Author Topic: Forced "Out"  (Read 9520 times)

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2006, 04:16:11 pm »
I'm not for forced outing either, but sometimes when it serves to expose hypocrisies, I tend to take guilty pleasure in it. Some of you will remember back in the days at PT, there was a story about a pastor who had been out spoken in his community against gay rights, then was caught propositioning an undercover cop in a hotel restroom. I'm sorry to say, in that case, I couldn't help but feel like the world is better off for that "forced outing".

I do agree with Barb, that denying the rumors with a negative comment is hurtful and adds to the stigma.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2006, 06:22:37 pm »
I'm not for forced outing either, but sometimes when it serves to expose hypocrisies, I tend to take guilty pleasure in it. Some of you will remember back in the days at PT, there was a story about a pastor who had been out spoken in his community against gay rights, then was caught propositioning an undercover cop in a hotel restroom. I'm sorry to say, in that case, I couldn't help but feel like the world is better off for that "forced outing".

I do agree with Barb, that denying the rumors with a negative comment is hurtful and adds to the stigma.

I agree that a 'mind your own business' is the best answer, that can also appear to be a neutral nolo contendre type answer and after a while, some people - in the public eye especially - may get exasperated of the subject being brought up again and again and again for years and years and years since "s/he didn't deny it" and finally just blurt out the declaration.  It isn't meant to be hurtful, but to get others off their backs.

As for the other, unfortunately there are still laws on the books and the cop was just doing his job.  I don't call this an 'out-ing'.  Had the guy just stuck to dating secretly, he might have kept the secret he so obviously wanted to.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 06:25:02 pm by delalluvia »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2006, 07:03:57 pm »
I agree that a 'mind your own business' is the best answer, that can also appear to be a neutral nolo contendre type answer and after a while, some people - in the public eye especially - may get exasperated of the subject being brought up again and again and again for years and years and years since "s/he didn't deny it" and finally just blurt out the declaration.  It isn't meant to be hurtful, but to get others off their backs.

I understand that it didn't come from a hurtful intention. But it still hurts. By answering negatively, it still plays into the homophobia. I don't even demand people say "Mind your own business." Like Barb pointed out, Jake's denial with a positive answer "We're good friends" is a really classy way to address it. Celebrity can say "I'm straight". That's a good way to be open and not make it negative.

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As for the other, unfortunately there are still laws on the books and the cop was just doing his job.  I don't call this an 'out-ing'.  Had the guy just stuck to dating secretly, he might have kept the secret he so obviously wanted to.

I agree the cop was doing his job. That's not where the outing came from. It came from media attention. It's always the media that does the outing. And for the most part I'd say the media over steps the bounds of decency, though I also recognize freedom of the press. I think they have a right to "out" people, but it is up to us to not buy their stories if we find it offensive that they do.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2006, 07:12:03 pm »
I don't even demand people say "Mind your own business." Like Barb pointed out, Jake's denial with a positive answer "We're good friends" is a really classy way to address it.

It is, but it's not a specific answer for someone looking for it.  Obviously, gay people have friends too.

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Celebrity can say "I'm straight". That's a good way to be open and not make it negative.

Agree.

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I agree the cop was doing his job. That's not where the outing came from. It came from media attention.

I don't think it was an 'out'ing' by the media as much as a juicy story of a law-breaker busted by cops.  Any outspoken religious person being caught 'sinning' is headline worthy.

Hence the shit that's about to hit the fan with our man Mel Gibson and his alleged DUI.

Offline Katie77

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2006, 07:31:27 pm »
I think what happens with these people who the press continually keep saying...."rumours are that so and so is gay"....makes it sound like there is a stigma to being gay.and that they are finding some "dirt" on the person.....

It puts that person in a very awkward position, a position, that they didnt create, but some press rumour monger has created.....

By saying "no, I am not gay".....it can be taken as "no, dont put that stigma on me", or it can be taken that they are just stating a fact, so there once again, leaves the bloody press to interpret their reply in a way that will attract some headline....

I remember someone answering to a rumour one time saying, "no, I am not gay, but if I was, I would be just as happy to be saying, yes, I am gay"......

There is no easy way out for these people, and one would have to have some sympathy for them because, once rumours start going around about them, they end up in a position of being damned if they dont and damned if the do...reply....

And as we know, it is just the gay issue that they have to cope with, there is always, "so and so is pregnant", "so and so is separated from his/her partner"..."so and so is having an affair"...it goes on and on.....anything to sell magazines and newspapers....its the price of fame I guess...where they lose their privacy.

And we can say "who bloody cares"....but people are curious by nature, and its us who buy these magazines and newspapers, and I do think, that most of us read things like that and say "ok....he/she is gay....now what else is new?".....nobody stopped buying Elton John or George Michael records because they are gay, people would still watch Oprah, the world would still go on.....

As a bit of humour....if the magazine said "so and so is straight....and happily married.....would we be all waiting with baited breath to hear a denial of this.......
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2006, 07:49:21 pm »
As a bit of humour....if the magazine said "so and so is straight....and happily married.....would we be all waiting with baited breath to hear a denial of this.......

Depends on who they were talking about.
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Offline silkncense

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2006, 10:03:31 pm »
Chris - I love your logic - & wouldn't it be a better world if people (including the news media  ;)) actually employed it!

I also agree that if someone is being hypocritical & PUBLICLY using their influence to negatively impact another persons life - that hypocracy should be revealed absolutely!  And I too would take (not so) guilty pleasure in it!

I am still considering whether stating "I'm not gay" is a negative comment when stated by someone straight.  When I say, "I'm not married" I'm not implying that I think being married is a negative thing (or am I ???).  Not that anyone cares to ask me, but if they did, I would answer, "I'm straight"   So, I can see why the opposite may ring as approaching the question from the negative side...
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2006, 12:50:10 am »
I am still considering whether stating "I'm not gay" is a negative comment when stated by someone straight.  When I say, "I'm not married" I'm not implying that I think being married is a negative thing (or am I ).  Not that anyone cares to ask me, but if they did, I would answer, "I'm straight"   So, I can see why the opposite may ring as approaching the question from the negative side...

Thanks silk, I agree, I really liked your consideration of whether "I'm not gay" was negative, I was thinking along those lines also.  I take that thought even further though.  I'm not a woman, so if I say so is that sexist?  Some may think this is a silly comparison, but what if I told you that I was once accused of being sexist because I used the word "human" because it has the word "man" in it.  Ludicrous?  I thought so, but it did make me think about the nature of thought when combined with attitude, and how lots of different people can see the same evidence and come up with completely different conclusions.

For those of you with strong protective ideas about sexual orientation, bless you.  You are the people that I hold in the highest regard.  You want to protect those that for a very long time were used as scapegoats for a world that thought being gay was a weakness.  For most of my life I believed them, because I didn't know better, but more and more I see being gay as my greatest attribute.  There are many native cultures where gays are considered holy, having a special and unique connection with Spirit that straights can never have or relate to.  Did you know that that was the case with the Native American culture?  It's true.  It is only the western European culture that corrupted this knowledge and turned being gay into something "unnatural".  Unfortunately fear and greed are powerful motivators to destroy what is not understood, and understandably there is anger and even hatred that result from such oppression.

But to be angry and to find fault makes us just as much a victim.  There are times when this is appropriate, but there are times when all we are doing is seeing something that is only there because we want it to be there (like "man" in "human"), and we are just playing our own part in spreading the disease of negative thoughts.  If Oprah was here and was reading this, seeing us twist "I'm not gay" into a statement that she is against gays, I'm sure she would be hurt by it.  You can have any belief about someone that you want from the President to the Pope, and with that belief in place, you will see the evidence that will confirm your belief.  Does Oprah's support for Crash over BBM also confirm your belief that she's against gays?  Or does it say that she is strongly against racial tolerance?  I am not trying to change your opinion of Oprah, you will see the person you believe she is, my point is that you chose this perspective and you own it.  I don't think Oprah is either positive or negative for saying she is not gay, regardless of whether she is or not.

I've always wondered what the world would be like if everyone told the "naked" truth.  Where people say they're not gay because they're not gay and no one cares if they are or aren't.  Where politicians say we're not going to give you a tax break because we'd rather give it to ourselves, or that we're invading a country because there are political and commercial advantages in doing so.  The words "democracy" and "freedom" have become depressingly distasteful to me, they are lies that only those that are on the side of might see as truth.

I don't want to play this game any more.  I don't want to believe something simply because it "supports my cause", and I don't think that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  The friends that I call out for are the ones that choose neither to lash out, nor to lash out at those that would lash out.  Some may see this post as a challenge to them.  That's ok, it's not my intention, but maybe it's "right" that they're challenged.  I hope this gives them something to think about.

I am trying, to the best of my limited human abilities, to turn away from all criticisms or concerns over what others may say or do, but I admit that I have chosen a difficult road to tread, and it seems so incredibly difficult to not fall from the path, or from grace.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline David

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2006, 07:56:16 am »
My other president is Martin Sheen....

You and me both!     I'd vote for him to be the real President any day!

Granted the President Bartlett character may not reflect his (Sheens) own views 100%, but I can't see Sheen being in a role that he disagreed with what the character was saying.

Oops, sorry for derailing the thread!    :-X

Offline David

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Re: Forced "Out"
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2006, 08:26:49 am »
Forced outing?     Define Outing?

If a Celebrity is out at Gay nightclubs seen kissing another guy, then he has already opened that door.   

But if a person has kept his/her sexual identity secret and hidden  from ALL prying eyes and then some reporter climbs a fence and takes pictures of you smooching in your house that is terrible.

Public figures are public figures.   Whether your the President getting a blowjob in the oval office or a Celebrity getting caught with a Prostitute in West Hollywood.   You live under a microscope.   Hell, Jake can't scratch his ass in public without a press release!


Yes, the media makes WAY too big a deal of it.  But think of their motives.  SELLING magazines!   D'uh!    If the public didn't buy them, then this stuff wouldn't be newsworthy.

Getting back to Celebrities, I am amazed that Rock Hudson kept his gay lifestyle as secret as he did.     Liberace?  Charles Nelson Riley?  Paul Linde?   All obvioulsy gay, but when your fans love ya, they don't care.

When I read of Celebrities after they pass away and it is made known they were gay, I aways wonder, were they happy?   Did they get to live and love as themselves?   

Truth is, we do look up to Celebrities (or politicians) that we admire.     I am happy when I see people like Ellen or Rosie come out.  I think "good for them!"    But in this cruel world, there are also so many narrow minded biggots that will say:"Oh he/she is Gay?  What a waste!".   

When everyone in the world knows a gay person personally, then perhaps the bigotry and intolerance will go away.  Then "Coming out" or being "Forced out" will no longer be a media event.