Author Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments  (Read 117203 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #160 on: July 28, 2006, 05:21:19 pm »
Have you ever listened to the movie on a computer with earphones? Just wondering... 8)
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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #161 on: July 28, 2006, 05:28:48 pm »
Sorry to disillusion the last 2 posters, but there is no verbal communication of any sort in the scene from the time Ennis leaves the kitchen until he returns to the kitchen.  The subtitled version of the movie shows every verbal exchange in quotes, and audible sound, such as horse neighs and bird caws, in parenthesis.  Ennis is struck with emotion at finding these shirts, and as he gets his first whif of the shirt, he inhales (we hear it), then brings it closer and at the same time squeezes the sleeve with the blood.  At that moment he takes 3 quick breaths, as one does in a mild sobbing attack, and as his emotion takes full control, his lip shows a slight quiver. These are normal, but uncontrolled facial movements of anyone in the early throes of expressing the emotion of grief.

I think a lot of you who believe you hear "I love you" do so because that't what you want to hear, and also because of the power of suggestion.  Because this move uses a rural western dialect, with sobbing, chocking up, tears, etc., you fill in the blanks, so to speak.  Unfortunately, there are no blanks here; no "I love you"...
     
Sorry it's clearly there and can be heard as well as seen. Subtitle versons are often translated incorrectly. What is also there in SNIT is Jack saying "c'm  here before "s 'alright"
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 08:18:40 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline dly64

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #162 on: July 28, 2006, 08:09:30 pm »
Sorry to disillusion the last 2 posters, but there is no verbal communication of any sort in the scene from the time Ennis leaves the kitchen until he returns to the kitchen.  The subtitled version of the movie shows every verbal exchange in quotes, and audible sound, such as horse neighs and bird caws, in parenthesis.  Ennis is struck with emotion at finding these shirts, and as he gets his first whif of the shirt, he inhales (we hear it), then brings it closer and at the same time squeezes the sleeve with the blood.  At that moment he takes 3 quick breaths, as one does in a mild sobbing attack, and as his emotion takes full control, his lip shows a slight quiver. These are normal, but uncontrolled facial movements of anyone in the early throes of expressing the emotion of grief.

I think a lot of you who believe you hear "I love you" do so because that't what you want to hear, and also because of the power of suggestion.  Because this move uses a rural western dialect, with sobbing, chocking up, tears, etc., you fill in the blanks, so to speak.  Unfortunately, there are no blanks here; no "I love you"... 

I tell you ... I was as skeptical as you and I thought everyone was crazy. I also used the subtitles, but found that didn't work, either. (Think about when they are riding horses, right before the divorce scene ... the subtitles say: "both chattering". If you listen, Jack says, "I'd love to rope a coyote" .... I am 100% sure he says that).

Front Ranger suggested using headphones. I have done this numerous times and, I promise you, there is so much more you can hear and catch. When I was told where and when to listen, I still thought ... "no human way .... these guys are hearing things". Then I heard it and I said, "I'll be darn! Crap! I'll have to admit I am wrong!" :laugh:

Of course, this is one of those issues right along with TS2: is it ...?
Jack: "It's all right ...."
Ennis: "I'm sorry."
Jack: "It's all right .."
(which, IMO, is what is said ... but whoa! Is that a debate!)

The subtitles say ...
Jack: "I'm sorry."
Ennis: "It's all right ..."
Jack: "It's all right ..."
(which makes no sense to me ....)

And then there are others who say Ennis says nothing. I could go on and on.

Ultimately, I have come to the place where I have realized that my opinion is my opinion. If it works for me, then it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, ya know!?  ;)




Diane

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Offline Daphne7661

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #163 on: July 29, 2006, 12:13:19 am »
Of course, this is one of those issues right along with TS2: is it ...?
Jack: "It's all right ...."
Ennis: "I'm sorry."
Jack: "It's all right .."
(which, IMO, is what is said ... but whoa! Is that a debate!)

The subtitles say ...
Jack: "I'm sorry."
Ennis: "It's all right ..."
Jack: "It's all right ..."
(which makes no sense to me ....)

And then there are others who say Ennis says nothing. I could go on and on.

Ultimately, I have come to the place where I have realized that my opinion is my opinion. If it works for me, then it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, ya know!?  ;)

Hey Diane,

I am glad you continued to listen for the "I Love You" in the shirt/closet scene.

Also, I just want to say that I stand by my original post of what is said in TS2.  Basically, Ennis doesn't say anything.  It's all Jack.

Ennis approaches the tent and kneels down in front of Jack.
Jack puts his hand on Ennis' arm and leans into him.
Ennis, nervous, of course, kind of quickly leans into Jack, maybe to kiss him.  He is kind of interrupted because Jack takes his hat out of his hands.  This somewhat disarms Ennis.
Jack then cups Ennis' face/cheek in his hand and turns those baby blues on Ennis (who could resist him at this point, my goodness) and says, "C'mere".
Ennis doesn't move much and is a bit resistant (nervous) to kiss Jack, so Jack says, "C'mon"
They kiss.
They release.
I think Jack feels a tad guilty for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him (even though he didn't and Ennis really wanted to anyway, but was just nervous).
So, Jack hangs his head a bit and says, "I'm sorry" (sorry for what he perceives as having "pushed" Ennis too quickly perhaps).
Jack then says, "It's all right.  It's all right.  Lie Back.  C'mon."

Ennis says nothing in this scene.  I truly, truly believe that.

Of course, we all see and hear different things, but take what I wrote and watch it again.

I don't trust those subtitles at all.  There are many other parts where they are wrong.

...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #164 on: July 29, 2006, 12:55:47 am »
There's no convincing those of you who think you hear something that isn 't there!  I am asking a friend of mine who works in analyzing  tapes for the police in a major mid-west city to look into it, and I guarantee you we will  discover nothing is said by Ennis.  To those of you who are positive he says "I love you" try to obtain the actual script??

Since one of you claims "those 3 words are pivitol to the story", don't you think Ms Proulx would have written it into the story?  She didn't because it doesn't happen.  That's the last I have to say on this subject.  Believe what you will! 

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #165 on: July 29, 2006, 01:42:02 am »
Hey Diane,

I am glad you continued to listen for the "I Love You" in the shirt/closet scene.

Also, I just want to say that I stand by my original post of what is said in TS2.  Basically, Ennis doesn't say anything.  It's all Jack.

Ennis approaches the tent and kneels down in front of Jack.
Jack puts his hand on Ennis' arm and leans into him.
Ennis, nervous, of course, kind of quickly leans into Jack, maybe to kiss him.  He is kind of interrupted because Jack takes his hat out of his hands.  This somewhat disarms Ennis.
Jack then cups Ennis' face/cheek in his hand and turns those baby blues on Ennis (who could resist him at this point, my goodness) and says, "C'mere".
Ennis doesn't move much and is a bit resistant (nervous) to kiss Jack, so Jack says, "C'mon"
They kiss.
They release.
I think Jack feels a tad guilty for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him (even though he didn't and Ennis really wanted to anyway, but was just nervous).
So, Jack hangs his head a bit and says, "I'm sorry" (sorry for what he perceives as having "pushed" Ennis too quickly perhaps).
Jack then says, "It's all right.  It's all right.  Lie Back.  C'mon."

Ennis says nothing in this scene.  I truly, truly believe that.

Of course, we all see and hear different things, but take what I wrote and watch it again.

I don't trust those subtitles at all.  There are many other parts where they are wrong.


What I here after "c' mon" is "s 'alright" three times. It does look like Ennis says "Oh god" when he is on his back but you can't hear it. None of this is pivotial to the story, just icing on the cake.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 06:29:06 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline dly64

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #166 on: July 29, 2006, 06:23:38 pm »
What I here after "c' mon" is "s 'alright" three times. It do look like Ennis says "Oh god" when he is on his back but you can't here it.None of this is pivotial to the story, just icing on the cake.

Agreed. I just have to laugh. You put ten different people in a room. Each person hears ten different things and interprets the same scene in ten different ways. Personally, I find that incredibly humorous and enormously fun! Shoot, if we all believed and heard the same thing, there wouldn't even be a BetterMost forum!  ;)
Diane

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Marge_Innavera

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #167 on: July 30, 2006, 08:59:08 am »
Of course, this is one of those issues right along with TS2: is it ...?
Jack: "It's all right ...."
Ennis: "I'm sorry."
Jack: "It's all right .."
(which, IMO, is what is said ... but whoa! Is that a debate!)

When the movie was in the theatres, I was certain that Ennis didn't say anything. But the very first time I saw the DVD, Ennis saying "I'm sorry" was so clear it was startling.

And it isn't all that surprising that his lips don't move. One of the flaws of the movie is the editing, which wasn't helped by having to change editors during the process.

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #168 on: July 30, 2006, 03:07:38 pm »
Regarding Marge's  comment about editing:  that's been the main problem with the movie from the beginning.  Somewhere in one of these postings, it is mentioned that Lee's attention to detail was impeccable.  I don't know anything about Lee so I will go along with that, except, all the errors that occur...Alma, Jr. mike wire visible, wrong model truck for the year, change of hands during Jack's bull ride, log disappearance when Agurrie rides up to Jack, etc, etc.  In the scene where Ennis comments that his dad throught all rodeo cowboys were fuckups, Jack replies "The hell they are" and jumps up to do his bull-ride imitation with the whiskey bottle in his left hand.  Camera shift to Ennis, then back to Jack who now has his hat in the same hand (the bottle is still there) and he falls into whatever it is that clatters, and the camera is back to Ennis who is laughing and comments that maybe his dad was right.  When the camera goes back to Jack his hat is rolling on the ground directly next to his head..as if it had just fallen off his head...and the hand, still holding the whiskey bottle, is down around his waist area.  Obviously, this scene is a compilation of several takes, BUT, editing is seriously flawed.  Is this the fault of editors who pieced it together, or the fault of Lee for not paying attention to these errors and correcting them.  I believe I read that there were something like 125 "mistakes" in the movie. That being the case, I cannot agree with Lee's attention to detail as "impeccable".

Regarding the comment that Ennis's lips didn't move when he said "I'm sorry":   this is attributed to the fact that Ennis mutters most of the time, barely moving his lips. But most probably, in an intimate situation such as tis one, full facial muscle control is not usually employed.  His physical closeness to Jack requires low volumn, therefore, little lip movement.  Do your best imitation of Ennis and say "I'm sorry" and I think you'll see what I mean.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #169 on: July 30, 2006, 03:30:23 pm »
Regarding Marge's  comment about editing:  that's been the main problem with the movie from the beginning.  Somewhere in one of these postings, it is mentioned that Lee's attention to detail was impeccable.  I don't know anything about Lee so I will go along with that, except, all the errors that occur...Alma, Jr. mike wire visible, wrong model truck for the year, change of hands during Jack's bull ride, log disappearance when Agurrie rides up to Jack, etc, etc.  In the scene where Ennis comments that his dad throught all rodeo cowboys were fuckups, Jack replies "The hell they are" and jumps up to do his bull-ride imitation with the whiskey bottle in his left hand.  Camera shift to Ennis, then back to Jack who now has his hat in the same hand (the bottle is still there) and he falls into whatever it is that clatters, and the camera is back to Ennis who is laughing and comments that maybe his dad was right.  When the camera goes back to Jack his hat is rolling on the ground directly next to his head..as if it had just fallen off his head...and the hand, still holding the whiskey bottle, is down around his waist area.  Obviously, this scene is a compilation of several takes, BUT, editing is seriously flawed.  Is this the fault of editors who pieced it together, or the fault of Lee for not paying attention to these errors and correcting them.  I believe I read that there were something like 125 "mistakes" in the movie. That being the case, I cannot agree with Lee's attention to detail as "impeccable".

Regarding the comment that Ennis's lips didn't move when he said "I'm sorry":   this is attributed to the fact that Ennis mutters most of the time, barely moving his lips. But most probably, in an intimate situation such as tis one, full facial muscle control is not usually employed.  His physical closeness to Jack requires low volumn, therefore, little lip movement.  Do your best imitation of Ennis and say "I'm sorry" and I think you'll see what I mean.
The editing is choppy at some points but no worse than a lot of movies.

As for SNIT I see and hear Jack say "s'alright"  three times, it does sound a bit  like I'm sorry but sound the same each time.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.