Author Topic: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION  (Read 38776 times)

Offline x-man

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X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« on: April 17, 2015, 01:39:04 pm »
I have a running disagreement going with Canada's only LGBT channel, OUTtv.  I would like to tell you about the issues, and get your feed back—from everyone, but especially from gay men, who are most affected by the problems I see with the channel's programming.

Canada's population is a little over 36 million.  Take 5% of that, and it doesn't leave a very large pool of people who would be interested in OUTtv, so they are always having money problems.  The CRTC (Canada's communications licencing agency, the equivalent of the American FCC) makes it difficult for  OUTtv by demanding the same percentage of Canadian content as they do for general audience networks.  LGBT-interest programs made in or about Canada just are not enough to fill that requirement, and so they constantly have problems.  Since OUTtv has a small audience in comparison with the major networks, advertisers are not easy to attract, although it does squeak by (and thank God we are spared the endless commercials for feminine hygiene products!).  Their staff, they told me, is made up of gay and straight people because they hire on the basis of who is best for the job, not specifically on orientation.  I wondered about this when I first heard about it, especially about programming, wondering if straight people could be as sensitive to issues specifically facing the LGBT world.   At any rate, I wish them well  and  every day I check their schedule for programs to watch.  In most areas they do a pretty good job—but not in one:

I am bothered, no, angered by their programs about gay men being biased to the,,,,uh....'flamboyant' edge of the gay male world.  Their programming is filled with RuPauls Drag Race, One Girl Five Gays, and the like, with frequent showings of The Bird Cage.  I took the time to go through their weekly schedule and calculate the hours given over to this kind of thing.  I then compared this with programs showing gay men as regular (if I can put it that way) men.  The former far far outweigh the latter.  We have a situation where gay men are being presented as the classic, homophobic stereotype of us from which we have suffered for a very long time.

There are two possible consequence of this.  First, its effect on the straight world.  I doubt that many straight people watch OUTtv.  And, I don't care in the least what straight people think of us.  No matter how we are portrayed to them, it won't change much.  Second is its effect on gay men, particularly on gay men uneasy with their sexual orientation.  To put it very simplistically, it is saying that if you insist on being gay you are inevitably going to end up a candidate for RuPauls.  I don't begrudge flamboyant men anything.  Having had a transgender father, such a stance on my part would be silly.  For the entire LGBT world, our struggle is a common one and we must stand together.  On the other hand,  internalized homophobia exists and is drawn from very inaccurate orientation stereotyping which is largely responsible for the suicide rate, the rate of drug dependency and other such destructive behaviour being so much higher amongst gay men than it is in the male population at large.  Should a Canadian media source mandated to serve the LGBT community add its voice to to this?

OUTtv's response to me about this was, basically, that they are more popular than ever, that they are there to make money, and that they are not 'an arbitrator of all LGBT issues.”  That doesn't quite handle it for me.  They got their licence expressly to serve the LGBT community and, as they told me, to act as a “bridge” to the world at large.  Regarding this issue they are not doing that; they are doing a great disservice.

So, what do you think, guys?  Please PLEASE let us not reopen the androphile debate, but do you see my point?


 
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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2015, 02:31:14 pm »
Hello X-man.

I understand what you're saying, you want diversity in the programing, and the network you watch is lacking in this matter.

It seems to be the same here in the states with the network LOGO, which is the gay/lesbian network I watch.   They also run shows like RuPaul and  1G5Gs, consider yourself lucky if you havne't seen "The A List", a 'reality' show that was the gay equivilent to the Real Housewives shows.  There were two series (A-List NY & A-List Dallas) and neither was really good.   On top of that, they show reruns of shows that are "gay favorites" like Designing Women or Golden Girls.

For lack of another description, you want to see shows with gay men like Jack & Ennis.  Not necessarily cowboys, but gay men who are not as flamboyant.

How many gay movies have you seen?  You could always make a list of the ones that have impressed you with their portrayals, and then send it to the station.

I can't think of many TV shows that have what you're looking for.  I know The Walking Dead introduced a gay couple like this, but we had to wait until season 5 for them to appear.



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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2015, 03:51:27 pm »
May I ask for a little more information? Could you give an example of a TV show portraying gay men as "regular men"?

I don't seek out gay-oriented programming per se, except for the occasional documentary. I've never received LOGO as part of my TV service. And I have to say that I know several men who are prominent and active in leather and bear circles who absolutely love RuPaul's Drag Race--which I've never seen, not because I object to the emphasis on the flamboyant, just because it doesn't interest me. I'd rather watch a whodunit or a police procedural.

About the last gay-themed show I deliberately sought out was Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and how many years ago was that now?

Interestingly enough, this week's episode of N.C.I.S.: New Orleans might qualify as the sort of thing you're looking for. The plot centered on the kidnapping of the infant daughter of two gay men, one of whom served in the U.S. Navy and the other of whom worked for a defense contractor. No issue was made of them being a gay couple. You could just as easily have substituted a straight couple, and it would have made no--or little--difference in the plot--and that's what made it all the more remarkable for me as I watched. In fact, if anything annoyed me about the show it actually was the use of a gay male couple in the plot. First thing I thought was, Oh, God, now that we've got gay marriage in so many states, we're going to have show after show making hay out of marriage equality just to prove how up to date they are.

This paragraph raises a couple of issues for me:

There are two possible consequence of this.  First, its effect on the straight world.  I doubt that many straight people watch OUTtv.  And, I don't care in the least what straight people think of us.  No matter how we are portrayed to them, it won't change much.  Second is its effect on gay men, particularly on gay men uneasy with their sexual orientation.  To put it very simplistically, it is saying that if you insist on being gay you are inevitably going to end up a candidate for RuPauls.  I don't begrudge flamboyant men anything.  Having had a transgender father, such a stance on my part would be silly.  For the entire LGBT world, our struggle is a common one and we must stand together.  On the other hand,  internalized homophobia exists and is drawn from very inaccurate orientation stereotyping which is largely responsible for the suicide rate, the rate of drug dependency and other such destructive behaviour being so much higher amongst gay men than it is in the male population at large.  Should a Canadian media source mandated to serve the LGBT community add its voice to to this?

I risk going off topic, but I'm going to say my piece anyway.

First, you seem to me to be expressing a concern for the effect on straight people of portrayals of gay men as flamboyant RuPaul drag queen types--but then you turn around and say you don't care what straight people think of us. Sorry, but that confuses me.

Second, I've kind of come to the personal conclusion that the influence of stereotyped portrayals of gay men in the media on internalized homophobia in gay men is exaggerated. I suspect that the influence of the attitudes of parents and other individuals in a person's life is far greater than the influence of the media. Anyway, the stories I hear of young gay men killing themselves seem to have a lot more to do with the people around them--bullying in school, and so forth--than with what they see on TV.

I'll conclude with this: If OUTtv got it's license partially on pledging to be a "bridge" to the world, and all they are showing is RuPaul stuff, then I agree with you that they are doing a disservice in not showing the diversity of gay people to the world.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline x-man

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2015, 04:51:12 pm »

It seems to be the same here in the states with the network LOGO, which is the gay/lesbian network I watch.   They also run shows like RuPaul and  1G5Gs, consider yourself lucky if you havne't seen "The A List", a 'reality' show that was the gay equivilent to the Real Housewives shows.  There were two series (A-List NY & A-List Dallas) and neither was really good.   On top of that, they show reruns of shows that are "gay favorites" like Designing Women or Golden Girls.


How many gay movies have you seen?  You could always make a list of the ones that have impressed you with their portrayals, and then send it to the station.

Good to hear from you, my favourite bear. 

I CAN'T consider myself lucky--they DID have  the various A-Lists.  I couldn't remember its name when I wrote.  I watched 5 minutes of 1 show, and couldn't stand any more.  I missed the Designing Women episode from GG.  Was it about lesbians or gay men?  I totally left lesbian portrayal out of my posting because I know nothing about it.  OUTtv is pretty fair in its time devoted to the female part of LGBT, but I have no idea of how faiir their portrayal of lesbian is.  I actually am more familiar with its coverage of transgender issues because of my father.

Regarding gay movies.  I have seen many, and have many in my collection.  (Like everyone, I watch Shelter when I am depressed.)  Some time ago I raised the issue of movies to the Programming director at OUTtv.  I sent them names and even some short reviews.  It didn't do much good.  They tried to tell me people liked seeing the same ones over and over.  I did notice when I got back from Asia that they had gotten hold of BBM--like that's a new movie for us.  I mean of course I am glad they added it, but I bet virtually every gay man who watches OUTtv has the DVD.  And I bet they had to pay an arm and a leg to buy BBM.  For the same money they probably could have bought several very good but not famous gay movies.  I asked them how much they had to pay for movies, but they said that was not public information.  I wonder why.

Is LOGO the only gay TV network in the States?  I thought Here! was one too.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz

Offline milomorris

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2015, 05:15:59 pm »
Staying firmly away from any discussion of androphilia, I have to say that I agree with much of what you say here.

This is not a problem that is faced by sexual minorities alone, but rather by any minority. It happens to blacks, latinos, asians, women in non-traditional careers, you name it. The media (TV/movie in this case) portrayals of most minorities is fraught with stereotypical characters. There are many reasons why this is the case. One of them is that writers often find it challenging to effectively sketch out characters in minority groups without tripping over stereotypes. Another is that writers don't think they are being accurate unless they include stereotypes. So what we end up with is imbalance.

African-Americans still complain about this, but many of us admit that it has gotten better...slowly...over time. For every thug or drug dealer on TV, there is a black cop or fireman. For every black homeless man, welfare recipient, or deadbeat dad, there is a black doctor, lawyer, or businessman. So its a matter of balance. Portrayals of sexual minorities in the media will balance out over time too.   
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Offline x-man

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2015, 05:40:32 pm »
May I ask for a little more information? Could you give an example of a TV show portraying gay men as "regular men"?


About the last gay-themed show I deliberately sought out was Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and how many years ago was that now?


This paragraph raises a couple of issues for me:

I risk going off topic, but I'm going to say my piece anyway.

First, you seem to me to be expressing a concern for the effect on straight people of portrayals of gay men as flamboyant RuPaul drag queen types--but then you turn around and say you don't care what straight people think of us. Sorry, but that confuses me.

Second, I've kind of come to the personal conclusion that the influence of stereotyped portrayals of gay men in the media on internalized homophobia in gay men is exaggerated. I suspect that the influence of the attitudes of parents and other individuals in a person's life is far greater than the influence of the media. Anyway, the stories I hear of young gay men killing themselves seem to have a lot more to do with the people around them--bullying in school, and so forth--than with what they see on TV.

Hi Jeff,
I KNEW I could count on you for some opposition.  :)

TV programs showing gay men as non-flamboyant?  I suggest Queer as Folk (which you refuse to watch because it might be too happy and remind you that your earlier days were not like that,  News Flash:  It wasn't like anybody's earlier days,  Shelter wasn't like anybody's coming out, but for a brief time we can imagine.  And how about Looking on HBO?  Another series that may not be available in the States is a reality show Colin and Justin.  It traces the doings of a Scottish gay  couple who go around Canada doing makeovers of houses and cabins.  They are very knowledgeable about it, they are funny,  obviously like each other very much, are in their late 30's or early 40's, AND they are muscle bears.  I don't like reality shows, I wonder why I watch it?

You caught me.  I did say I didn't care what straight people think, but at the same time seem indeed to care.  Saying that I didn't care in the least what muggles think is me beating up on myself.  How COULD I not care?  I just don't want to care.  They are 95% of the population, and they have the power.  At the same time I have been through enough homophobia that I am disgusted with myself for still playing the victim to them.  My words are braver than my heart.  A lot of my anxiety in this area is a product of my age--I went through more of it than you younger guys; the changes hadn't started.  Prime Minister Trudeau did not make his famous "The State has no business in the bedrooms of the nation" statement ushering in gay legalization in Canada until 1967.  By that time I was 29; my attitudes of and secret fears about being gay were already in place.  I doubt that most younger gay men see it all as darkly as I do.  I try to lighten up, but I am pretty well stuck with it--hence my hypersensitivity which must be obvious to everyone in spite of my attempts to disguise it.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2015, 08:47:13 pm »
I suggest Queer as Folk (which you refuse to watch because it might be too happy and remind you that your earlier days were not like that,  News Flash:  It wasn't like anybody's earlier days,

No, I don't refuse to watch it "because it might be too happy." I simply have no interest in a soap opera about pretty gay boys who are young enough to be my kids. Soap operas have never interested me. Even in the heyday of Dallas and Dynasty, I never watched either of them.

Quote
And how about Looking on HBO?

Well, you kinda got me there. I didn't used to have HBO because I refused to pay extra for a service I felt I didn't need. Now they've added it to my condo building's cable contract, and I keep forgetting that I have it without paying extra for it!  :laugh: 

Quote
Another series that may not be available in the States is a reality show Colin and Justin.

That name sounds familiar, but I can't place where I might have heard of it.

Quote
You caught me.  I did say I didn't care what straight people think, but at the same time seem indeed to care.  Saying that I didn't care in the least what muggles think is me beating up on myself.  How COULD I not care?  I just don't want to care.  They are 95% of the population, and they have the power.  At the same time I have been through enough homophobia that I am disgusted with myself for still playing the victim to them.  My words are braver than my heart.  A lot of my anxiety in this area is a product of my age--I went through more of it than you younger guys; the changes hadn't started.  Prime Minister Trudeau did not make his famous "The State has no business in the bedrooms of the nation" statement ushering in gay legalization in Canada until 1967.  By that time I was 29; my attitudes of and secret fears about being gay were already in place.  I doubt that most younger gay men see it all as darkly as I do.  I try to lighten up, but I am pretty well stuck with it--hence my hypersensitivity which must be obvious to everyone in spite of my attempts to disguise it.

I'm sure they don't, because they have no idea what it was like to live through it. They also have no idea what it was like to watch a whole generation die of AIDS.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2015, 08:51:30 pm »
(TV/movie in this case) portrayals of most minorities is fraught with stereotypical characters. There are many reasons why this is the case. One of them is that writers often find it challenging to effectively sketch out characters in minority groups without tripping over stereotypes.

I think you're certainly on to something here. If you're a writer on a "one-hour" scripted drama, where realistically you may have only 40 minutes to tell a story, I'm sure it's a lot easier to fall back on stereotypes than to develop a realistic portrayal of a minority character.

I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline x-man

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2015, 02:26:37 pm »
[quote author=Jeff Wrangler link=topic=52986.msg667544#msg667544 date=142930028

Second, I've kind of come to the personal conclusion that the influence of stereotyped portrayals of gay men in the media on internalized homophobia in gay men is exaggerated. I suspect that the influence of the attitudes of parents and other individuals in a person's life is far greater than the influence of the media. Anyway, the stories I hear of young gay men killing themselves seem to have a lot more to do with the people around them--bullying in school, and so forth--than with what they see on TV.

[/quote]


I'd like to say a bit more about this previous posting of yours.  I wonder if you might be seeing the issue with too tight a focus.  This is probably my fault; I should have been clearer,  I stand by my belief that the stereotypical way gay men are portrayed on television affects internalized homophobia.  I did not mean that ONLY a gay man's watching this directly would affect his internalized homophobia--although I do believe it exacerbates it--but that the same programs intensify the homophobia of others (family, friends, bashers) which is then picked up by the gay man,, and by others as well so the cycle is heightened, intensified.  Now the gay man we are talking about here may be the only one to see it on OUTtv, but programs like 1G5G, movies like Bird Cage and Cruising are carried by TV stations aimed at straight general audiences as well, and that is where non-gays will see and be influenced by it.  Serious crayons and I had an intense debate about this issue on a movie site in BetterMost.  She was taking me to task for seeing all of the TV and movie industry's stereotypical portrayals of gays as a giant conspiracy to frighten gays into the belief that if they were going to be gay they would inevitably live a life of misery and despair.  She convinced me to back off a bit on the conspiracy business, but I am still uneasy about it.  As to my overall belief that gender orientation stereotyping contributes directly to gay oppression and self-loathing, as Shakespeare wrote, "I am constant as the northern star, of whose true fixed and resting quality there is no fellow in the firmament."
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Offline morrobay

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Re: X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2015, 04:29:57 pm »
I say thank god for gay TV.  

How else would we lowly, unthinking, uninitiated straight white people know how to react, if a movie put out by a high-dollar Hollywood production company wasn't there to show us just exactly how we should feel and think and behave toward all the minorities...

We all just love The Bird Cage, just like all us white folk love The Help...

I especially liked the male maid in Bird Cage, what was his name again...oh yes, Agador...LOVE him...or her...whatever...

What show was that you gays were talking about?  RuPaul something?  Maybe I should watch...so I know what to say if someone should ask..........
 

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