Author Topic: My 8th viewing..  (Read 5129 times)

Offline j.U.d.E.

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My 8th viewing..
« on: April 06, 2006, 12:36:59 pm »
I've seen BBM again on April 4th. I have random comments and questions. Some are impossible questions or old questions, but I’ll go ahead anyway (not in exact order..):

* What would have happened, if Ennis and Jack hadn't been the only ones looking for work at Aguirre's, or what would have happened to Ennis, had Jack not been there? Do you think Ennis would have found out about his true self?
* I realised again how much I like the whole silent opening! From the very first note of Gustavo Santaolallas score to when Ennis and Jack enter Aguirre's trailer.
* Why is Jack carrying some of the sheep? Are they hurt?
* I can’t look at the following scenes: Jack dragging one sheep backwards for ages! POOR sheep!! The scene were Ennis gets beaten on the street and the scene were Jack gets beaten (real or not)
* What’s the thing with the can-opener. We hear Jack say he’s good at it and then obviously he isn’t? Why are we given this information?
* What else is Ennis mumbling besides “Fuck it” when he comes back injured after the bear-incident. He says something, when he passes Jack to sit down next to the fire, doesn't he?
* I’m each time more surprised at Ennis’ reaction after the 1st tent scene. He rides off in anger(?) at first, but then comes back all calm, stands, then crouches next to Jack saying the “this is a one-shot thing we’ve got going” etc “I’m not queer” “Me neither” and so on. I love that moment, but what happened to Ennis, what ‘changed’ his mind. I mentioned this before, but isn’t that at least part of a moment where he realises he’s got some sort of feeling for Jack. Would he have come back otherwise? He could've just left, weren’t it for the salary he would lose. Although he’s obviously in complete denial about it, he could just as easily have never uttered another word to Jack.. Hmm..
* I like fact that we see Ennis washing himself naked except the hat and Jack washing his clothes naked, except the boots..
* I like the scene after the 2nd tent scene, when Ennis and Jack are fooling around and both horses and the mule are watching..
* I like the way Ennis says “very good” after Jack sang like a casserole..
* Did Aguirre invent the ‘worse storm’ to get Ennis and Jack down from BBM early, because he didn’t like what he saw (through his binocular)
* The scene with Ennis and Jack fighting after the “Time to go, Cowboy” (another line I like!) – we all know Ennis gets aggressive, because he doesn’t know how to handle his frustration or express his feelings, so my feeling is, he get's aggressive here because it the moment where he realizes that soon he’s going to see Jack for the very last time (btw, that punch hurts, every time I see it - weird sound).
* I had the impression the ‘clown’ knew instantly what Jack wanted. Did he? Had it happen to him before?
* I’m always intrigued by how quickly Ennis is all ‘dressed-up’ again, after the wild reunion-kiss..
* I saw another furtive glance from Jack at Randall, just when Jack is standing up after he asks LaShawn to dance.
* Did Alma Jr know (she must have overheard her mother’s "Jack Twist? Jack Nasty!" She must have heard, just as everyone else in the house (i.e. Monroe))
* Why is Jack asking Ennis whether he found anyone else to marry? Why would he ask that?
* Lureen on the phone with Ennis – her answer as to how Jack died is so totally ‘learned by heart’ as if it was the ‘official’ answer when people ask about Jack’s death. I think when she tells Ennis that Jack wanted to be buried on BBM and she said she didn’t know why (his favourite place, but probably a pretend-place Jack invented..) and Ennis answers that that’s where he and Jack stayed in the summer of 1963, I think that’s the moment when Lureen understands! The tiny unh! Lureen utters and then the fact that she goes on telling Ennis about visiting Jack’s parents, makes it clear to me.. well, that that’s when she realises that the ‘rumors’ where true.. and that there is no need anymore to get angry, really or to keep pretending. Maybe she wasn’t as ‘cold’ as she seemed to be and by telling Ennis what happened to the rest of the ashes (and that he should visit Jack's parents), was to grant Jack his last wish, because she did indeed love him.. Eh.. is that too far fetched? Anyway, I think it’s beautiful.
* I still hate the fact that Jack's ashes were divided... *shudder*
* It seems that a lot of people ‘knew’ or could have known about Jack and Ennis (Aguirre, the clown, Alma, Monroe, Lureen, her parents, Jack's parents.. etc), that’s why I’m tending more and more towards Jack having been murdered, though I don’t really want to know..
* I like Jack’s mother ‘butting in’ when John Twist keeps talking about things that are obviously hurting Ennis.
* I might have seen wrong, but in the scene where Ennis discovers the shirts, it looks like the blood stains are on the blue shirt, but that can’t be. Right?
* At the very end, I like to see Ennis buttoning up Jack’s blue shirt, sort of to protect him from further harm. Gives me a warm feeling inside.

Praise:
* I just feel like mentioning it again, but I think Michelle Williams is brilliant! I like a lot the scene where you see her in the kitchen (after Ennis and Jack stayed away the night in the motel) with the cup of cold coffee in front of her. She looks so tired, worn out, sad – you can feel the sting of the salty dried up tear in her eye, which she wipes away the moment she hears Ennis entering.
* And I LOVE Roberta Maxwell! Did not know her before, but she's amazing! I love her line 'You come back and visit us again'.. You taste the withold desperation. Very sad.

Random comments:
* I don’t cry in films (don’t ask.. I don’t know why), but there were moments on Tuesday night, where I almost forgot to breathe..
Funny (or weird), I was so immersed in the film, that I was completely taken by surprise to hear everyone speak French, when I left the cinema.
* I like the fact that here, on PT and BBM nobody seems to mix up Jack and Jake (very few times have I seen it happening)
* Jack and Ennis' birth year must have been around 1944, that's in the middle of the 2nd WW.. just an odd comment.

Ultimate question:
* I know it's bee explained a trillion times, but I still don't know what "pup tent on the QT" means… What's a pup tent? And what does QT stand for?.. Sorry..

~ j U d E
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*15 jan 1929 - †04 apr 1968 | *04 apr 1979 - † 22 jan 2008 | *04 aug 1961 -

Offline DeeDee

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2006, 01:04:47 pm »
I'll answer what I know.  There is blood on the blue shirt because Jack was wiping Ennis' nose when it was bleeding. You see him trying to sop up the blood.

"pup tent on the qt"  means that the herder has to sleep with the sheep, so he uses a tiny tent for one without the forest rangers knowing.  So he needs to fold it up as soon as he gets up in the morning.

Also, I said the same thing about the punch my fifth or sixth time.. it had a very strange sound, when he was hit.  I'm wondering if he hit him for real, not intentionally of course.  That whole scene breaks my heart.  I could cry for Ennis just thinking about it.

I don't think Ennis rides off, after the first tent scene in anger.  He looks terrified like he's trying to figure out what the hell he's gonna do now.

Hope I answered at least some things.
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Offline newyearsday

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2006, 01:50:06 pm »
Oh Jude! There are too many questions here for me to take on...maybe we can each take one or two in turn?? That's an idea. I'll take a couple of the early ones, but first I had to say that these points of yours made me laugh out loud:

*   I like the scene after the 2nd tent scene, when Ennis and Jack are fooling around and both horses and the mule are watching..
* I like the way Ennis says “very good” after Jack sang like a casserole..


So adorable--I am going tonight for my 13th and last theater showing (sigh), and I will look for the mule and horse to be watching them. And, I happen to know that this "sing like a casserole" saying is only a French or a European one!! We don't say it over here across the pond. I have heard it said "sing like a pot" also. It's so cute.

So I will take the 2 questions:
Quote
Why is Jack carrying some of the sheep? Are they hurt?
I think that is the idea, that one of them (I've always just thought it was supposed to be one sheep) is hurt, and Jack is carrying it. It makes sense on the practical level b/c you see him picking something--a spinter? out of the sheep's hoof once they are up on the mountain, so it seems that is why he was carrying it. But on a deeper level, it shows how much of a heart Jack has in him--to carry a 45 to 60 pound live animal up a mountain is no easy feat. Jack obviously has a very soft and giving heart and this is the very first sign of it. We will see it many more times with Ennis over the course of the movie, but this is to show that it's normal for Jack to reach out and help another in pain, or in trouble...(even his stopping to help Randall and LaShawn in their broken down truck is a sign of that part of him. He is just awesome!!)

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  What’s the thing with the can-opener. We hear Jack say he’s good at it and then obviously he isn’t? Why are we given this information?
I think this is here to show us that Jack feels good about himself even though he isn't so great at many technical/skill-based things. He's not a great shot, not a great bullrider, and not great at using a can-opener, but it never stops him from trying!! That's one of his greatest and most endearing qualities. Jake said about the character of Jack Twist something like, "He tries really hard. That's who Jack is to me."

These two qualities of Jack's--his generous heart and his willingness to keep trying despite failures--make him one of my most favorite characters in all of literary or film history. Jack is just a beautiful, beautiful soul.

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Offline David

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2006, 02:20:03 pm »
Each time I see it, the scene where Jack meets Randall, just strikes me that Jack is not interested in him.   He isn't even looking at him, he is busy brushing some cigarrette ashes off his coat.   Granted, Randall can't keep his eyes off of Jack (can you blame him?)   but Jack seems real indifferent to Randall, even outside on the bench.   Jack looks frozen when Randall comes on to him.   No excitement at all.   

Offline serious crayons

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2006, 02:21:06 pm »
Many good questions, Jude! I'll take this one:

*   What would have happened, if Ennis and Jack hadn't been the only ones looking for work at Aguirre's, or what would have happened to Ennis, had Jack not been there? Do you think Ennis would have found out about his true self?

In my opinion, no. I think a magical combination of factors came together on Brokeback Mountain. Two men working together in beautiful isolation all summer, both are gay, both find each other attractive, they become close friends, and Jack is willing to make the first move sexually. Without all of those elements, I think Ennis would have married Alma, maybe gotten divorced, maybe married Cassie. He probably would have been bored and dissatisfied but never felt that anything else was open to him. He might have been attracted to other men but he would have stoically suppressed his feelings, even from himself.


*   Why is Jack asking Ennis whether he found anyone else to marry? Why would he ask that?


I've wondered that, too. It seems that even after 20 years, both of them -- not just Ennis -- still don't fully comprehend the nature of their sexual orientation. To some extent, I think Jack downplays his own gayness in order not to scare off Ennis. But here he seems to genuinely think Ennis would and should get married again.

Another example is when, earlier, Ennis asks whether things between Jack and Lureen are "normal and all" and Jack shrugs and nods. I think that would have made Ennis feel more self-conscious and weird. If only Jack had been more frank, perhaps made the "do it over the phone" comment at that point.



Offline opinionista

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2006, 03:30:42 pm »
Quote
What would have happened, if Ennis and Jack hadn't been the only ones looking for work at Aguirre's, or what would have happened to Ennis, had Jack not been there? Do you think Ennis would have found out about his true self?

My guess is that he probably wouldn't. He would probably have certain feelings around men but his tendency for self denial wouldn't let him realize he was gay.

Quote
Why is Jack carrying some of the sheep? Are they hurt?
I don't know, but I read somewhere Ang Lee wanted Jake to do that. It think that was on one of Pierre answers on TOB.

Quote
What’s the thing with the can-opener. We hear Jack say he’s good at it and then obviously he isn’t? Why are we given this information?
I think the intention was to add some humor to such a sad and heartbreaking story. Jack was pretty bad at a lot of things except perhaps rodeoing.

Quote
What else is Ennis mumbling besides “Fuck it” when he comes back injured after the bear-incident. He says something, when he passes Jack to sit down next to the fire, doesn't he?
Damn mules? I can't remember

Quote
I’m each time more surprised at Ennis’ reaction after the 1st tent scene. He rides off in anger(?) at first, but then comes back all calm, stands, then crouches next to Jack saying the “this is a one-shot thing we’ve got going” etc “I’m not queer” “Me neither” and so on. I love that moment, but what happened to Ennis, what ‘changed’ his mind. I mentioned this before, but isn’t that at least part of a moment where he realises he’s got some sort of feeling for Jack. Would he have come back otherwise? He could've just left, weren’t it for the salary he would lose. Although he’s obviously in complete denial about it, he could just as easily have never uttered another word to Jack.. Hmm..

I think Ennis was already very much in love with Jack. Besides, it was his first sexual experience. And, as it happens with everyone, it probably had a strong impact on him.

Quote
Did Aguirre invent the ‘worse storm’ to get Ennis and Jack down from BBM early, because he didn’t like what he saw (through his binocular)

Probably but highly unlikely. He had the sheep to think about.

Quote
The scene with Ennis and Jack fighting after the “Time to go, Cowboy” (another line I like!) – we all know Ennis gets aggressive, because he doesn’t know how to handle his frustration or express his feelings, so my feeling is, he get's aggressive here because it the moment where he realizes that soon he’s going to see Jack for the very last time (btw, that punch hurts, every time I see it - weird sound).

In the story Ennis tells Jack  when they're at the Motel Siesta that it took a while for him to realized that he shouldn't have let him go. I know he is actually talking about the stomach ache he felt when Jack drove away but I think he began to feel bad about the idea of losing Jack when they were still on the mountain. When Jack says that line, Ennis is sitting on the ground looking sad and miserable.

Quote
I had the impression the ‘clown’ knew instantly what Jack wanted. Did he? Had it happen to him before?

I don't think he did but  someone in this board said Jack probably had a reputation within the rodeo circuit when he tries to hit on Jimbo.

Quote
I saw another furtive glance from Jack at Randall, just when Jack is standing up after he asks LaShawn to dance.

Yes! but it was more Randall than Jack.

Quote
Why is Jack asking Ennis whether he found anyone else to marry? Why would he ask that?

That question was discussed on a thread at TOB but I don't know if it was deleted. Someone said Jack was baiting Ennis to find out where he stood in Ennis life. But when he hears about Cassie, he gets jealous and comes up with the lie about having an affair with LaShawn.

Quote
Lureen on the phone with Ennis – her answer as to how Jack died is so totally ‘learned by heart’ as if it was the ‘official’ answer when people ask about Jack’s death. I think when she tells Ennis that Jack wanted to be buried on BBM and she said she didn’t know why (his favourite place, but probably a pretend-place Jack invented..) and Ennis answers that that’s where he and Jack stayed in the summer of 1963, I think that’s the moment when Lureen understands! The tiny unh! Lureen utters and then the fact that she goes on telling Ennis about visiting Jack’s parents, makes it clear to me.. well, that that’s when she realises that the ‘rumors’ where true.. and that there is no need anymore to get angry, really or to keep pretending. Maybe she wasn’t as ‘cold’ as she seemed to be and by telling Ennis what happened to the rest of the ashes (and that he should visit Jack's parents), was to grant Jack his last wish, because she did indeed love him.. Eh.. is that too far fetched? Anyway, I think it’s beautiful.


I agree with you. I think when Lureen learns Brokeback was not a pretend place she suddenly realizes Jack didn't go to Wyoming 2 or 3 times a year all by himself just to fish.

Quote
I know it's bee explained a trillion times, but I still don't know what "pup tent on the QT" means… What's a pup tent? And what does QT stand for?.. Sorry..

I still don't know what QT means but pup tent means the baby tent or small tent right?  A pup is a baby dog. I guess that's where the terms comes from.

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2006, 03:52:58 pm »
A pup tent is a small flimsy tent, just big enough for one person. "On the QT" means on the quiet -- secretly.

Interesting idea, Opinionista, about Jack asking Ennis about marriage as a way to bait him, then responding with the lie about his own fling out of jealousy. Though you'd think he could tell from Ennis' lackluster description of the relationship with Cassie that there wasn't much to be jealous of.

Offline cmr107

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2006, 04:03:42 pm »
Could Jack perhaps have asked about Ennis getting married again because he (Jack) was still married? Perhaps he felt guilty about it? Just throwin' that out there....

Offline opinionista

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2006, 04:31:57 pm »
A pup tent is a small flimsy tent, just big enough for one person. "On the QT" means on the quiet -- secretly.

Interesting idea, Opinionista, about Jack asking Ennis about marriage as a way to bait him, then responding with the lie about his own fling out of jealousy. Though you'd think he could tell from Ennis' lackluster description of the relationship with Cassie that there wasn't much to be jealous of.


Yes, but the idea wasn't mine. Someone posted that at TOB. Anyway, I thought it made sense. Perhaps, like you said, Jack knew there was nothing to be jealous of. But when that conversation happens Jack was already fed up with their relationship. He was bitter and angry. I guess he wanted to find out where he stood in Ennis life, because as we all know Ennis wouldn't commit, yet he continued to meet him at the mountain. My guess is that Jack perhaps gets mad at Ennis for keeping that women-dating charade going after so many years together, instead of being true to himself and doing something to save what they had. Perhaps Jack's real intention was to tell Ennis about Randall but then decided that it wasn't a good idea after all. He knew Ennis too well.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2006, 04:37:01 pm by opinionista »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: My 8th viewing..
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 08:47:29 pm »
Quote
What would have happened, if Ennis and Jack hadn't been the only ones looking for work at Aguirre's, or what would have happened to Ennis, had Jack not been there? Do you think Ennis would have found out about his true self?

No, I don't think so.

Quote
Why is Jack carrying some of the sheep? Are they hurt?

I think it's because in that one scene, they're crossing a creek and perhaps the sheep kept shying away and wouldn't continue so he had to carry it across the river.  Obviously if it's injured, he ain't going to carry a heavy full grown sheep the whole way up the mountain.  The lambs I figure they carried so they can keep up or because they're sick.

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What’s the thing with the can-opener. We hear Jack say he’s good at it and then obviously he isn’t? Why are we given this information?

What do you mean?  Jack worked the can opener perfectly.  ;D  He just messed up taking the lid off the can after.

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What else is Ennis mumbling besides “Fuck it” when he comes back injured after the bear-incident. He says something, when he passes Jack to sit down next to the fire, doesn't he?

'Dumbass mules' is what I heard.

Quote
Did Aguirre invent the ‘worse storm’ to get Ennis and Jack down from BBM early, because he didn’t like what he saw (through his binocular)

IMO no.  The sheep still needed to be grazed regardless of the behavior of the shepherds.

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I had the impression the ‘clown’ knew instantly what Jack wanted. Did he? Had it happen to him before?

Screenplay says no, he didn't know.

Quote
Did Alma Jr know (she must have overheard her mother’s "Jack Twist? Jack Nasty!" She must have heard, just as everyone else in the house (i.e. Monroe))

IMO no.  Look how far away the kitchen is from the living room where they're watching TV.  The two talk in a normal tone of voice until Alma starts yelling 'Get out'.  It's very unlikely they heard anything.

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It seems that a lot of people ‘knew’ or could have known about Jack and Ennis (Aguirre, the clown, Alma, Monroe, Lureen, her parents, Jack's parents.. etc), that’s why I’m tending more and more towards Jack having been murdered, though I don’t really want to know.

Aguirre knows.  The clown didn't know.  Alma knew as did Jack's parents, but IMO not Monroe, not Lureen or her parents (until the end phone call).  Aguirre may or may not blab, but he doesn't look like the gossiping type.  Jack's parents arent going to say anything and neither is Alma, so relatively speaking few people knew and these people aren't likely to blab about it.


Quote
I might have seen wrong, but in the scene where Ennis discovers the shirts, it looks like the blood stains are on the blue shirt, but that can’t be. Right?

No, there was blood on both shirts.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2006, 11:00:53 pm by delalluvia »