Author Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments  (Read 109564 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,549
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #90 on: June 22, 2006, 12:04:17 am »
I never bothered to hide my trips to Bettermost because I thought nobody was interested in my family. I was logged in "forever" at home. My husband became curious one day and went in and read "all of my posts." (I don't think he read them all, but quite a few. He really blew up at first (didn't drop a dozen eggs tho) but when he thought about it he realized that it's something that keeps me sane. And he seems to understand...even says "Say hello to those Brokies" sometimes when I head off to the home office. Tho he still refuses to see the movie...
When you see the smiley face in the sky, the pandemic will be over!

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,639
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #91 on: June 22, 2006, 12:14:13 am »
Clearly, Lee, I'm an Ennis and you're a Jack -- or you were forced into the role of Jack, anyway.

If my husband read all my posts, I guess I'd have to tell him it don't mean nothin and threaten to make him eat the floor!  And he's not that much against seeing the movie himself; he claims not to like romances, has never shown much interest. But if I forced the issue, he probably would. Nevertheless, he hasn't, and now I'm to the point of not even wanting to watch it with him.

Anyway ...now I'm straying pretty far OT, and I was the OP!



Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2006, 09:32:31 am »
You know how some people have said they think Ennis says "I love you" when he finds the shirts? Well, I have always been so skeptical about this that I've never even bothered to look for it.

But today I was skipping around my rental DVD, watching key scenes maybe for one the last time until fall. And I had the volume up higher than usual and noticed I kept hearing little muttered things that I hadn't heard in the past. So when I got to the shirt scene I decided to listen -- and watch -- really closely.

And now I think I agree.

I looked for it exactly the way I've tried to figure out "sorry/s'alright" -- watching for whether Ennis' lips move -- and in that scene they don't, which is why I moved to the "no sorry" camp. But in the closet scene his lips do move -- only you can hardly see it because the shirts are in the way. It's right after he takes a deep breath, trying to smell Jack's scent on the shirts. You can only see about a quarter inch of his mouth. But he moves as it if saying three words -- those three particular ones, in fact. And under the music, you can just barely hear something that sounds like three words being muttered.

I rewound and watched it about four more times with the volume cranked to 60 and my eyes about three inches away from the screen, and each time I became more and more convinced.

What do you all think?

I vehemantly disagree with you on both points. The first one ... I am convinced Ennis does not say "I love you" when he is sniffing the shirts. After reading a quote from Diana Ossana, I believe I am right on that point:

When told of his daughter's impending wedding, Ennis (Heath Ledger) initially mentions having to work on her big day, but quickly reconsiders. "I reckon they can find themselves a new cowboy," he says.

"It is the first time in Ennis' life that he shifts his mind," Ossana points out. "It's also the only time he mentions love."


As for the "It's alright".... "I'm sorry" exchange. I feel strongly that does occur. Firstly, if you look at the subtitles, it says it. Sedcondly, you can definately see Ennis' lips move (although barely. Don't forget he hardly opens his mouth to say anything. Even the, "Jack, I swear ..." is hard to decipher). Lastly, if you turn up the volume, you can hear it.

Anyone else feel this same way?
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline welliwont

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2006, 10:12:18 am »

As for the "It's alright".... "I'm sorry" exchange. I feel strongly that does occur. Firstly, if you look at the subtitles, it says it. Sedcondly, you can definately see Ennis' lips move (although barely. Don't forget he hardly opens his mouth to say anything. Even the, "Jack, I swear ..." is hard to decipher). Lastly, if you turn up the volume, you can hear it.

Anyone else feel this same way?


Hello dly64,

I guess you are fairly new here, so I will have to be the one to tell you that the "I'm sorry / s'awright" debate has been outlawed on the BetterMost board, could get you killed if you should come to discuss it here.  :o

J
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline JCinNYC2006

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
  • What happens in Calgary....the whole world knows!
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2006, 10:18:45 am »
As for the "It's alright".... "I'm sorry" exchange. I feel strongly that does occur. Firstly, if you look at the subtitles, it says it. Sedcondly, you can definately see Ennis' lips move (although barely. Don't forget he hardly opens his mouth to say anything. Even the, "Jack, I swear ..." is hard to decipher). Lastly, if you turn up the volume, you can hear it.

Anyone else feel this same way?

I had never participated in the debate about what's said in this scene, but seeing the movie in San Francisco rang a bell.  The sound quality was really incredible...little details like the salt being shaken (thanks Ruby) and stuff like that.  So when that second tent scene came up, it sounded very clearly like the exchange went: E-"I'm sorry."  J-"It's alright, it's alright."  Some of the other folks who came heard it the same way (right Nipith?  :D  I haven't 'gone to the video' yet to double check but I probably will at some point....

Juan
What is essential, is invisible to the eye....

Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2006, 10:44:46 am »
I guess you are fairly new here, so I will have to be the one to tell you that the "I'm sorry / s'awright" debate has been outlawed on the BetterMost board, could get you killed if you should come to discuss it here. 

I am guessing that this has been hotly debated???? At least I am glad JCinNYC2006 agrees with me. Hmmmm .... any other taboo topics I should be aware of?
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,639
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2006, 10:58:21 am »
I vehemantly disagree with you on both points. The first one ... I am convinced Ennis does not say "I love you" when he is sniffing the shirts. After reading a quote from Diana Ossana, I believe I am right on that point:

When told of his daughter's impending wedding, Ennis (Heath Ledger) initially mentions having to work on her big day, but quickly reconsiders. "I reckon they can find themselves a new cowboy," he says.

"It is the first time in Ennis' life that he shifts his mind," Ossana points out. "It's also the only time he mentions love."


As for the "It's alright".... "I'm sorry" exchange. I feel strongly that does occur. Firstly, if you look at the subtitles, it says it. Sedcondly, you can definately see Ennis' lips move (although barely. Don't forget he hardly opens his mouth to say anything. Even the, "Jack, I swear ..." is hard to decipher). Lastly, if you turn up the volume, you can hear it.

Anyone else feel this same way?


I go back and forth on the sorry/s'alright myself, so I won't take a stand here. But I will say that the people who write the subtitles are in the same position we are -- they just have to listen and watch and try to figure it out for themselves. People here who have compared different subtitled versions say the subtitles vary from one to the next.

As for Diana's comment on the "I love you" issue, sorry, but I don't think she's an infallible authority, either. Of course it's true that the first time in the script that Ennis mentions love is when he's talking to Alma Jr. But I'm assuming she wasn't standing there in the closet on the day they filmed the shirts scene. If he did said it, it would have been a decision made by Ang and/or Heath, outside of the directions of the screenplay, perhaps at the last minute, perhaps not even done in all of the takes ... I mean, I have no idea what the circumstances might have been, but I'm assuming it could have been done without consulting Diana, possibly without her even hearing about it or noticing it afterward. It's not meant to call attention to itself, that's for sure. If there at all, it's not supposed to be a major plot turning point -- you would hardly even call it him "mentioning" love. If there, it's supposed to be, well, nearly indiscernible.

Oh, while I was writing this, your latest post came in, dly. JakeTwist is kidding, it's not taboo. But what she's saying is that it's been discussed a million times, never with any satisfactory resolution or concensus. Rest assured that JCinNYC2006 is far from the only person who agrees with you.

But there are no taboo topics here -- well, except those that attack or hurt somebody or involve posting photos containing full frontal nudity. Otherwise, bring up anything you want!


Offline welliwont

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 805
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2006, 01:48:47 pm »
I am guessing that this has been hotly debated???? At least I am glad JCinNYC2006 agrees with me. Hmmmm .... any other taboo topics I should be aware of?


I hope you got the part where I was pulling your leg!!    ;D :laugh:

Hotly debated is an understatement!  This has been the most contentious topic, IMO.  There have been more posts on this enigma than....    welll I don't even know what to compare it to. ::)  there was also a poll  --  I have seached for 20 mins cannot locate it yet. but I will!

Welcome to BetterMost dly64!  It's a great place! :) :)


PS to Juan:


but seeing the movie in San Francisco rang a bell.  The sound quality was really incredible...little details like the salt being shaken (thanks Ruby) and stuff like that.  So when that second tent scene came up, it sounded very clearly like the exchange went: E-"I'm sorry."  J-"It's alright, it's alright."  Some of the other folks who came heard it the same way (right Nipith?  :D  I haven't 'gone to the video' yet to double check but I probably will at some point....

Juan

That is very interesting, I myself am waiting for it to come back to a cinema near me at which time I will be going to see it at least one more time, I look forward to hearing this passage more clearly, as you did!  I sure hope I can hear it better.  I have glued my ear to the speakers when viewing the DVD, and well, I don't even want to get into the fray on this one, I believe what I believe, unless I hear / see it differently at a big-screen viewing.

BTW does anyone know where the big long thread with the debate and the poll went to?   It used to be at BM, it thought it was under "Chez Tremblay"  I thought it had FNIT in the title, but I can't find it for dly64.

Anyone?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 02:00:23 pm by JakeTwist »
Then the clouds opened up and God said, "I hate you, Alfafa."

Offline dly64

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2006, 06:40:56 pm »
I hope you got the part where I was pulling your leg!!    ;D :laugh:

Hotly debated is an understatement!  This has been the most contentious topic, IMO.  There have been more posts on this enigma than....    welll I don't even know what to compare it to. ::)  there was also a poll  --  I have seached for 20 mins cannot locate it yet. but I will!

Oh, I absolutely knew you were joking. When you see my posts, you will probably realize that I have a very sarcastic sense of humor. :laugh: You will also see that I have a bleeding heart. What an odd combination, eh?  ::)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 05:40:09 pm by dly64 »
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,228
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #99 on: June 24, 2006, 04:07:01 am »
Quote
people who write the subtitles are in the same position we are -- they just have to listen and watch and try to figure it out for themselves.

I have always figured they'd be getting an "official text" from the distributor to go with the subtitling preparation and to help them in the listening process - at least as far as subtitling in other languages go. Doesn't mean the official text can't have errors in the first place, of course.....  But I noted that "Don Wroe" was spelled correctly in the subtitling over here - and there's absolutely no way that would have happened if the translator didn't have the correct name in writing! (Though if he was extremely diligent he could have gotten it from the original short story).

Perhaps the official text is the one being used for original English subtitling, and that one is based on the spoken dialogue as interpreted by a subtitler, and everything else flows from that. So if there's an error in that one, it gets magnified. Then again, the English subtitles of the SNIT doesn't only have the "I'm sorry" but adds " C'mon, lie back down" or some such - which has *not* been picked up in the translations.

Perhaps it's just that they all actually give less attention to all the subtitilng and translating correctness and completeness than we do? :o  ;)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 07:03:01 am by Mikaela »