Author Topic: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown  (Read 135222 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2009, 07:08:56 pm »
1) I am puzzled as to why you continue to conflate an beauty contest with an entire nation. "Miss USA" represents no one but the people who put on, run, or sponsor that pageant.

And I wonder why you believe that when something is advertised as a Miss USA pageant that they're not meant to represent anything.

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2) Prejean told Lavandeira that for HER "marriage" is between a man and a woman - I take that to mean, she will not be marrying a woman in the near future. Prejean said nothing about Lavandeira's own choices. Seems glaringly obvious to me.

Let me remind you of her own words:  "...and, you know what, in my country and in, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman..."

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3) Prejean said that she was glad she lived in the USA where we have a choice (in the marriage matter). We do, there are several states which now allow same sex marriage.

"Several" states?  Out of 50?  C'mon Bill that's really reaching.  And considering California itself recently voted against it quite infamously, I think it's quite right to say the exact opposite.  That the majority of Americans don't  have this right.  So she is "technically" incorrect.


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2009, 07:32:42 pm »
1)And I wonder why you believe that when something is advertised as a Miss USA pageant that they're not meant to represent anything.

2)Let me remind you of her own words:  "...and, you know what, in my country and in, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman..."

3) "Several" states?  Out of 50?  C'mon Bill that's really reaching.  And considering California itself recently voted against it quite infamously, I think it's quite right to say the exact opposite.  That the majority of Americans don't  have this right.  So she is "technically" incorrect.



1)  :laugh: Anyone can create a pageant and call it what you wish, and if you have enough sponsors with deep enough pockets, it can gain publicity. But that doesn't mean that the winner of the pageant represents anyone other than those who gain directly from the pageant. Representation in a Republic is only done by elected officials or their legally appointed stand in.

2) "in my country", did Prejean mean to refer to the US as a whole? or Prejean's own circle of family, church, friends and community?

I caught her words as well when I listened to the You Tube several times. I view them within the context of her entire statement where she rejoices in marriage "choices" and her subsequent statements to the media, so it is clear to me that in that regard the word "country" is a misspeak. 

Robert E Lee referred to his home state of Virginia as his "country" when he declared he would not fight against Virginia when declining Lincoln's offer to command Union armies in early 1861 - the Civil War would have been over by that summer if Lee had assumed command of the Union's armies.

I think that if Prejean wished to comment that in her opinion same sex marriage was wrong for everyone, she could have easily said that clearly. As it was, she offered a type of tolerance that was not offered to those who disagreed with her. As I said earlier, the person who came across as an angry bigot, was Lavandeira, not Prejean.

3) Prejean said nothing about the "majority" of Americans having choice, but they technically do. Under the federal system, anyone can establish residency in another state, if someone from say CA who wished to marry a same sex partner wished to do that, they could. CA is under no obligation to recognize that out of state same sex marriage, yet, but it is still technically a marriage in the other state.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2009, 07:50:49 pm »
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiTCZupFCvc[/youtube]

Miss California Responds on Campbell Brown

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2009, 08:02:33 pm »
1)  :laugh: Anyone can create a pageant and call it what you wish, and if you have enough sponsors with deep enough pockets, it can gain publicity. But that doesn't mean that the winner of the pageant represents anyone other than those who gain directly from the pageant. Representation in a Republic is only done by elected officials or their legally appointed stand in.

From the Miss USA website:

although some women compete in both Miss USA and Miss America, the two systems are completely separate. Miss USA goes on to represent her country at the Miss Universe competition.

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2) "in my country", did Prejean mean to refer to the US as a whole? or Prejean's own circle of family, church, friends and community?

  ::)  I mean, it's such common usage to refer to your circle of family and friends as a 'country'.  C'mon Bill again, you're really reaching.

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I think that if Prejean wished to comment that in her opinion same sex marriage was wrong for everyone, she could have easily said that clearly. As it was, she offered a type of tolerance that was not offered to those who disagreed with her. As I said earlier, the person who came across as an angry bigot, was Lavandeira, not Prejean.

Um, no, Miss CA came across as the bigot, not Perez.  He came across at being really angry at a bigot.

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3) Prejean said nothing about the "majority" of Americans having choice, but they technically do. Under the federal system, anyone can establish residency in another state, if someone from say CA who wished to marry a same sex partner wished to do that, they could. CA is under no obligation to recognize that out of state same sex marriage, yet, but it is still technically a marriage in the other state.

Again, reaching reeeeeeeeeeeeaaally far this time, Bill.  Basically you're saying she's "technically" correct that we all have choice in this country because if you have 2nd class citizenship where you live and don't like it, you can just move.  ::)

Gosh, so why are gays trying to get marriage rights in the country?  They can all just move.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2009, 08:22:21 pm »
From the Miss USA website:

although some women compete in both Miss USA and Miss America, the two systems are completely separate. Miss USA goes on to represent her country at the Miss Universe competition.

1)  ::)  I mean, it's such common usage to refer to your circle of family and friends as a 'country'.  C'mon Bill again, you're really reaching.

2) Again, reaching reeeeeeeeeeeeaaally far this time, Bill.  Basically you're saying she's "technically" correct that we all have choice in this country because if you have 2nd class citizenship where you live and don't like it, you can just move.  ::)


I will defer to your superior knowledge of "pageantry", but I can assure you that very few Americans believe that Miss USA or Miss America represent them.  :)

 There is reaching and there is "REACHING". In this case, Prejean immediately qualified her remarks and has subsequently continued to NOT opine that same sex marriage should be illegal. So, I am giving her a small "reach" and a small benefit of a doubt. However, if she had unqualifiedly stated she was against same sex marriage, we would be having a different conversation.

IMO the only way for your point to be valid is to assume that she DID NOT know at the time of her initial statement that same sex marriage is now available in a handful of states. If she believed that same sex marriage was illegal in all 50 states, then your point is valid.

And as far as the Lavandeira calling Prejean names such as C*** AND B****, that is not a reflection of justifiable or excusable outrage, it is simply a reflection of an arrogant mentality that is not interested in dialog.

In the final analysis, at least for me, I think that there is only so much that can reasonably be said about the opinions or outbursts of beauty pageant contestants and gossip bloggers. Add up their IQ's and give the money to charity. They have both had their Warholian 15 + minutes of fame, and they both should be grateful to live in a country that gives mediocrities such opportunities.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2009, 08:23:39 pm »
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiTCZupFCvc[/youtube]

Miss California Responds on Campbell Brown

I notice she avoided the question that the previous Miss CA, an ordained pastor, told her she was wrong about the bible.  She skipped over that and went on to say she was 'true' to her faith.  She doesn't acknowledge at all she is wrong about her faith or what the bible says.

How embarrassing for her that her ignorance is showing.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2009, 08:27:54 pm »
I will defer to your superior knowledge of "pageantry", but I can assure you that very few Americans believe that Miss USA or Miss America represent them.  :)

Oh, I agree, but unfortunately, we're not everyone.

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There is reaching and there is "REACHING". In this case, Prejean immediately qualified her remarks and has subsequently continued to NOT opine that same sex marriage should be illegal. So, I am giving her a small "reach" and a small benefit of a doubt. However, if she had unqualifiedly stated she was against same sex marriage, we would be having a different conversation.

Called 'damage control'.

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IMO the only way for your point to be valid is to assume that she DID NOT know at the time of her initial statement that same sex marriage is now available in a handful of states. If she believed that same sex marriage was illegal in all 50 states, then your point is valid.

So, she's just ignorant and a bigot?

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And as far as the Lavandeira calling Prejean names such as C*** AND B****, that is not a reflection of justifiable or excusable outrage, it is simply a reflection of an arrogant mentality that is not interested in dialog.

He did not call her that onstage.  It wasn't until after.  And honestly, Bill is there any chance of dialogue with someone believes you don't deserve the same rights as they?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2009, 08:35:12 pm »

1) So, she's just ignorant and a bigot?

2)  And honestly, Bill is there any chance of dialogue with someone believes you don't deserve the same rights as they?


1) I don't know, but I do  think that there are groups of people who are assuming a great deal about her, with few facts, in order to demonize her. As I said, I am giving her, because of her qualified statements, a small benefit of the doubt.

2) The question assumes that they understand that we are talking about "rights", they genuinely may not understand this, and may upon understanding change their minds. But, the tactics and outbursts of people like Lavandeira make this process MUCH more difficult.

karen1129

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2009, 09:31:00 pm »
Oh, she'll be fine.
 ;)

Hell, she can become the spokesperson for the Proposition 8 people.

 :laugh:

injest

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2009, 09:48:55 pm »
You can have a different opinion Jess.  Doesn't mean a differing opinion can't be bigoted.

Let's put her words another way and you tell me if she's bigoted or not.

"I am glad black people have the choice to vote in this country, but I personally, no offense to anyone, think voting should only belong to white people, that's the way I was raised."

She smiles, the crowd applauds.  ::)

I think it is a mistake to compare race with sexual orientation. (feel free to call me bigoted)