Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)

[louisev]

Yeah, I get that is what I was "supposed" to take away from the movie - but I didn't.  IMO, there are a lot better ways to show women standing up for themselves and enjoying their own bodies.  And I disagree with the notion depicted that there is no place for women who stand up for themselves or who enjoy their own bodies and the right to their own sexual enjoyment.  I do both - and I'm very much alive. 

Yes, I can definitely understand that, Louise.  But does N.O.W. get as much press or attention as it used to?  I don't think it does.

I haven't any idea.

[Brown Eyes]

I think all the debates about NOW and Thelma and Louise are interesting here... but, it goes without saying that there's A LOT more to the idea of feminism than either of those two things.  And, I don't think feelings about either one particular movie or one particular organization should be the only guiding reasons for thinking of oneself as a feminist.

Feminism has such a longer history and means so many different things.  


And, on to a totally different subject...

Did anyone see Chris Matthews Hardball tonight (and no, this comment is not about Chris or his show itself)?  He had a woman on who has been working for women's rights against the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan for years (apparently literacy and education are some of her main concerns).  She was really awe inspiring.  She was wearing a traditional head scarf (not covering her face at all) and had a very quiet demeanor, but she was just so powerful.  It's amazing to me to think of the courage it must take to do the kind of work she's engaged in in that part of the world.  I wish I could remember her name.  I should have written it down when I was watching it.  Then he had on an American commentator who was really strangely dismissive of her work and her direct experiences in the region.  It was almost flat out rude, and kind of baffling to watch.  Chris was very terse wth the commentator guy and his odd attitude.

[Brown Eyes]

well, unfortunately for feminism, N.O.W. is "the largest feminist organization in the USA" and gets the most press and the most attention.  So when they made Thelma and Louise their official mascots, they were speaking for the largest organized body of women's rights activists in this country.  And I didn't want to have anything to do with them.

And, I just have to say... that it's OK for NOW to call itself a feminist organization.  Because in its own way, that's what it is.  But, it doesn't mean that one organization gets to define what the more general word "feminism" means.  You can be a feminist of a different sort and disagree with NOW (although, I think NOW evolves a lot and has evolved a lot over time).  I remember back in earlier days of the organization there was a lot of debate about how or if lesbian causes and concerns could or did fit within the mission of NOW.  And, eventually, they made room for lesbian issues within NOW. 

There have always been competing feminist points of view throughout the struggle for women's rights and even back into the suffrage era.  There were competing suffrage organizations with very different strategies, tactics, goals and beliefs.

And, certain things become outmoded too.  Maybe NOW is outmoded or something.  But, that doesn't have much of an impact on how I think of the term feminism, because feminism is much bigger than that to me.

[BelAir]

I saw Thelma and Louise as a teenager and was quite taken with it.

For the record, it's Louise, played by Susan Sarandon (not Thelma, played by Geena Davis), that shoots the guy who tried to rape Thelma.

Why did I like the movie?  In a 'fantastic' way - it's fun to see women kick ass, sometimes.  Much more fun than watching Jean Claude Van Damm or Steven Segal beat people up.  One of the reasons I like the show Alias.  Of course I don't think they're role models, but I do think they represent struggles faced my many women/people.  And what can go wrong when you have no [known] way to cope with all the sh*t that you're going through.
And I do think there is a point about Thelma finally enjoying sex - but this same cataclysmic moment allows their downfall - their money is stolen, they go on their crime spree, and ultimately find no way out...  How can one enjoy sex when it leads to such horrible things??

(fwiw, not trying to justify anything in particular, just explain my own reactions to the movie...)

Amanda (or anyone), I wonder if you could comment as to how you feel about feminism/feminist as a 'label'?

For example, I feel I am at heart a pacifist (hence the 'fantasy' of kicking ass).  No matter what horrors or atrocities another has committed, I do not feel I could rationally justify harm to them.  (Harm being different than punishment.)  Not to say that I wouldn't get angry or lash out...  And I use the term pacifist to separate myself from someone who feels differently - that there are circumstances where harm is justified.

Do you feel using/accepting/embracing the term feminist separates you from others?  Who specifically?  (I am curious... not trying to berate anyone...)

[Brown Eyes]

Hi BelAir,

I remember I enjoyed Thelma and Louise when I saw it too.  I haven't seen it for years, and years and years.  So, I don't remember all the details about it.  But, I do remember the rape scenario and the idea of being defended and "saved" from a situation like that by a powerful female friend seemed, well, very poweful to me.  And, I do understand what you mean about there just being something fun sometimes about seeing confident and bold women "kick ass" sometimes.  One thing I recall about Thelma and Louise is that most or many of the scenarios they got into were pretty over-the-top or exaggerated.

And, I'll also say that for a number of years, I was a card carrying member of NOW.  I'm not any longer.  I simply let my membership lapse a few years back and haven't renewed.  I don't feel particularly defensive about arguing for or against NOW.  It's fine to me if some folks don't agree with that organization.  I do feel very defensive and protective of the concept of feminism more broadly though.

Well, in a nutshell (and elaborating on my posts at the beginning of this thread where I talked a bit about what feminism means to me)... I think it's a way of proclaiming in a proud and clear way that women's rights issues and gender equality issues are really important to me and fundamental to my world view.  I know there are lots of people out there who see the term "feminism" as something really negative and I just refuse to let that view of the word get to me.  Also, as I mentioned in earlier posts, I think of feminism as having a centuries long history... going well beyond the 60s and 70s women's rights era (sometimes I think the term feminism is far too confined to an understanding based on that era).  I embrace the term feminism as a way to honor all the women and men who have worked for so long to fight for progress in terms of women's rights and gender equality on all sorts of fronts (education, voting rights, political issues, work issues, health issues, etc.).

[BelAir]

Hi BelAir,

I remember I enjoyed Thelma and Louise when I saw it too.  I haven't seen it for years, and years and years.  So, I don't remember all the details about it.  But, I do remember the rape scenario and the idea of being defended and "saved" from a situation like that by a powerful female friend seemed, well, very poweful to me.  And, I do understand what you mean about there just being something fun sometimes about seeing confident and bold women "kick ass" sometimes.  One thing I recall about Thelma and Louise is that most or many of the scenarios they got into were pretty over-the-top or exaggerated.

And, I'll also say that for a number of years, I was a card carrying member of NOW.  I'm not any longer.  I simply let my membership lapse a few years back and haven't renewed.  I don't feel particularly defensive about arguing for or against NOW.  It's fine to me if some folks don't agree with that organization.  I do feel very defensive and protective of the concept of feminism more broadly though.

Well, in a nutshell (and elaborating on my posts at the beginning of this thread where I talked a bit about what feminism means to me)... I think it's a way of proclaiming in a proud and clear way that women's rights issues and gender equality issues are really important to me and fundamental to my world view.  I know there are lots of people out there who see the term "feminism" as something really negative and I just refuse to let that view of the word get to me.  Also, as I mentioned in earlier posts, I think of feminism as having a centuries long history... going well beyond the 60s and 70s women's rights era (sometimes I think the term feminism is far too confined to an understanding based on that era).  I embrace the term feminism as a way to honor all the women and men who have worked for so long to fight for progress in terms of women's rights and gender equality on all sorts of fronts (education, voting rights, political issues, work issues, health issues, etc.).

I liked it a lot - so I saw it 1000x!

 

Thanks for writing more, Amanda...

So, if I am interpreting you correctly, you feel like feminism/feminist isn't something that specifically separates you from others (in contrast to my feeling about pacifist/pacifism) - but it's more like a "badge" (sorry it's the only word that jumps to mind), or a bumper sticker of support, if that makes any sense?  To try to say it another way, obviously the term(s) separate you from those who disagree with you, but that separation isn't central to how you feel about feminism?

(It's interesting to me to hear your perspective, because I guess I've always felt/thought of "-ism/-ist" words as labels...)

[BelAir]

Hey - the poll miraculously changed while I've been reading the thread!!!

 

(I went with 'not exactly sure what a feminist is')

[serious crayons]

well, unfortunately for feminism, N.O.W. is "the largest feminist organization in the USA" and gets the most press and the most attention.  So when they made Thelma and Louise their official mascots, they were speaking for the largest organized body of women's rights activists in this country.  And I didn't want to have anything to do with them.

To me, NOW is to feminism sort of as the Catholic church is to Christianity. It's one big organization representing a large chunk of the group, but it's not the whole group. And it's possible to be in the group -- that is, to hold the beliefs that define the group -- without belonging to any organization at all.

It's not a perfect analogy, because most Christians do belong to one church or another. Whereas I don't think most feminists belong to any feminist organization.

Do you feel using/accepting/embracing the term feminist separates you from others?  Who specifically?  (I am curious... not trying to berate anyone...)

To me, it mainly separates me from someone who does not feel that women are entitled to the same rights as men -- i.e., sexists. It's hard to imagine there being any other options in between. I guess I subscribe to a very passive idea of feminism.

I don't think one has to be either a NOW member or even an activist to be a feminist. I don't think one has to hold one particular set of beliefs, not agree with all other feminists about everything, nor live one's life in any particular way. I do think one has to believe in equal rights very strongly, though, and to be aware enough to notice when those rights are being compromised, to stand up for them if possible when, or if, push comes to shove.

A lot of it is internal and attitudinal. A feminist, for example, might iron all of her husband's shirts because she loves her husband and wants to do him this nice favor. If she irons the shirts because she feels that's a woman's duty to her husband as king of his castle and head of the family, then she's probably not a feminist.

A couple of other clarifications: I enjoyed Thelma and Louise, too. I just saw it as entertainment, not as a triumph for women. But it was also a bit refreshing -- not the murder, but the fact that it showed women not relying on men to rescue them. It was very rare in movies in them days -- less so now -- for women in distress to not have to be saved by men.

Also, I have never belonged to NOW, but not because of some strong philosophical difference with the organization. I'm just not much of a joiner.

Hey - the poll miraculously changed while I've been reading the thread!!!

The thread genie granted your wish! 

[delalluvia]

college students are not considered "unemployed".

Can we spell "misrepresentation"?

I think she meant the current unemployment rate.

And whether college students are considered 'unemployed' or not, the end result is the same.  No money for insurance?  No medical care.

[delalluvia]

To me, NOW is to feminism sort of as the Catholic church is to Christianity. It's one big organization representing a large chunk of the group, but it's not the whole group. And it's possible to be in the group -- that is, to hold the beliefs that define the group -- without belonging to any organization at all.

It's not a perfect analogy, because most Christians do belong to one church or another. Whereas I don't think most feminists belong to any feminist organization.

Umm, pretty good analogy.  I was a card carrying member of NOW as were some of my friends, but like atz, I let my membership lapse.  Too many causes, too little money to donate to all of them.

Quote from: BelAir on Yesterday at 09:47:27 PM
Do you feel using/accepting/embracing the term feminist separates you from others?  Who specifically?  (I am curious... not trying to berate anyone...)

To me, it mainly separates me from someone who does not feel that women are entitled to the same rights as men -- i.e., sexists. It's hard to imagine there being any other options in between. I guess I subscribe to a very passive idea of feminism.

What crayons said.  I don't think there is an in-between.  Either a human being in their right mind and adult has the same rights as another or they don't.