Author Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments  (Read 116980 times)

Offline dly64

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #170 on: July 30, 2006, 04:46:16 pm »
Obviously, this scene is a compilation of several takes, BUT, editing is seriously flawed.  Is this the fault of editors who pieced it together, or the fault of Lee for not paying attention to these errors and correcting them.  I believe I read that there were something like 125 "mistakes" in the movie. That being the case, I cannot agree with Lee's attention to detail as "impeccable".

It is these inconsistencies that we talk about in the “it ain’t right” thread. It just gives us a forum to have a little fun with the movie – especially since this film is so serious.

As for the editing …. humans do it, so there are always going to be flaws. I think the strength of Ang Lee’s films is his sense of composition and his love for the characters. IMO, this is one of the best films I have ever seen (and I have seen a lot … from all time periods). This film has changed my belief that “the best films were already made”.
Diane

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Offline Daphne7661

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #171 on: July 31, 2006, 12:54:07 am »
Having watched BBM over 100 times now, I am quite familiar with Ennis' tightlipped delivery most of the time.

However, in TS2, the "I'm Sorry" is not Ennis' voice in any way, shape or form.  It is Jack's.

I think we all can agree that Jack's and Ennis' voices are quite distinct in their own right.  Even in intimate whispers....
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Offline nic

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #172 on: July 31, 2006, 11:44:08 am »
I think we all can agree that Jack's and Ennis' voices are quite distinct in their own right.  Even in intimate whispers....

I don't know about that Daphne - I think I could do with more of them whispering intimately to each other, just to check,  and the accompanyign visuals wouldn't hurt either ;D
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #173 on: August 01, 2006, 09:30:42 am »
Regarding the comment that Ennis's lips didn't move when he said "I'm sorry":   this is attributed to the fact that Ennis mutters most of the time, barely moving his lips. But most probably, in an intimate situation such as tis one, full facial muscle control is not usually employed.  His physical closeness to Jack requires low volumn, therefore, little lip movement.  Do your best imitation of Ennis and say "I'm sorry" and I think you'll see what I mean.

That's right!  Tried it and " 'm sorry" takes very little lip movement when you're whispering it.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #174 on: August 01, 2006, 09:39:54 am »
Nope, sorry folks.  I tried like my life depended on it.  I sat close to the speaker (I have a very good digital sound system) with the volume up so high that the incidental sounds (e.g. clinking, rustling, breathing) were on the verge of being painful.  Nadda!  I heard no "f*ck me" in TS1, and although Ennis' mouth does move in the shirts scene I heard no "I love you", just breathing.  But "s'alright" is clear as day, and Jack's mouth movements seemed perfectly synchronised to these sounds to me.

Sorry if the rest has already been asked/said, the threads a little long to take it all in and I'm tired...

I'm not saying that y'all crazy or anything, but does this realistically seem like something that Jack would say, ever?  Is it just as reasonable that you're hearing something that sounds like "F*ck Me", but could just as easily be soundtrack distortions, mastering errors and other related sound imperfections???  Even the Ennis "I love you" line, these just don't seem to fit the characters.

My verdict: the power of belief and/or suggestion, coupled with dvd/video mastering imperfections, and "excessive" familiarity (understanding) of the characters' thoughts and motivations, have lead to an unintended (by the film makers) interpretation.
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Offline dly64

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #175 on: August 01, 2006, 10:05:24 am »
Nope, sorry folks.  I tried like my life depended on it.  I sat close to the speaker (I have a very good digital sound system) with the volume up so high that the incidental sounds (e.g. clinking, rustling, breathing) were on the verge of being painful.  Nadda!  I heard no "f*ck me" in TS1, and although Ennis' mouth does move in the shirts scene I heard no "I love you", just breathing.  But "s'alright" is clear as day, and Jack's mouth movements seemed perfectly synchronised to these sounds to me.

Sorry if the rest has already been asked/said, the threads a little long to take it all in and I'm tired...

I'm not saying that y'all crazy or anything, but does this realistically seem like something that Jack would say, ever?  Is it just as reasonable that you're hearing something that sounds like "F*ck Me", but could just as easily be soundtrack distortions, mastering errors and other related sound imperfections???  Even the Ennis "I love you" line, these just don't seem to fit the characters.

My verdict: the power of belief and/or suggestion, coupled with dvd/video mastering imperfections, and "excessive" familiarity (understanding) of the characters' thoughts and motivations, have lead to an unintended (by the film makers) interpretation.

I think that is a valid point. What I would like, however, is to ask Jake and Heath to give the answers to these questions. Then we could settle it once and for all. However, it wouldn't be as much fun as debating about it.  ;D
Diane

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Offline Daphne7661

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #176 on: August 01, 2006, 10:18:49 am »
Some will hear the "I Love You" (closet scene) - Some will not.
Some will hear the "Oh Jack" (closet scene) - Some will not.
Some will hear the "F _ _ _ Me" (TS1) - Some will not.

I hear them all, and I don't mean to say that some don't, so I guess that leaves them up to eternal debate.

However, I am POSITIVE of who says "I'm Sorry" in TS2, and it is Jack!!  In fact, Ennis doesn't say anything in this scene.  Not one word.

I hope the poster above who said he/she was going to have the DVD sound analyzed does.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #177 on: August 01, 2006, 10:34:06 am »
Somewhere in one of these postings, it is mentioned that Lee's attention to detail was impeccable.  I don't know anything about Lee so I will go along with that, except, all the errors that occur...

I agree that some editing details are less than impeccable. Maybe that has to do with the change of editors; others have suggested that on a lower-budget film it's too costly to go back and fix mistakes like thsse. There are a few other minor mistakes I wish weren't there (such as Ennis' Aussie accent in the grocery store scene).

However, when people talk about Lee's attention to detail, they're generally referring to his meticulous planning of metaphors and symbolism and echoed scenes and color patterns and etc. etc. (not all of which are Lee's doing -- some go back to the screenplay and story; others might hyave come from costume or set designers). For example, to establish Jack as being symbolized by wind (sometimes in the form of fans) and then to sprinkle examples throughout the movie, culminating in a huge fan propped between Alma and Ennis in the last scene -- that's attention to detail.

Another example of Lee's attention to detail, IMO, is his inclusion of extremely subtle bits of action or dialogue that are so quick or so peripheral that many people don't notice them even after numerous viewings. Such as Jack and Ennis holding hands during TS1 -- a detail that, though very subtle, few people here would dispute.

And, perhaps, the "fuck me" and "I love you."

The subtitled version of the movie shows every verbal exchange

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  To those of you who are positive he says "I love you" try to obtain the actual script??

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Since one of you claims "those 3 words are pivitol to the story", don't you think Ms Proulx would have written it into the story?

I wouldn't rely on subtitles, the screenplay or Annie Proulx's story to prove or disprove the existence of "I love you." The subtitle writers, as Diane points out here and others have noted in other threads, are incredibly fallible. The "I love you" could have been -- in fact, much more likely was -- conceived during filming, post-screenplay. And I don't remember who, if anyone, claimed the three words are pivotal, but they're not (though if they were, they certainly wouldn't be the only pivotal things in the movie that don't exist in the story, such as the entire character of Cassie).

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I think a lot of you who believe you hear "I love you" do so because that't what you want to hear,


My verdict: the power of belief and/or suggestion

The "I love you" is definitely not something I believed in or wanted to hear -- until I did. I had seen references to it before but always thought they sounded stupid, couldn't imagine Ennis saying such a thing, and never even looked for it. Then one day, I was watching with the volume turned up especially high because I was listening for something else in a different scene. When I got to the closet scene, I was just going along, not looking for anything new ... and then suddenly I saw it and just about fell off the couch. Now I see it every time.

Is it absolutely clear beyond a shadow of doubt that he is saying "I love you"? No. He moves his lips three times. He makes three sounds. You can't tell exactly what the words are, or even for sure that they are words. So yeah, he could possibly be saying "Here's my shirt!" or "These need washing!" or, as 2robots4u suggests, he could be sobbing with lips quivering. Because it's so obscure, you have to just figure out for yourself what fits the audio and visual and what seems most probable, and when I apply those tests I see him saying "I love you."

The presence of "I love you" does not change anything about the meaning of the movie, so if you don't see it or don't want to see it, that's fine. Personally, I have come to love it, but to me it is, like jpwagoneer says, the icing on the cake. It deepens my sadness and sympathy for Ennis. It is beautiful and tragic and poignant. But there's plenty of beauty and tragedy and poignancy there already, so the movie is just fine without it (obviously).

Now, as for the "fuck me," I've never heard it. But based on my "I love you" experience and the testimonials I've seen on this thread, I'm completely open to the possibility that it's there.

And as for "sorry" "s'alright" I go back and forth (though tend to believe it's all Jack saying "s'alright). I think that unless we hear from Jake or Heath or Ang, there will never be certainty or a full concensus.

Offline Gustavo

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Re: Saw/heard the "I love you"!!!! (I think.)
« Reply #178 on: August 01, 2006, 10:37:11 am »
I'm still in the camp of hearing the "I'm sorry" out of Ennis during the second tent scene.  I truly do hear it (I always heard it in the theatres and I hear it on my DVD too).  But, I truly want to hear it... so maybe my judgment is skewed.


Now, I'm curious too. Why Jack said "I'm sorry"? I realize Jack's mouth didn't move when he spoken these words. Maybe the director put this dialogue before edited the scene.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #179 on: August 01, 2006, 10:53:44 am »
I'm not saying that y'all crazy or anything, but does this realistically seem like something that Jack would say, ever?  Is it just as reasonable that you're hearing something that sounds like "F*ck Me", but could just as easily be soundtrack distortions, mastering errors and other related sound imperfections???  Even the Ennis "I love you" line, these just don't seem to fit the characters.

I don't hear them, either, but these are basically my reasons: I don't think that the lines are things that either one of the characters would say. The power of DISbelief, perhaps.

If other people hear them, that's fine. (Just don't ever watch the movie with me and yell them along at the screen. ;D Now THAT would ruin the movie for me.)
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