Author Topic: Christian Domestic Discipline  (Read 72777 times)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2011, 10:21:38 pm »
Let me be clear. I'm quite aware that there isn't a one-size-fits-all model for conventional religious family life; for that you might want to address an atheist who's fond of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and cute references comparing a belief in God with a belief in Santa Claus.  

Marcia! Are you saying Santa Claus doesn't exist?  >:(

 ;)  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2011, 10:25:41 pm »
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - 1992 Iowa fundraising letter opposing a state equal-rights amendment ("Equal Rights Initiative in Iowa Attacked", Washington Post, 23 August 1992)

At Pride events I used to see vendors selling buttons that said something close to, "Sorry I haven't been in church. I've been practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian."

 8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2011, 10:35:47 pm »
At Pride events I used to see vendors selling buttons that said something close to, "Sorry I haven't been in church. I've been practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian."

 8)

Maybe they were.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2011, 12:07:00 am »
I'm sorry crayons but I think you're just splitting hairs here.  Colter has already said that women shouldn't vote because they elect democratic presidents.  Rush coined a term to easily dismiss any woman who actually speaks about women's rights or who is determined about women's rights "feminazi".  They are already dismissive of women.  They don't have to be specific about who is head of the family.  It is automatically implied from their rhetoric.

I guess if you R E A L L Y stretch you can get that interpretation from what he said.    IMO, what he's saying is blatant, women who call themselves feminists are about murdering children and satanism.  There is NO 'legitimate' feminism, IOW.  Again, tarring and feathering a term that women use to further their cause.  Making 'feminisim' an ugly word no one wants to associate with and therefore further splintering groups who work for women's rights.

If the problem is making feminism an ugly word that no one wants to associate with, then you could as easily blame plenty of young women who wouldn't listen to Rush in a million years -- women with good educations and career plans and the assumption of equality, who associate the F-word with their mothers, with unshaven legs, with sexless man-hating, or whatever. It's stupid, I know, but there you have it. In my mind -- and, seemingly, yours -- "feminist" and "person who supports equal rights for women" are more or less synonymous. But to a lot of people on both sides of the aisle, they're not.

Does that mean I'm saying that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk are wonderful crusaders for equal rights? No no no no no. They're by no means friends of feminism, or women. All I'm saying is that the idea that women and men are not equal is so passé, even in conservative circles, that it's not cool to say so. And that few people even see things that way, in such blunt terms, these days. Does that mean that everybody is now totally enlightened feminists? Hell no. They just don't see women as being SO unequal that they have to submit to their husbands.

Maybe it's the equivalent of a racist who isn't happy to have a black president yet still would not teach his children that black people shouldn't be allowed to use the public pool. We haven't made total progress, but we have made SOME progress. Also, most people, even religious conservatives, have high hopes for their daughters and want them to be successful. If you asked religious conservatives whether they want their daughter to be a doctor, say, versus a housewife who totally submits to her husband, I would guess that 90 percent of them would choose the former.

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What it relates to is that such people are extremely isolated.  They live in a very homogeneous society and they don't have any other influences other than what they grew up with.  And while they don't have to, they can be easily influenced by that society into thinking that their way is right and everyone else is the problem.  I'm glad you grew up that way crayons.  My friends did not.  And I meet more people like them, than I do people like you.

Well, yes. I think part of the issue here is that you live in a red state that's not really known for its educational system and I live in a blue state (historically speaking, anyway) whose schools tend to rank high. So if to a worm in an apple all the world is apple, you and I definitely see different apples. (NOTE: In comparing the public school systems, I hope you understand that I'm not talking about your education vs. mine, I'm talking about the acquaintances you're referring to who are culturally isolated.)

But again, I have allowed that there are some isolated families who aren't reached by modern culture. Again, everything under the sun. So, yes, there are some people who live pretty sequestered lives. But I don't think the average conservative Christian family teaches this to their kids.

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So why doesn't anyone dissuade them?  Yes, you can get divorced.  No, you don't need a man.  Because the people around them believe what they do, too.

Have you ever had any luck telling a friend she was in a stupid relationship and should get out of it? Personally, I never have. And I've had (and have) plenty of friends in stupid relationships. And when I was in stupid relationships, my friends didn't talk me out of them, either.

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But that doesn't explain Palin though, does it?

I'm not sure why I have to offer a separate explanation for the electability of somebody who's not actually even running for office, but yes, indeed, it does explain Palin. If people are going to vote for Michele Bachmann, they're going to vote for Palin -- not that they're identical; Bachmann is far more qualified but has scarier views. But the point is, if far-right conservative Christians love (and believe me, they do LOVE) Bachmann, they would not have a problem with Palin being female if she were to run. Far from it; on the contrary, her femaleness would be a plus, partly because they think she's hot, partly because it's an "in your face" to lefties who, they are fully aware, consider them sexist. And they don't want to be seen as sexist because, as I said, sexism isn't cool, even in conservativeland.

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Does it have to be, though?  You do recall how the Mormon Church involved itself in Prop 8 in California, right?  You do recall Dubya courting the religious right and promptly started doing away with funding to Planned Parenthood, outlawing types of abortion, signing into law the religious initiatives, right?  I'm in Texas, I don't have to tell you what the state school board did to the textbooks and history.  I just read a story the other day of yet another school having to be ordered to take down the 10 commandments.  There doesn't have to be a dictator in power.

Wait, am I now being challenged to defend everything the religious right has ever done? I thought we were just talking about women's equality. Anyway, yes, obviously, there are a lot of people in the United States who are conservative Christians, and yes, they do have a certain degree of political influence. Do I equate that with the United States being on the brink of a revolution that could anytime in the foreseeable future catapult a clergyman into control and turn the country into a theocracy? In a word, no.

BTW, the fact that you read about a school being ordered to take DOWN the 10 Commandments, rather than a school being ordered to put UP the 10 Commandments, supports my point.



« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 10:06:13 am by serious crayons »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2011, 12:30:54 am »
That statement was in response to more than one post here.

Don't remember seeing those, but OK then!  :)

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Of course not every religious household teaches the whole party line about female submission.  Is that what you wanted to hear?

I don't think I particularly "wanted to hear" anything. Just expressing my views, just like everybody here.

But no, I'm afraid my views went a bit beyond what you're stating there. Obviously not every religious household teaches female submission. For example, my son's friend's mother is a rabbi, so I would guess that her household, though presumably religious, does not teach female submission.

But beyond that, what I'm saying is that, even among conservative Christian households, very few (note -- not capitalized!  :)) teach female submission in any explicit way.

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 But there are more than a few who do, all-caps or otherwise.

Ooops! Sorry Marcia, I forgot that you don't like to see any words in all caps, even if it's just one word in a sentence. From now on, I'll try really hard to remember to avoid using them (see above!  :)) and instead to use italics when I'm addressing you and want to emphasize a particular word. It takes a couple of extra keystrokes, but it's so worth it if it means not raising hackles.

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 It's an idea that isn't consistent with Western culture any longer; that's why it has to be prettied up with imaginative translations like 'submission' equaling 'respect.'  And yes, they do pay lip service to equality for women but there's a whole lot less there than meets the ear.  Plenty of people who oppose equal rights for both women and gays insist up and down that they 'love the fair sex' and/or 'have nothing against The Homosexuals.'  IMO it's more than a little naive to take that at face value.

Well, thank goodness I'm not being labeled "more than a little naive" by you. Because no, in fact, I don't take statements like "love the fair sex" or "nothing against The Homosexuals" at face value. Since I have now been discussing my mostly left-leaning views on BetterMost for -- what? at least three years now -- and had really hoped I hadn't come across as a complete idiot during that time, I was thinking that by now most people would understand a point that was a bit more nuanced than that, especially since I've been trying in the past six or eight posts to describe it in more specific terms.




Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2011, 10:18:03 am »
If the problem is making feminism an ugly word that no one wants to associate with, then you could as easily blame plenty of young women who wouldn't listen to Rush in a million years -- women with good educations and career plans and the assumption of equality, who associate the F-word with their mothers, with unshaven legs, with sexless man-hating, or whatever. It's stupid, I know, but there you have it. In my mind -- and, seemingly, yours -- "feminist" and "person who supports equal rights for women" are more or less synonymous. But to a lot of people on both sides of the aisle, they're not.

That's why no longer participate in, or donate to, campaigns to keep abortion safe and legal. I don't even click "like" for these organizations on Facebook.  

Not that I don't support keeping abortion safe and legal, but younger women have sent a very clear message to older women that they want nothing to do with feminism and if abortion isn't a feminist issue than nothing is. I've heard more than once that feminism is a dinosaur anyway because "all the battles have been won", and I'm quite willing to bow to the superior wisdom and experience of 20somethings on that score.  If they turn out to be wrong about all the battles being won it will be a rude shock and might wake them up -- or it might not, as long as they still get to shave their legs -- but they won't want any input from older women anyway.  So to hell with it.  

Remember now, I'm just expressing my views like everybody else here.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2011, 10:53:37 am »
Anyone heard of the Full Quiver movement?  They believe in having a "full quiver" of children: an archery metaphor, meaning as many children as the woman's body can produce.  Their website's Articles section includes a paragraph from a Newsweek story:

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It’s hardly a typical scene from the suburbs. The Bortel home outside San Antonio, Tex., counts 12 members—parents David and Suzanne and their 10 children, ranging from 13 months to 15 (the 20-year-old married and moved away)—all crammed into a four-bedroom house that trembles constantly with activity. Everything revolves around the home: Dad works there, the kids are schooled there, the youngest three were born there.

From this account, Mrs. Bortel would have had an average of one pregnancy every two years for a period of two decades. Or looking at it another way -- pregnant for 9 out of every 24 months.

Other links on their site: "The Army of God" (video clips from FOX via Rachel Scott, "subscriber and author of the book 'Birthing God's Mighty Warriors' ", "Birth Dearth" (the planet is underpopulated), "Counter-Contraception", "When Your Quiver Overflows (from The Patriarch's Path by Mrs. Stacy McDonald)" and "Ten Great Reasons To Have Another Child", by Steve Mosher.



Its mirror image is the "No Longer Quivering" group, comprised of women who have left the movement, some after years of serial pregnancies had ruined their health. Their website has a number of more memoirs, some about the Quiverfull movement and others about this kind of "traditional" family life in general,  at http://nolongerquivering.com/nlqstories/


The site recommends three books:


Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

Quivering Daughters by Hillary McFarland


Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce.

Probably feminist lesbian witches, the lot of 'em !
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 01:57:05 pm by Marge_Innavera »

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2011, 10:58:44 am »
Anyone heard of the Full Quiver movement?  They believe in having a "full quiver" of children: an archery metaphor, meaning as many children as the woman's body can produce.  Their website's Articles section includes a paragraph from a Newsweek story:

From this account, Mrs. Bortel would have had an average of one pregnancy every two years for a period of two decades.

Other links on their site: "The Army of God" (video clips from FOX via Rachel Scott, "subscriber and author of the book 'Birthing God's Mighty Warriors' ", "Birth Dearth" (the planet is underpopulated), "Counter-Contraception", "When Your Quiver Overflows (from The Patriarch's Path by Mrs. Stacy McDonald)" and "Ten Great Reasons To Have Another Child", by Steve Mosher.



Its mirror image is the "No Longer Quivering" group, comprised of women who have left the movement, some after years of serial pregnancies had ruined their health. Their website has a number of more memoirs, some about the Quiverfull movement and others about this kind of "traditional" family life in general,  at http://nolongerquivering.com/nlqstories/


The site recommends three books:


Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

Quivering Daughters by Hillary McFarland


Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce.

Probably feminist lesbian witches, the lot of 'em !


There is a "reality tv" show that follows one such family.  They are the Duggars, and the show is called 19 Kids & Counting".  I also believe all the kids' names start with "j".




Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2011, 11:28:20 am »
That's why no longer participate in, or donate to, campaigns to keep abortion safe and legal. I don't even click "like" for these organizations on Facebook.  

Not that I don't support keeping abortion safe and legal, but younger women have sent a very clear message to older women that they want nothing to do with feminism. I've heard that feminism is a dinosaur anyway because "all the battles have been won" more than once, and I'm quite willing to bow to the superior wisdom and experience of 20somethings.  If they turn out to be wrong about all the battles being won it will be a rude shock and might wake them up -- or it might not, as long as they still get to shave their legs -- but they won't want any input from older women anyway.  So to hell with it.

Some websites about/by young feminists:

http://feministing.com/

http://www.thedailyfemme.com/femme/

http://www.now.org/programs/yf/taskforce/

http://bitchmagazine.org/

http://jezebel.com/

Just to clarify my own views, I was referring to some young women, not all or even necessarily a majority. And I meant that they disliked the word "feminist," not the principles behind it. Years on years ago, I talked to Kim Gandy, who later became president of NOW, about this very issue. Her take was that many or most young women actually were feminists, whether they embraced the word or not.

That said, there are plenty of young women who have no problem whatsoever with the word and very actively support women's rights. I do not agree that "younger women have sent a very clear message to older women" that they don't believe in equal rights or think all the battles have been won.

Here's one BetterMost woman, not in her 20s, explaining why she believes in equal rights for women but doesn't consider herself a feminist: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,32656.msg488241.html#msg488241
 
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Remember now, I'm just expressing my views like everybody else here.

Obviously. That's what we're here for.



Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2011, 11:30:20 am »
There is a "reality tv" show that follows one such family.  They are the Duggars, and the show is called 19 Kids & Counting".  I also believe all the kids' names start with "j"

I once heard from a therapist that having all the kids' names start with the same letter can be a red flag for sexual abuse.