- there's something about Jack's tone of voice there that reminds me of "I can spare you a loan, bud, if you're short on cash..." from the last day on the mountain. I don't know what that means, though.

That's interesting, and you're right about the tone.  Someone once posted that they felt in the "spare you a loan" scene that Jack was purposely keeping his tone casual to spare Ennis from having to talk about the fact that they were going to be split up.  He could have been keeping his tone more offhand in the "why don't you move" scene in order to spare Ennis, too, since Ennis was clearly worried.  I think it backfired, though, because Ennis got even more alarmed when Jack didn't tell him his fears were groundless.  By suggesting he move he was, in a way, suggesting that maybe Ennis was right and people did "know."  Ennis probably blew up at him partly to cover that fear.
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline nakymaton

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,045
  • aka Mel
Re: Double meanings: Lines that can be taken more than one way
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2006, 11:15:43 pm »
I think it backfired, though...
It backfired both times.

I'm trying to figure this out, and this could be totally wrong. (Disagree with me! Please!) But it seems as though in each case, Ennis has... revealed something? And Jack either doesn't quite understand what Ennis is really saying, or he hopes he's hearing something and he's a bit hesitant about following up on it? And each time, Jack's response isn't the one Ennis wants (if Ennis has any idea what he wants in either case -- which, actually, I doubt; Ennis's feelings are so conflicted).
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.