Women and Marriage

[Brown Eyes]

The thing I hate the most is when even the wife's first name gets left out. As in, "Mr. and Mrs. John Doe" or even just "Mrs. John Doe." Oh, that's horrible.

I completely agree with this sentiment Bud. 

One thing I find fascinating is a generational difference in attitude about this particular topic.  I find that sometimes much, much older women (of my grandmother's era 80 and 90 year olds, etc.) they seem to really like the old formality of using the "Mrs. John Doe" format.  I think there is a very different attitude about this in terms of a kind of etiquette.  I notice this here at work with some of our much older trustees too.  They cling to the husband's name issue in a way that may seem strange to younger women.

[serious crayons]

One thing I find fascinating is a generational difference in attitude about this particular topic.  I find that sometimes much, much older women (of my grandmother's era 80 and 90 year olds, etc.) they seem to really like the old formality of using the "Mrs. John Doe" format.  I think there is a very different attitude about this in terms of a kind of etiquette.  I notice this here at work with some of our much older trustees too.  They cling to the husband's name issue in a way that may seem strange to younger women.

Sadly, back in the era when they got married, having a husband was a woman's only route to recognition and status. If her husband was prominent and successful, so much the better, but even if not, at least it showed they were married and not (gasp!) spinsters. So to lose that, and be plain old Jane Doe, is stripping them of this marker.  Maybe they feel approximately the way Dr. Doe might feel nowadays if you referred to her as Miss Doe.

My mom, by the way, was referred to in some junk mail as "Mrs. [my dad's name]" as long as she lived, even though she'd been divorced for about 30 years. She may have called herself that back in the '60s, but not for a long, long time.

[Clyde-B]

Sadly, back in the era when they got married, having a husband was a woman's only route to recognition and status. If her husband was prominent and successful, so much the better, but even if not, at least it showed they were married and not (gasp!) spinsters. So to lose that, and be plain old Jane Doe, is stripping them of this marker.  Maybe they feel approximately the way Dr. Doe might feel nowadays if you referred to her as Miss Doe.

My mom, by the way, was referred to in some junk mail as "Mrs. [my dad's name]" as long as she lived, even though she'd been divorced for about 30 years. She may have called herself that back in the '60s, but not for a long, long time.

I think you are right.  Since, in the past men were seen as holding the power, assuming his name - Mrs. John Doe - was a way of assuming some of that power for herself.  Not a bad choice at the time.

[delalluvia]

I guess the one fundamental aspect of the unfairness here, as del and others have suggested, is that the pressure to deal with the name issue falls on the woman and usually only on the woman.

The fact that men are so unwilling to change their names really speaks to something pretty deeply and ideologically ingrained in many western cultures (and certainly the U.S. predominantly).

Exactly.  The man has little to no concern about it.  He remains who he is his entire life unless forced to change by his wife.

I have known women who married into families where the name of the husband was so incredibly important that the wife would be insulting an entire family should she not take his name and should she not name her first born son according to their family tradition.

I have never heard of any men in the U.S. culture who find themselves in similar situations.

[delalluvia]

I think you are right.  Since, in the past men were seen as holding the power, assuming his name - Mrs. John Doe - was a way of assuming some of that power for herself.  Not a bad choice at the time.

It was extremely common.  I remember reading in a book about military wives in the 60's who also assumed the status of their husband's military rank.  e.g. the wife of a major got more respect than the wife of a captain.

[underdown]

I once lived in a country town where, if a local girl, Mary Smith, married a new arrival, John Brown, women would introduce him as Mary Smith's husband, John.
Men would introduce him as John Brown, who married Frank Smith's daughter, Mary.
Oh, and 'new arrival' meant someone who had been there only a few years.
 

[nakymaton]

Maybe they feel approximately the way Dr. Doe might feel nowadays if you referred to her as Miss Doe.

Heh. I actually have that happen all the time - I get referred to as "Mrs. Mylastname" (which is particularly funny, because I kept my last name, so how does the "Mrs." title fit with that, anyway?). The correct title would be "Dr.", and I should probably be more pompous about it than I am, just to remind the kids that I'm as legitimate as my male colleagues. (I should ask my male colleagues if they get referred to as "Mr.", or whether everyone automatically calls them "Dr.", or whether they just get called by their last names, without any title of respect.)

[delalluvia]

Heh. I actually have that happen all the time - I get referred to as "Mrs. Mylastname" (which is particularly funny, because I kept my last name, so how does the "Mrs." title fit with that, anyway?). The correct title would be "Dr.", and I should probably be more pompous about it than I am, just to remind the kids that I'm as legitimate as my male colleagues. (I should ask my male colleagues if they get referred to as "Mr.", or whether everyone automatically calls them "Dr.", or whether they just get called by their last names, without any title of respect.)

Back when the title Ms. was still relatively new there was a little Reader's Digest like blurb in a magazine.  When selecting a jury, an attorney turned to this older woman, and asked,

"Is it Miss, Mrs. or Ms?"

She replied,

"It's Dr."